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Is God the source of evil?

And the devil said unto him, All this power will I give thee, and the glory of them: for that is delivered unto me; and to whomsoever I will I give it.

Satan offers Jesus Dominion back and like Yoder said, Jesus doesn't say that he doesn't have dominion but rather rebukes him. Satan can't offer an all knowing God something he doesn't posses. And who delivered this power to Satan? We did.
Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them;
And saith unto him, All these things will I give thee, if thou wilt fall down and worship me.

My point is that all Satan could offer was the kingdoms of the world and the glory of the kingdoms. He couldn’t offer the world because he didn’t own it. There’s a huge difference. Especially in light of Psalms 24:1 A Psalmof David.The earth is the LORD’S, and the fulness thereof; the world, and they that dwell therein. Also Leviticus 25:23 The land shall not be sold for ever: for the land is mine; for ye are strangers and sojourners with me.
 
, a travesty that gives us the impression that the adversary is somehow at least almost as powerful as our God
Satan definitely isn't as powerful as God. I think its in Isaiah that he gives a prophecy where we will see Satan in the end times and be very unimpressed. People will pretty much say "Really!? This is the guy that caused us all those problems?"

the adversary is somehow at least almost as powerful as our God and has a place called Hell where The One Adversary will have eternal dominion over billions upon billions of permanently-lost souls.

This is a bad misconception by the Church. No part of Satan wants anything to do with hell. He isn't there now and he does not rule it or want anything to do with it. However, he will be spending a little bit of time there in the very near future.

I know this represents a minority belief on my part within Christianity, but I just have to ask this: are we really that unsure of the omnipotence of our LORD that we would be insecure enough to believe that, in The End, He will have lost 95% of humanity to an entity that HE created?
God would that all would come to repentance. 1 Timothy 2:4. God wants to save all but we have freewill. God is doing everything he can to save everyone short of taking away there freewill. Some people say "Well if I saw miracles like Paul or saw someone come back to life I would believe" but that is not true. In the story of Lazurus the rich man in hell asked if Lazurus a dead man could be sent to his brothers to warn them and Abraham told him

And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

And honestly who hasn't seen God do something miraculous ?

Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them;
And saith unto him, All these things will I give thee, if thou wilt fall down and worship me.

My point is that all Satan could offer was the kingdoms of the world and the glory of the kingdoms. He couldn’t offer the world because he didn’t own it. There’s a huge difference. Especially in light of Psalms 24:1 A Psalmof David.The earth is the LORD’S, and the fulness thereof; the world, and they that dwell therein. Also Leviticus 25:23 The land shall not be sold for ever: for the land is mine; for ye are strangers and sojourners with me.

I'm sorry. I read your comment in a hurry last time and misread what you were saying.
My belief is that ownership belongs to God but there is a battle going on and right now they are under Satans influence. Satan is "Occupying" to use a military term. We as Christians are kind of like the resistance here on earth waiting for the Army that is easily going to defeat Satan to get here. That being said we are a well equipped militia who is fighting from a victory and who can also easily defeat Satan If we would ever man up and act like it

Matthew 16:15-20 King James Version (KJV)
15 He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am?
16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.
17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.
18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
19 And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.
20 Then charged he his disciples that they should tell no man that he was Jesus the Christ.

I never see the highlighted portion of the verse used right.
Gates do not move but are rather stationary and meant to keep invaders out. Jesus isn't telling Peter that the faith you have will keep you safe from Satan and hell from taking you over. What he is saying is that Hell will not be able to prevail against you when you attack. I do not care for defeated Christianity that thinks we are just supposed to hang on until the Lord comes back. God told Peter that the gates of hell itself wouldn't withstand him when he decided to march against them.

I'm not a preacher but his gets me excited.
 
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Most choose to believe that evil is embodied in a being called satan.

hmmmm. Mayyybe. I was all set to agree with that, but I don't think that evil is 'embodied' in Satan. Unless by that you mean the same way that you mean that evil is embodied by humans.
That's how I look at it. I believe Satan is corrupted and brings forth evil and wickedness out of his own, in a similar fashion that all humans do.

I want to know more about your cosmology. Supposing Satan is (solely) a metaphor for man's deceitful heart:

What are angels?

What is Michael?

What is heaven?

What is earth?

I ask because he wars with his angels against Michael and his angels, and is cast from heaven to earth.

This whole chapter was already fairly metaphorical from the beginning, But without those 4 questions being answered, I have no way of knowing what's even happening in Rev 12.

a travesty that gives us the impression that the adversary is somehow at least almost as powerful as our God and has a place called Hell where The One Adversary will have eternal dominion over billions upon billions of permanently-lost souls.

Some people have that impression, but there's a lot of heresy out there, which this clearly is. Drawing a link between a doctrine and the beliefs held by people who don't understand it is dirty pool. I believe God is bearing patiently with the vessel of His wrath, and the devil ruling hell is a cultural thing. The bible and christians who read it know that Hell (by which we mean the lake of fire, so there's no confusion) is a place that Satan gets thrown into, quite against his will. There he will be tormented night and day forever and ever. Being tormented night and day is very different than ruling or having dominion.

but I just have to ask this: are we really that unsure of the omnipotence of our LORD that we would be insecure enough to believe that, in The End, He will have lost 95% of humanity to an entity that HE created?

I'm not happy that you would call this a symptom of insecurity in God. It was Jesus who said narrow is the gate and path that lead to life and few find it. It was Jesus who said many were called but few were chosen. God is immutably Holy, He will do Justice, He does love Mercy. He will not admit the unclean without repentance. If one does not gather with Him, one is against Him, and His hands formed the burning trash can that they will be thrown into.
 
I'm enjoying watching this thread... interesting other information I read this morning regarding Jerusalem and the Temple mount (which is not actually the real location of the Temple, rather the fort of Antonia...) then catching up in this thread led me to a new thought touched on here...

Isaiah 14 is prophecy with multiple phases of fulfillment. The fulness is yet to come.... the antimessiah, a physical man who is indwelt by the adversary will be king over Babylon, that city that sits in Israel and will rule over the world before suffering the ultimate defeat and humiliation. No time to spell it all out and connect all the Scriptures that cone to mind, but watch Jerusalem for a fulfillment in the near future... ;)

Isaiah 14 perfectly connects with the prophecies of that time.
 
I'm enjoying watching this thread... interesting other information I read this morning regarding Jerusalem and the Temple mount (which is not actually the real location of the Temple, rather the fort of Antonia...) then catching up in this thread led me to a new thought touched on here...

Isaiah 14 is prophecy with multiple phases of fulfillment. The fulness is yet to come.... the antimessiah, a physical man who is indwelt by the adversary will be king over Babylon, that city that sits in Israel and will rule over the world before suffering the ultimate defeat and humiliation. No time to spell it all out and connect all the Scriptures that cone to mind, but watch Jerusalem for a fulfillment in the near future... ;)

Isaiah 14 perfectly connects with the prophecies of that time.
I agree. We are not out of money, churches, or people. We are out of time. Even the secular non believing world can feel we are on the edge of something.
 
People can believe whatever they want. Most choose to believe that evil is embodied in a being called satan. I choose to believe that evil is rebellion against God and is committed by man independent of any supernatural force or being. I believe YHWH said it perfectly through Yeshua (Yeshua said He ONLY spoke His Father's words) when He taught us that evil proceeds from the heart of man. James confirmed this when he wrote that every man is enticed by his own lusts.

Why not both?

So you interpret the temptation of Christ by the Devil as strictly metaphorical, not a literal Satan?

Scientist Richard Owen invented the term “dinosaurs” in 1841 for describing the large creatures that once lived on earth. But for most of human history these creatures were known as dragons and they were part of the original creation. The many dragon stories and legends that can be found around the world are probably related to actual encounters with dinosaurs. Since we are told in Genesis that there were two of every kind of animal that went on the Ark before the Flood, dinosaurs must have come off the Ark and only become extinct sometime after that.

I think a common explanation is that the fossil record of dinosaurs comes from flood deposition. So created in Gen 1 but killed off in the Flood.

The tempting serpent of Genesis was just a serpent.

That doesn't square with Rev 12. But the part of Satan as jailer of hell, I think that's from Greek mythology, not Christian scriptures.

Even the secular non believing world can feel we are on the edge of something.

Ya, the crack up of our empire. But just because it is the end of 'our world', as in the current order of things, doesn't mean it's the literal end of everything. That's a common mistake through the centuries.
 
Just some thoughts:

There is a difference between authority and power.

Satan may have had some authority over the earth in His reign before Adam, at his fall he lost his authority but not his power.

At Adam's creation, Adam had dominion. and was told to keep his garden. Adam had the authority and the power to do so. At Adams fall he lost his power but not his authority.
Man was not punished with Death just for eating an apple off of a tree. It was an act of High treason!
Whatever Eve thought, Adam was not deceived. He knew full well he was Joining forces with Satan against the Father. Hence the punishment was just.

Satan now uses his power to usurp and or persuade man to work with him, so that together, Satan's power and Man's authority, may prevail against the plan of God and Satan can remain at-large and in control.

Jesus overcame, as a man, and regained the right to the authority and the power! Now we have been given access to the power to overcome him and use our authority for the purposes of God if we will.
Ultimately Christ will return and exercise ultimate authority and power i.e. Dominion over the earth and Satan's and man's rebellion will be put down forever.

God never lost ownership. God could have destroyed it all if He so chose. God chose to redeem and restore, through Jesus, whosoever will. God is committed to the destruction of everything He cannot save. Thank God for Jesus!
 
I think they lived before Adam just after Genesis 1:1 but before Genesis 1:2. I think when Satan fell to earth the old world was destroyed with dinosaurs in it and Genesis 1:2 God is remaking it.

The stories of dragons must have predated Babylon though because most every ancient culture has stories of dragons and they had no contact with each other. The Chinese, Mayans and Europeans all had stories of dragons. Fascinating to me historians try to make it sound like multiple groups of ancient society with different languages and no contact with each other magically dreamed up and imagined the same make believe creature.
If dinosaurs lived in the “pre-adamite world” why do we find their skeletons and footprints?
 
If dinosaurs lived in the “pre-adamite world” why do we find their skeletons and footprints?
When Satan fell like a star he hit the earth and wiped out the dinosaurs. Textbooks still teach dinosaurs were wiped out when a meteor hit the earth and kicked up so much dust and ash that it put the earth into a winter and destroyed most of the vegetation. Genesis 1:2 God is reforming the earth. Plus if Science wants to say the earth is millions upon millions of years old That is fine with me. I don't know how long it was from Genesis 1:1 to 1:2. If you believe Dinosaurs lived preflood why didn't they get on Ark. God said 2 of every animal. Not just the small ones.
 
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I think a common explanation is that the fossil record of dinosaurs comes from flood deposition. So created in Gen 1 but killed off in the Flood.
But God put two of each kind on the ark.

If you believe Dinosaurs lived preflood why didn't they get on Ark. God said 2 of every animal. Not just the small ones.
Since God put two of each kind of animal on the ark, they must have been there. He says He did so He must have.
 
But God put two of each kind on the ark.


Since God put two of each kind of animal on the ark, they must have been there. He says He did so He must have.
Exactly. Thats why I think they were already destroyed before Adam was put in the Garden.
 
God says two of every kind went on the ark. Why do you create and believe a story that contradicts what God says He did?
I'm not. I believe 2 of every creature went on the ark. Wait, are you talking to me or someone else?
 
You may look at creation science evangelism. There is some fascinating info there.
I looked them up and I have heard Kent Hovind preach before. I can't remember everything he taught though. I see he is against evolution which is good. I'll have to watch one of his vids. I skimmed over one to see his thoughts on creation and the age of the world but he never really got into it.
 
I'm not. I believe 2 of every creature went on the ark. Wait, are you talking to me or someone else?
God doesn't say He destroyed the dinosaurs before Adam but He dose say two of every kind went onto the Ark. Those that went onto the Ark, came off the Ark after the Flood and those were the creatures that repopulated the earth. Noah and his sons, with their wives, were the ones through whom the earth was repopulated with people. Every other land dwelling air breathing creature died in the flood. That is where most of the fossils come from.
 
Supposing Satan is (solely) a metaphor for man's deceitful heart:

What are angels?

What is Michael?

What is heaven?

What is earth?

Angels.
The short answer is that angels are messengers of YHWH. Some may appear in a vision that only one man can see. We are told that some people have entertained angels unawares, indicating that they may just look like men. In Revelation I believe the angels are followers of Yeshua and with Him are fighting the dragon (See description of Mystery Babylon the Great and the beast she rides). The dragon's angels are men who choose to support evil. It is interesting to me that the angel that showed John the vision of Revelation stopped John from worshiping him and said he was "Thy (John's) fellow-servant, and of thy (John's) brethren that have the testimony of Jesus." (Rev. 19:10) I believe angels are messengers of God whether they be mortal man or super natural messengers.

Michael in Revelation is Yeshua. Back in Daniel what is spoken is a reference to Michael, made by a messenger, in a vision that only Daniel saw which vision is referring to the time of Revelation.

Heaven. In the beginning God called the firmament above heaven, and the dry land below earth. After this because of their respective locations relevant to each other they are used symbolically throughout the prophetic books. Heaven being things high, lofty, the sky. Heaven is symbolic for where God dwells. There is much in scripture that attempts to communicate where, what, and even how the kingdom of heaven is manifested. One of the more relevant points I would like to bring out is that it was in existence on the earth. Yeshua told some that the kingdom would be taken from them and given to a nation bringing forth the fruit thereof. He also said that the kingdom of God is within us, and that it cometh not with observation. You cannot buy a plane ticket to the kingdom.
When the kings of old got puffed up and full of pride in their hearts, language like "I will exalt my throne above the stars of God, I will ascend, I will be like the most high" describes their mental and heart condition. Then God would bring them down to "the earth" or to a lower place "the pit." We still use speech that is descriptive. Someone "down to earth" is one who doesn't think more of themselves then they should.

The earth. Earth is of course the creation of our God. Scripture calls it His footstool, but really that is just figurative speech that indicates that YHWH is much bigger then we can comprehend.
The war at the end of the ages, that may not be far off, has Michael and His angels fighting against the dragon and his angels. The dragon is "cast to the earth" or thrown down from the lofty place he occupied. Look at the world and the place that evil currently has in it. The ruler of this system called Mystery Babylon the Great is that dragon. This dragon controls the nations/kings of the world and draws one third of the host of heaven with his tail. These are people professing faith in Christ that are deceived.
I don't want to hijack this thread, but I read an interesting statistic recently that said that one third of evangelical Christians globally support the Zionist movement in Israel that even many Jews are opposed to. In America over half of the Evangelical Christians support Zionism. Those behind Zionism control the media, the monetary systems of the nations, and through their control of the money, the governments/ kings of the nations. I better stop now, as I have probably said more then enough already. I hope this gives you a better idea of how I understand scripture and how it relates to our times and to us as His people.
 
God doesn't say He destroyed the dinosaurs before Adam but He dose say two of every kind went onto the Ark. Those that went onto the Ark, came off the Ark after the Flood and those were the creatures that repopulated the earth. Noah and his sons, with their wives, were the ones through whom the earth was repopulated with people. Every other land dwelling air breathing creature died in the flood. That is where most of the fossils come from.


Genesis 1:1 refers to God's initial perfect creation. Everything that God made was beautiful, there was no sin anywhere. Verse two, on the other hand, assumes that a great catastrophe occurred that caused the earth to become in a chaotic state through the judgment of God. According to the Gap or Ruined Recreation Theory, the formless and void state, as recorded in Genesis 1:2, is in direct contrast to the perfect initial creation. Something happened between the first two verses of Genesis to cause the earth to become desolate and uninhabitable after having been made perfect.

After this unknown amount of time between the first two verses, God began a re-creation or restitution which involved successive days. The remainder of the first chapter of Genesis deals with the reconstruction of the earth, not the original creation.

The judgment is usually spoken of as a flood because of the statement of Genesis 1:2 - the earth was covered by water. This judgment is also known as the Luciferic flood named after the angel who became the devil.

The cause for the judgment is rebellion of Satan. All of the inhabitants of the earth were judged by God, leaving behind fossil remains. The present plants and animals living today have no genetic relationship with the fossil left behind by the judgment of God.


The Hebrew conjunction waw that begins Genesis 1:2. It is almost always translated as "but". There is a contrast between what was stated in Genesis 1:1 and the statement of Genesis 1:2. Moses is emphasizing that the earth was created perfect but something happened that caused to become formless and void.

The word translated was in Genesis 1:2 is the Hebrew verb hayah. It is possible to translate it as became or had become. Thus, the earth was created perfectly and then became without form and void. The world, though created perfect, became desolate and uninhabitable. What had previously been a perfect world was now ruined. In other places in the creation account the verb hayah is translated became or had become.


Genesis 1:2 describes the earth at the time of the creation as being without form and void or desolate and uninhabitable (Hebrew tohu wa bohu). Are we to assume that a perfect God created the world in a chaotic condition? The phrase without form and void seems to require some type of judgment.

Genesis 1:2 speaks of the world in a state of darkness. Darkness is almost always used in Scripture as a sign of sin and judgment (Jude 13, John 3:19). Furthermore, God did not say the darkness was good as He had said about the light (Genesis 1:3). If God originally created the world in light, then something caused the earth to become dark.

The original creation was in Genesis 1:1. What happened on the six days of Genesis was not creating but rather making over. There is a distinction between the verbs create bara and made asah. The verb bara is used with regard to God creating while asah means refashioning and carries the idea of making something into something else.
 
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Michael in Revelation is Yeshua.
No hes not. Michael is an Archangel but he is not God

Heaven is symbolic for where God dwells.
It is more than symbolic and as a side note it has at least 3 levels but that deserves its own thread.

2 Corinthians 12:2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) such an one caught up to the third heaven.

There is much in scripture that attempts to communicate where
It looks like Heaven is close to the empty spot next to the North Star.

Job 26 He stretcheth out the north over the empty place, and hangeth the earth upon nothing.

Isaiah 14:13 For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:

Angels.
The short answer is that angels are messengers of YHWH. Some may appear in a vision that only one man can see. We are told that some people have entertained angels unawares, indicating that they may just look like men. In Revelation I believe the angels are followers of Yeshua and with Him are fighting the dragon (See description of Mystery Babylon the Great and the beast she rides). The dragon's angels are men who choose to support evil. It is interesting to me that the angel that showed John the vision of Revelation stopped John from worshiping him and said he was "Thy (John's) fellow-servant, and of thy (John's) brethren that have the testimony of Jesus." (Rev. 19:10) I believe angels are messengers of God whether they be mortal man or super natural messengers.

Michael in Revelation is Yeshua. Back in Daniel what is spoken is a reference to Michael, made by a messenger, in a vision that only Daniel saw which vision is referring to the time of Revelation.

Heaven. In the beginning God called the firmament above heaven, and the dry land below earth. After this because of their respective locations relevant to each other they are used symbolically throughout the prophetic books. Heaven being things high, lofty, the sky. Heaven is symbolic for where God dwells. There is much in scripture that attempts to communicate where, what, and even how the kingdom of heaven is manifested. One of the more relevant points I would like to bring out is that it was in existence on the earth. Yeshua told some that the kingdom would be taken from them and given to a nation bringing forth the fruit thereof. He also said that the kingdom of God is within us, and that it cometh not with observation. You cannot buy a plane ticket to the kingdom.
When the kings of old got puffed up and full of pride in their hearts, language like "I will exalt my throne above the stars of God, I will ascend, I will be like the most high" describes their mental and heart condition. Then God would bring them down to "the earth" or to a lower place "the pit." We still use speech that is descriptive. Someone "down to earth" is one who doesn't think more of themselves then they should.

The earth. Earth is of course the creation of our God. Scripture calls it His footstool, but really that is just figurative speech that indicates that YHWH is much bigger then we can comprehend.
The war at the end of the ages, that may not be far off, has Michael and His angels fighting against the dragon and his angels. The dragon is "cast to the earth" or thrown down from the lofty place he occupied. Look at the world and the place that evil currently has in it. The ruler of this system called Mystery Babylon the Great is that dragon. This dragon controls the nations/kings of the world and draws one third of the host of heaven with his tail. These are people professing faith in Christ that are deceived.
I don't want to hijack this thread, but I read an interesting statistic recently that said that one third of evangelical Christians globally support the Zionist movement in Israel that even many Jews are opposed to. In America over half of the Evangelical Christians support Zionism. Those behind Zionism control the media, the monetary systems of the nations, and through their control of the money, the governments/ kings of the nations. I better stop now, as I have probably said more then enough already. I hope this gives you a better idea of how I understand scripture and how it relates to our times and to us as His people.

It seems you are jumping past the plain sense of the scripture and going straight to pictures, types and shadows. They are useful but you can't miss the plain sense of the scripture.

I don't want to hijack this thread, but I read an interesting statistic recently that said that one third of evangelical Christians globally support the Zionist movement in Israel that even many Jews are opposed to. In America over half of the Evangelical Christians support Zionism. Those behind Zionism control the media, the monetary systems of the nations, and through their control of the money, the governments/ kings of the nations. I better stop now, as I have probably said more then enough already. I hope this gives you a better idea of how I understand scripture and how it relates to our times and to us as His people.
I am a die hard Zionist so there is that. This prob deserves its own thread.
 
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