Is the term Old Covenant ever mentioned in Scripture?

[PeteR]

And so with that, who determines how one is to interpret God's Law right now, today?

Who can tell me how to honor the Sabbath? Festival? The Law? Beyond another man's interpretation?

My answer is the Holy Spirit to each individual.

Indeed, the Holy Spirit does so, but the foundation is what we are taught in the Word. The Holy Spirit will never lead you away from the commandments.

Example: Sabbath. The Word is pretty simple: Seventh day, rest, no work, gather for convocation/fellowship/worship. Also, no fires, but many interpret that to relate to work, not food or warmth. That's it.

Anything else is something to take to the Father and ask for guidance.

 

[The Revolting Man]

Indeed, the Holy Spirit does so, but the foundation is what we are taught in the Word. The Holy Spirit will never lead you away from the commandments.

Example: Sabbath. The Word is pretty simple: Seventh day, rest, no work, gather for convocation/fellowship/worship. Also, no fires, but many interpret that to relate to work, not food or warmth. That's it.

Anything else is something to take to the Father and ask for guidance.

I have taken the prohibition on kindling a fire literally and as we heat with wood it would seem like a burden but has not been. It does make the Sabbath candle an incredibly useful thing though.

 

[steve]

There are some that say that we don’t need the leading of the Holy Spirit anymore because everything is written in the Book.
Others say that the Book is too easily misunderstood, so they just walk by the Holy Spirit.

YHWH is complicated, He gave them both and expects us to walk somehow in each at the same time.

 

[Cap]

Indeed, the Holy Spirit does so, but the foundation is what we are taught in the Word. The Holy Spirit will never lead you away from the commandments.

OK I'm good with that. I believe I am were I am because the Holy Spirit has led me here. Do you see anything wrong with that?

Example: Sabbath. The Word is pretty simple: Seventh day, rest, no work, gather for convocation/fellowship/worship. Also, no fires, but many interpret that to relate to work, not food or warmth. That's it.

Anything else is something to take to the Father and ask for guidance.

The Sabbath rest spoken of in Hebrews 4 doesn't seem to be all that complicated. And the no fires thing, really? I have an electric stove so no worries. And if so many people interpret it differently how would one know whether they are doing it right?

When people start trying to claim religious rules and regulations for others it all seems like climate change folks who preach about fossil fuel use but yet drive around in their cars and can't bring themselves to riding a bicycle or walking.

When these type things are spoken of it all just seems like bondage to me. (But hey, that's me. To use the famous words around here, you do you)

 

[PeteR]

OK I'm good with that. I believe I am were I am because the Holy Spirit has led me here. Do you see anything wrong with that?

I don't see anything wrong. The discussion, debate has been about what the Word says... I share what I believe it says. I don't recall telling anyone what they must do.. just what I see the Word saying. If that brings conviction, then its between them and the Holy Spirit.

As to fires... there is a verse in Numbers, I think, that says no kindling of fires on Shabbat. That is difficult to understand. personally, I don't thing its because God delights in cold food or cold houses... I think it has to do with work, as in splitting wood or the extra effort of starting w/o matches, etc.. He doesn't say we can't keep one going from the previous day, just no starting.

I tend toward simple logic until the Spirit gives clearer direction (that may come from the advice of a friend.)

 

[steve]

As to fires... there is a verse in Numbers, I think, that says no kindling of fires on Shabbat. That is difficult to understand. personally, I don't thing its because God delights in cold food or cold houses... I think it has to do with work, as in splitting wood or the extra effort of starting w/o matches, etc.. He doesn't say we can't keep one going from the previous day, just no starting.

In the days before the invention of the Lucifer match, rekindling a fire was real work. I have never read what methods they used, but it generally involved a lot of friction.
However, if you “banked” your fire, buried the coals in ashes, the fire rekindled itself just by brushing off the ashes and piling wood on top of them. Nobody went cold or hungry unless they failed to prepare. (Like failure to gather extra manna on the day prior to Shabbat)

 

[PeteR]

In the days before the invention of the Lucifer match, rekindling a fire was real work. I have never read what methods they used, but it generally involved a lot of friction.
However, if you “banked” your fire, buried the coals in ashes, the fire rekindled itself just by brushing off the ashes and piling wood on top of them. Nobody went cold or hungry unless they failed to prepare. (Like failure to gather extra manna on the day prior to Shabbat)

Exactly.

 

[Verifyveritas76]

Torah is a general instruction from God. My return question would be why would you treat God's instructions differently? Why would a specific instruction have less weight than a general one? Once you admit that God has instructed us to do something the burden of evidence not to do it should be very high.

This is more to my point. My understanding is that torah is anything that God said. Torah specifically is referring to the 5 Books of Moses. I understand the Jer.33 passage to be saying that God will put his law (torah) in our hearts, not his Law (Torah) in our hearts.

As I did some more study on Dath, I realized that it is the kings law, as compared to the Torah, still the law but given/explained through his minister.

 

[Verifyveritas76]

I’ve been going back through Torah specifically looking at the priesthood. Ive found quite a few things. One thing I found I would have never dreamed would be there.

Leviticus 22:24. Ye shall not offer unto the LORD that which is bruised, or crushed, or broken, or cut; neither shall ye make any offering thereof in your land.

Compare to Isaiah 53:5. But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.

And Psalm 22:16,17. For dogs have compassed me: the assembly of the wicked have enclosed me: they pierced my hands and my feet. I may tell all my bones: they look and stare upon me.

Matthew 26:67 Then did they spit in his face, and buffeted him; and others smote him with the palms of their hands,

Matthew 27:26 Then released he Barabbas unto them: and when he had scourged Jesus, he delivered him to be crucified.

John 19:1-3 Then Pilate therefore took Jesus, and scourged him.
And the soldiers platted a crown of thorns, and put it on his head, and they put on him a purple robe, And said, Hail, King of the Jews! and they smote him with their hands.

1 Peter 2:24. Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.

 

[IshChayil]

And so with that, who determines how one is to interpret God's Law right now, today? Who can tell me how to honor the Sabbath? Festival? The Law? Beyond another man's interpretation?My answer is the Holy Spirit to each individual.

Jews can tell you Cap. We've had some practice. It’s a bit surprising someone would ask such a thing “who oh who in the world can help me understand how to keep the Torah?”
Your "beyond another man's interpretation" however seems to be a setup so that no answer will pacify.
The Law has in it the mechanism/command for "another man" to provide the interpretation. I know this can seem bizarre to protesting Catholics. That's the command I was talking about previously to set up systems of religious courts. So, your negative qualifier actually would prevent the Law from being interpreted in the way that G-d commanded it to be interpreted (via other men who know more/came before us).
I don't mean to lean too heavily on you, but you do see the problem you are creating right?

OK I'm good with that. I believe I am were I am because the Holy Spirit has led me here. Do you see anything wrong with that?
The Sabbath rest spoken of in Hebrews 4 doesn't seem to be all that complicated. And the no fires thing, really? I have an electric stove so no worries. And if so many people interpret it differently how would one know whether they are doing it right?

We don’t need the letter to the Hebrews to teach us about Sabbath. That’s like jumping to a calculus book to learn about Algebra. Sabbath is already mentioned so many times all throughout the bible before the addition of NT why on Earth would we look to NT to learn how to do it?

When people start trying to claim religious rules and regulations for others it all seems like climate change folks who preach about fossil fuel use but yet drive around in their cars and can't bring themselves to riding a bicycle or walking.

That’s an absurd analogy. G-d did not invent a system of using fossil fuel or hippies; he did invent His perfect Law.

When these type things are spoken of it all just seems like bondage to me. …

Well Paul says he’s a “slave for the Messiah”. And we know from Acts he continued to keep the Law & the traditions so… maybe it’s not bad to be in bondage to G-d?

Now, I’m not trying to put you under the Torah. I am, however, curious how you interpret Paul when he says “without the Torah I would not have known what sin is”. Do you think he means sins like: murder, rape, theft, etc. which all societies generally understand to be evil (without Torah)? I.e., go to Japan today you can leave your groceries on your bicycle and nobody will steal it and they don’t have a clue about the Torah. Or do you think Paul is talking about other sins which are not obvious (violating Sabbath, etc)?
I.e. who could ever figure out that a certain day of the week matters if they didn’t have it written in a holy book? Or that certain foods are not allowed?

 

[IshChayil]

I have taken the prohibition on kindling a fire literally and as we heat with wood it would seem like a burden but has not been. It does make the Sabbath candle an incredibly useful thing though.

In Jewish understanding this command is interpreted in 2 ways: 1-peshat (plain meaning) just don't do it (don't make new flames on Sabbath). 2-remez, deeper meaning, don't make someone angry on the Sabbath day.
Next thing I'm just saying not to be argumentative but just it may be interesting. In Jewish understanding of the Law, we are not allowed to derive a benefit from the Sabbath candle... that is, can't use it to light other things, can't use it as a reading light etc... This gets a bit esoteric, but the idea is we are using it as a device to add sanctity to the shabbat, so then we may not use it for mundane (profane) uses. (not making you wrong on this, just thought I'd share for those interested).

I’m so new to this thing that I’m not sure how to answer you. I’m just trying to walk out 1 John 2:3-6 and I don’t label myself as anything but a follower of Yeshua.
But my first reaction is that this responsibility should be handled by the “elders” within the assemblies... although the one I have been attending is not structured enough to really have elders so that isn’t a thing there. And honestly I’m sorta glad it’s not...

Elders seem reasonable; the problem I've seen in many Hebrew roots groups, is that the elders are often new to Torah themselves (i.e. less than a decade at least). I'm often amazed how quick some are to bash "the rabbis" or "talmud" when they themselves have no method of preserving wisdom regarding adherence to the Law.
Most of what I see is ad hoc decision-making. It's not always necessary to reinvent the wheel guys.

 

[Verifyveritas76]

Jews can tell you Cap. We've had some practice. It’s a bit surprising someone would ask such a thing “who oh who in the world can help me understand how to keep the Torah?”
Your "beyond another man's interpretation" however seems to be a setup so that no answer will pacify.
The Law has in it the mechanism/command for "another man" to provide the interpretation. I know this can seem bizarre to protesting Catholics. That's the command I was talking about previously to set up systems of religious courts. So, your negative qualifier actually would prevent the Law from being interpreted in the way that G-d commanded it to be interpreted (via other men who know more/came before us).

This is exactly what I see the Jeremiah 31 new covenant referring to when he says And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

One of the indicators of this covenant is that sins are forgiven and remembered no more.

Jer 33:3. Call unto me and I will answer thee and show thee great and mighty things that thou knowest not.

 

[Cap]

Jews can tell you Cap. We've had some practice. It’s a bit surprising someone would ask such a thing “who oh who in the world can help me understand how to keep the Torah?”
Your "beyond another man's interpretation" however seems to be a setup so that no answer will pacify.
The Law has in it the mechanism/command for "another man" to provide the interpretation. I know this can seem bizarre to protesting Catholics. That's the command I was talking about previously to set up systems of religious courts. So, your negative qualifier actually would prevent the Law from being interpreted in the way that G-d commanded it to be interpreted (via other men who know more/came before us).
I don't mean to lean too heavily on you, but you do see the problem you are creating right?

I'm sorry, but as far as I know the Jews are just as lost as everyone else. And I doubt very seriously any command in the bible is saying that lost men should guide other lost men. If the Jews have figured it out, why are they not currently the priests of God's Kingdom on earth today? What I do see is that once God allowed men to lead other men in the things of God and they screwed it up, but that is being done away with and God will lead those with faith Himself.

We don’t need the letter to the Hebrews to teach us about Sabbath. That’s like jumping to a calculus book to learn about Algebra. Sabbath is already mentioned so many times all throughout the bible before the addition of NT why on Earth would we look to NT to learn how to do it?

Correct the religious aspect of the idea of Sabbath is mentioned many times in the bible and its regulations based on old understandings, however what I am understanding is there is a new way to understand the sabbath.

That’s an absurd analogy. G-d did not invent a system of using fossil fuel or hippies; he did invent His perfect Law.

I like my analogy. Fits for me.

Well Paul says he’s a “slave for the Messiah”. And we know from Acts he continued to keep the Law & the traditions so… maybe it’s not bad to be in bondage to G-d?

Bondage to God yes, bondage to men or the traditions of men, not so much.

Now, I’m not trying to put you under the Torah. I am, however, curious how you interpret Paul when he says “without the Torah I would not have known what sin is”. Do you think he means sins like: murder, rape, theft, etc. which all societies generally understand to be evil (without Torah)? I.e., go to Japan today you can leave your groceries on your bicycle and nobody will steal it and they don’t have a clue about the Torah. Or do you think Paul is talking about other sins which are not obvious (violating Sabbath, etc)?
I.e. who could ever figure out that a certain day of the week matters if they didn’t have it written in a holy book? Or that certain foods are not allowed?

torah as in little t, which is the the Word of God to me. So yes, because of the whole Word of God and God's Mercy and guidance I would have not known what sin is. But since the time He revealed Himself to me, not by reading the first five books of the bible, though I have read them many many times along with the rest of God's Word I have come to understand what sin is for me today and I will learn what sin is for me tomorrow as well. I don't believe "Torah" is a list of old commands, although they are included, but the continued commands that are given to each believer on a daily bases for them to live their lives free before Christ.

I am starting to wonder if this site should be called TF, Torah Families.

It's obvious one can't speak about these things in the Hebrew Roots section, and its obvious you can't speak about them anywhere else. It offends too many people here, everywhere.

EDIT: Does any non torah follower have issue with what I am saying?

 

[IshChayil]

I'm sorry, but as far as I know the Jews are just as lost as everyone else. And I doubt very seriously any command in the bible is saying that lost men should guide other lost men. If the Jews have figured it out, why are they not currently the priests of God's Kingdom on earth today? What I do see is that once God allowed men to lead other men in the things of God and they screwed it up, but that is being done away with and God will lead those with faith Himself.




Correct the religious aspect of the idea of Sabbath is mentioned many times in the bible and its regulations based on old understandings, however what I am understanding is there is a new way to understand the sabbath.



I like my analogy. Fits for me.



Bondage to God yes, bondage to men or the traditions of men, not so much.



torah as in little t, which is the the Word of God to me. So yes, because of the whole Word of God and God's Mercy and guidance I would have not known what sin is. But since the time He revealed Himself to me, not by reading the first five books of the bible, though I have read them many many times along with the rest of God's Word I have come to understand what sin is for me today and I will learn what sin is for me tomorrow as well. I don't believe "Torah" is a list of old commands, although they are included, but the continued commands that are given to each believer on a daily bases for them to live their lives free before Christ.

I am starting to wonder if this site should be called TF, Torah Families.

It's obvious one can't speak about these things in the Hebrew Roots section, and its obvious you can't speak about them anywhere else. It offends too many people here, everywhere.

EDIT: Does any non torah follower have issue with what I am saying?

Well Cap you don't seem to be honestly engaged in this with all your side-stepping and tap dancing so I think I'm done responding to you.
I'll keep my pearls to myself.

In the future if you decide you'd like to have an honest conversation about this perhaps I'll re-engage.

 

[IshChayil]

This is exactly what I see the Jeremiah 31 new covenant referring to when he says And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

One of the indicators of this covenant is that sins are forgiven and remembered no more.

Jer 33:3. Call unto me and I will answer thee and show thee great and mighty things that thou knowest not.

Yes, but as others have mentioned, we don't really seem to be living in the days where no man has to teach the Law of G-d to his brother because everyone will have the Law written on their heart and live in accordance to it.

Personally, my experience in business has usually been that I prefer to NOT do business with self-declaring Christians if I can help it because they are usually hyper-demanding / rude and do not act in accordance with the Law of G-d. This is not a shot at anyone here. My point is, to say that most Christians have G-d's Law written on their heart is laughable.

 

[Pacman]

It's obvious one can't speak about these things in the Hebrew Roots section, and its obvious you can't speak about them anywhere else. It offends too many people here, everywhere.

No offense taken here cap but just as you or anyone else will speak up when they feel I am incorrect about something you should expect others to point it out to you when they feel you are incorrect... passive aggressive personal attacks are what people get offended by not disagreements about interpretation of scripture...

 

[IshChayil]

Indeed, the Holy Spirit does so, but the foundation is what we are taught in the Word. The Holy Spirit will never lead you away from the commandments.

Example: Sabbath. The Word is pretty simple: Seventh day, rest, no work, gather for convocation/fellowship/worship. Also, no fires, but many interpret that to relate to work, not food or warmth. That's it.

Anything else is something to take to the Father and ask for guidance.

Unless our parents commanded us to observe Sabbath in s certain way right? [i.e. the 5th commandment] We wouldn't need any special guidance to determine if we should obey them or not right?

 

[Cap]

Personally, my experience in business has usually been that I prefer to NOT do business with self-declaring Christians if I can help it because they are usually hyper-demanding / rude and do not act in accordance with the Law of G-d. This is not a shot at anyone here. My point is, to say that most Christians have G-d's Law written on their heart is laughable.

It is a shot and I can't understand why others can't see the division in it. What makes you think that the hyper demanding Christians don't have negative feelings about you.

Now Christians are laughable to a Jew and that will probably be OK here.

 

[Cap]

No offense taken here cap but just as you or anyone else will speak up when they feel I am incorrect about something you should expect others to point it out to you when they feel you are incorrect... passive aggressive personal attacks are what people get offended by not disagreements about interpretation of scripture...

OK same goes on the Hebrew section. Probably not. And here we go again with the PA label. I have not attacked anyone just stated my understanding of this idea of Torah. Which has only received resistance from those who value the following of this Torah.

And based on the discussion there is likey to never be an understanding and it is becoming obvious this is the prevailing thought that is becoming the reality here because no one else seems to want to stand up for the opposite view. So therefore I have to assume I am the only one here that has this view and I am out of place here, even in the hyper demanding Christian section.

 

[The Revolting Man]

In Jewish understanding this command is interpreted in 2 ways: 1-peshat (plain meaning) just don't do it (don't make new flames on Sabbath). 2-remez, deeper meaning, don't make someone angry on the Sabbath day.
Next thing I'm just saying not to be argumentative but just it may be interesting. In Jewish understanding of the Law, we are not allowed to derive a benefit from the Sabbath candle... that is, can't use it to light other things, can't use it as a reading light etc... This gets a bit esoteric, but the idea is we are using it as a device to add sanctity to the shabbat, so then we may not use it for mundane (profane) uses. (not making you wrong on this, just thought I'd share for those interested).


Elders seem reasonable; the problem I've seen in many Hebrew roots groups, is that the elders are often new to Torah themselves (i.e. less than a decade at least). I'm often amazed how quick some are to bash "the rabbis" or "talmud" when they themselves have no method of preserving wisdom regarding adherence to the Law.
Most of what I see is ad hoc decision-making. It's not always necessary to reinvent the wheel guys.

I see a great benefit to constantly reexaminijg everything. We can constantly refine and sift our beliefs to make sure that we are doing our best to follow God's Laws and not elevating anyone else's words higher than they should be. It is a bit chaotic and it can be inefficient. It is a creative destruction, q constant renewing and testing. I will check with other more knowledgeable and learned sources when I feel like I'm at an impasse (as I have with you at times). No one's words are perfect but God's so no one can ever be allowed to have control over His Words.