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Is the term Old Covenant ever mentioned in Scripture?
- Thread starter Verifyveritas76
- Start date
Are you sure about that?
Deuteronomy 30:11-14 NASB
"For this commandment which I command you today is not too difficult for you, nor is it out of reach. [12] It is not in heaven, that you should say, 'Who will go up to heaven for us to get it for us and make us hear it, that we may observe it?' [13] Nor is it beyond the sea, that you should say, 'Who will cross the sea for us to get it for us and make us hear it, that we may observe it?' [14] But the word is very near you, in your mouth and in your heart, that you may observe it.
Luke 1:5-6 NASB
In the days of Herod, king of Judea, there was a priest named Zacharias, of the division of Abijah; and he had a wife from the daughters of Aaron, and her name was Elizabeth. [6] They were both righteous in the sight of God, walking blamelessly in all the commandments and requirements of the Lord.
I'm explaining the spirit of the law.
I don't know where your statement connects with the last of sentence of my statement. You won't get an arguement from me against walking in faith being hard. Here's the thing to me Submitting is part of walking in Faith. We have different views of what submission to God looks like. That's fine no problem, you said your good with what you do, that's cool, I'm not good with what I do because I know I could be submitting in more ways than what my flesh is allowing right now.
Every ones walk has there unique struggles and how hard it is is relative to the individual so this isn't about who's walk is harder or who is more righteous.....This faith walking is harder statement........You believe that walking in faith keeping the commandments you keep is harder than walking in faith following a written set of rules that you say no one has been able to follow yet? That's doesn't make sense to me. The only way for your faith walking is harder statement to make sense is if your inferring that I'm not walking in Faith. If that's the case simply say so. I submit to His instructions because I have Faith He is who He says He is. I have faith He is the only way to salvation. I submit to as much of His instructions as I can because I don't walk in obligation fulfilling only what is required of me but because there is no limit on what I would do for Him.
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I'm sure you know intent (kavenah) is part of the performance of any mitzvah and many sins.
Bowing to a statue is not equal to avodah zarah if there is not intent behind it.
A Noahide is permitted to bow to a statue without intent; especially if there is pekuach nefesh involved.
That's exactly what the prophet allows Naamon to do. It's clearly not his intent to worship the thing as he has made a faith decree of allegiance now to the G-d of Israel. Naamon is a ger toshav (righteous Gentile) not a convert to Judaism, hence the lesser restriction.
Context is king and clearly the prophet isn't just saying "goodbye" when he says "go in peace". It's an answer to a sincere question of a new believer seeking to be in compliance with the will of the G-d of Israel.
For a Jew, he's not even allowed to tie his shoelaces facing a statue since it may appear he is doing avodah zara but to a Noachide such acts are permitted. Permitting Naamon to keep his job and not get possibly executed for bowing with the king is not permitting idolatry.
*** Clarification **** As I wrote before I'm not pushing Noahidism on anyone here, especially not on Hebrew roots brothers. In my mind if you've chosen Torah and fully grafted in to Israel then you are already an adopted son of Israel. I only brought up Noahidism to make another point.
Excellent point Kev.
For everyone following this I just want to segway for a second to point out that this is the word the bible uses to describe Jacob (since there is often great misunderstanding about the biblical position on Jacob's character in Christendom)
Same adjective is attributed to him as Kevin defined above. Not "cheater" not "liar" but the adjective Kev has above defined.
I already anticipated this response and that's why I pre-empted such a response by saying , "as long as they don't tell you to sin",
I was trying to prevent such distractions from the clear, simple point at hand. We aren't going to do Ba'al worship b/c we had some ancestors in Canaan who did that.
My specific point, I thought I made very concise, is regarding HOW to do Torah commands when a father tells us to do them a certain style/way. This obviously precludes commands to sin.
Have you guys ever considered that maybe each progressive generation needs more burden as this world becomes more and more perverse? I don't think 2500 years ago we had other men's wives walking around half-naked at the mall or beach. I don't think we had Lashon Hara shoved in our faces 50 times a day in social media or network news.
Stands to reason there may have been less of a need to safeguard our eyes back then.
I'm relatively sure you wouldn't suggest we need less restrictions on our behavior than our ancestors did 2500 years ago.
(sidebar: to your question in green: Paul kept the commands and the traditions well after being saved so ... maybe I'd recommend his level of observance is the level that's not too burdensome?)
Instead of making the slippery slope claim about "well it just gets to be too much" I'd say, "if we have the power (at least we think we do), to throw off the yoke of our Torah-keeping ancestors as taught to us by our father", then why not just trust our righteous fathers with that task? I.e., each generation has the opportunity to reject "too burdensome" commands from previous generations.
It's already been prefiltered then taught by our immediate father. What would give us the right to then sidestep our direct father saying, "you know what pops? I know you already looked at all this stuff and decided I need to do it but instead of honoring you, I'm just gonna re-edit what you passed down to me, kind of like you never taught me a thing ok? I'll be the one to review what your dad taught you and decide if that's too burdensome for me."
Now you got into talk about pagan roots and stuff; I'm not talking about that side of the family.
I'm talking about the side that adopted you. Any talk about Ishtar/Easter, Christmas, etc is a distraction from the point I'm making. As I said, "parental commands on HOW to follow Torah".
This is not "adding to" the Torah any more than Yeshua Hamashiach "added to" the Torah by saying "it's adultery to look at (another man's woman) with lust in your heart" or how he "added to" by saying "if you are just angry with your brother in your heart it's murder".
(this is also why I brought up the Rechovites in my previous post to you; their ancestors "added" a prohibition against drinking alcohol and scripture paints a very positive view of them). If people accept those and other teachings by the Messiah as not violating the command to "not add to or take away" then it's a bit rich to claim that a grandparent saying, "this is the way you should tie your tzitzit" is somehow "adding to the torah".
Now I don't mean to be picking on you Pete. You're just the guy that echoed some of what I'd like to challenge; this pseudo-Jewish roots movement that is now chopping off the Jewish part.
Eradicating our fathers does certainly make Torah observance seem much simpler. At least it's a lot less work for leaders as there's less to research when we do "what's right in our own eyes".
Now I have a sneaking suspicion if more folks attempting to keep Torah would just look at what our fathers teach, instead of rejecting it out of hand, they'd actually like a lot of what they find. At least then any rejection of certain methods of keeping a command would be the result of "loving G-d with all of one's mind [lit: heart]) and not rejection out of ignorance or laziness. Instead many movements today shut the door to obedience to fathers as even a reasonable venue of exploration for Torah keepers.
yakhoach tikhoach et achikha v''lo taamod al damo, ani Hashem
shalom
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The problem with the fire on sabbath guys is many (not you rockfox) try to explain it away as "that was hard back then but now it's easy so it's therefore ok", in the same way they justify keeping kosher as "healthy".
This demonstrates a lack of understanding of the chokim. Many commandments are given deliberately without a reason . The idea is it takes more faith to obey a commandment without a reason than one given with a reason (i.e. honor your parents so you'll live long....). If we are discussing the burden that was/is collecting timber and lighting it, well that already falls under the category of malekhah (all kinds of work including creative white collar work/projects) and it would be a bit strange for the Torah to just then enumerate this one kind of labor (fire gathering/starting) as laborious.
I know, this is the usual answer given when large masses of a particular group behave badly. I always hear "well those weren't real Christians" who did xyz.
It's very nice for us to be able to just acknowledge the great ones as the real ones and filter out the Übermajority that's the rest of us.
I'd quibble with you about what it means to have something written on one's mind.
You certainly can't claim the Law is written on someone's mind when they can't even answer basic questions about it (i.e. most believers) and constantly engage in some of the worse prohibitions (i.e. wicked speech about others).
Thank you, thank you for that clarification. I did not think you were pushing Noahide, but the clarification is welcome.. it us a topic for another thread, but a strong push for Noahide us coming and it won't be friendly. Particularly toward nonJews who keep Torah.... my run ins with antimissionaries have demonstrated this.
What you're pointing out is the No True Scotsman fallacy. And while that can be a valid objection, in the case of Christianity this is not necessarily so. Just because someone claims to be a Christian, doesn't mean they are. Anyone can make the claim; the claim alone is meaningless. The Christian scriptures provide a certain message which includes instructions about what it means to be a Christian (or not) and how to become one.
And in the case of so-called Christianity in America today they manifestly preach and follow a false gospel which is not found in the scriptures while not preaching the one that is found. And I don't mean some, I mean most of them. Not just the message, even the forms are foreign, having mostly been absorbed from other religions or from corporate business. Christ himself were He to show up at a church today wouldn't be welcome in large swaths of so-called Christianity.
So I'm not at all surprised that most of them don't act as if the law is written on their hearts. Especially not after having been persecuted by them for trying to follow that law.
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Have we lost sight of the only thing that really matters? Being saved.
Acts 16:31 They replied, "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved--you and your household."
Not how to do a fire right. And I am pretty sure they couldn't tell you a lot about any other Law either, but that didn't seem to matter to Paul and Silas.
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Shouldn't this be in the Hebrew section?
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Then I am selfish and anyone trying to observe 'Torah" is not?
Quit throwing rocks at each, guys. Scripture tells us to be persuaded in our own minds. The more personal posts you send the less persuaded each one of you sounds.
I was excited when this discussion opened up. I've seen a lot of the Hebrew roots themed movement and was curious on some of the finer (obscure) points. But as was shared in another post, we are the head or high priest of our own home. If we Love the Truth the Holy Spirit Will lead us into Truth.
So I rest assured if I am wrong in some aspects, or running down some winding rabbit trail, the Holy Spirit will lead me back at the appropriate time.
In the meantime. Let's have a meaningful discussion.... Please...
I was excited when this discussion opened up. I've seen a lot of the Hebrew roots themed movement and was curious on some of the finer (obscure) points. But as was shared in another post, we are the head or high priest of our own home. If we Love the Truth the Holy Spirit Will lead us into Truth.
So I rest assured if I am wrong in some aspects, or running down some winding rabbit trail, the Holy Spirit will lead me back at the appropriate time.
In the meantime. Let's have a meaningful discussion.... Please...
I’ve been out of pocket for the last few days with just a small bit of time to read but not post. Not ignoring the thread, just not able to focus on it ATM. Been doing some more research on the Corporate Christianity thread but have also run across some stuff for this thread as well.
I just finished reading this thread and found much to agree with, and of course see a few things differently.
This I can agree with on a personal level, while at the same time must point out that the curses for disobedience in Deut. 28 are to be a sign and wonder on the Israelite people FOREVER!
On a national level those curses are alive and well. Look at every western nation and you see the curses in effect as the governments have left righteousness and as holy-wood and the media have had a hay day practicing the doctrine of Baalam on our people.
After reading "Bible Law v United States Constitution" years ago I see the present system as a complete usurpation of YHWH's rightful position as Judge, King and Lawgiver.
I look forward to the time when His laws are enforced and the man made garbage called laws are given their just deserts.
These volumes of so called laws are I believe the weapons of Babylon that the remnant of believers will burn for 7 months after the great Ho is no more.
Torah is love and mercy to the innocent. Man's (per)version of law is merciful to the criminal and grows/spreads crime and corruption.
I remember discussion about Jerimiah 31:31-33 with most believing we aren't there yet. I offer for consideration the following passages.
Eze. 36
17 Son of man, when the house of Israel dwelt in their own land, they defiled it by their own way and by their doings: ...
19 And I scattered them among the heathen, and they were dispersed through the countries: according to their way and according to their doings I judged them.
20 And when they entered unto the heathen, whither they went, they profaned my holy name, when they said to them, These are the people of the Lord, and are gone forth out of his land......
24 For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land.
25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.
26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.
Here is Hosea 1
9 Then said God, Call his name Loammi: for ye are not my people, and I will not be your God.
10 Yet the number of the children of Israel shall be as the sand of the sea, which cannot be measured nor numbered; and it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people, there it shall be said unto them, Ye are the sons of the living God.
11 Then shall the children of Judah and the children of Israel be gathered together, and appoint themselves one head, and they shall come up out of the land: for great shall be the day of Jezreel.
And here is Romans 2
24Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
25As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved.
26And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God.
Ezekiel's prophesies of the dry bones, and two sticks becoming one was fulfilled when the "Lost sheep of the House of Israel" came back into covenant under Yeshua/Jesus. They called them Gentiles translated from Goy or Ethnos. Neither term means non-Israelite.
These prophesies were fulfilled and many others 2000 years ago. History repeats and the people go through the same stupid cycles over and over.
There will be another "clean up in the camp" called the harvest of the world at some point, (hopefully soon) and the remnant that remains will get another chance at peace and righteousness.
I am usually more articulate, but I have an earache after a nasty week of a cold.
Questions are always welcome....and of course this is just my/our perspective on a little of this to consider.
This I can agree with on a personal level, while at the same time must point out that the curses for disobedience in Deut. 28 are to be a sign and wonder on the Israelite people FOREVER!
On a national level those curses are alive and well. Look at every western nation and you see the curses in effect as the governments have left righteousness and as holy-wood and the media have had a hay day practicing the doctrine of Baalam on our people.
After reading "Bible Law v United States Constitution" years ago I see the present system as a complete usurpation of YHWH's rightful position as Judge, King and Lawgiver.
I look forward to the time when His laws are enforced and the man made garbage called laws are given their just deserts.
These volumes of so called laws are I believe the weapons of Babylon that the remnant of believers will burn for 7 months after the great Ho is no more.
Torah is love and mercy to the innocent. Man's (per)version of law is merciful to the criminal and grows/spreads crime and corruption.
I remember discussion about Jerimiah 31:31-33 with most believing we aren't there yet. I offer for consideration the following passages.
Eze. 36
17 Son of man, when the house of Israel dwelt in their own land, they defiled it by their own way and by their doings: ...
19 And I scattered them among the heathen, and they were dispersed through the countries: according to their way and according to their doings I judged them.
20 And when they entered unto the heathen, whither they went, they profaned my holy name, when they said to them, These are the people of the Lord, and are gone forth out of his land......
24 For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land.
25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.
26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.
Here is Hosea 1
9 Then said God, Call his name Loammi: for ye are not my people, and I will not be your God.
10 Yet the number of the children of Israel shall be as the sand of the sea, which cannot be measured nor numbered; and it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people, there it shall be said unto them, Ye are the sons of the living God.
11 Then shall the children of Judah and the children of Israel be gathered together, and appoint themselves one head, and they shall come up out of the land: for great shall be the day of Jezreel.
And here is Romans 2
- 14For when the Gentiles, (*more accurately translated nations and obviously including descendants of the ten tribes*) which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: 15Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts
24Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
25As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved.
26And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God.
Ezekiel's prophesies of the dry bones, and two sticks becoming one was fulfilled when the "Lost sheep of the House of Israel" came back into covenant under Yeshua/Jesus. They called them Gentiles translated from Goy or Ethnos. Neither term means non-Israelite.
These prophesies were fulfilled and many others 2000 years ago. History repeats and the people go through the same stupid cycles over and over.
There will be another "clean up in the camp" called the harvest of the world at some point, (hopefully soon) and the remnant that remains will get another chance at peace and righteousness.
I am usually more articulate, but I have an earache after a nasty week of a cold.
Questions are always welcome....and of course this is just my/our perspective on a little of this to consider.