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Is God the source of evil?

But was either evil or darkness made?
Or are they simply the default position?
This is the answer. Darkness doesn’t exist. It’s simply the absence of light. Light is a real, tangible thing that can be observed and measured. Darkness is not. Cold is the same thing. It is an expression of the absence of heat. It doesn’t exist itself. Heat on the other hand is another phiysical thing that can be measured.

Just like dark and cold don’t really exist, they’re just an expression of the absence of something else, evil doesn’t exist (therefor wasn’t created by our perfect God) it is simply an expression of the absence of God.
There is no need to explain away the existence of evil because it doesn’t exist and hence wasn’t created.
 
10And he read the second book, and it contained the unintentional sins of His people, and the LORD said, “Put that book aside, but save it, until one third of the month passes by, to see what they will do.”
Interesting.. Yom haKippurim. Basically, waiting to see if they come in repentance on that day...
 
He was just an earthly king who was also a Cherub and was in Eden and also walked in the fires of creation? Maybe its just me but that seems like one heck of a stretch. I mean isn't it simpler to believe its Lucifer the fallen cherub who is named earlier and has the same imagery used to describe him in multiple books. I think maybe you are getting hung up that Satan means adversary but that is how all Hebrew names work. Like the name Asher means blessed and it is the word for blessed that you would use to describe someone or something. The name given to Satan is the word adversary which describes his character but is also a descriptive word.
Help me get this straight. Your understanding is that the passages you quoted earlier from Ezekiel 28 are talking about a fallen angel/cherub that is Lucifer/satan?
 
Thanks again @Joleneakamama for suggesting we be much fuller in our postings in order to avoid confusion. I have been trying participate on BF on my phone from work which isn't working very well for detailed responses.

I hold to the Amillennialism point of view and believe that the book of Revelations covers from the beginning of time through to the end of time. That the 1000 years means in the completeness of God's time. That the casting out of Satan from heaven happened some time prior to Satan tempting Eve.

I believe that Good means that it is aligned with the nature of God and that His nature, character, and holiness are reflected in the 10 Commandments (Rom. 7). That the absence of Good is called Evil, and that breaking these commandments are considered sin or transgression or an act of evil or lawlessness. That the commandments can be broken with thoughts, words, or actions (Matt. 5).

Adam was created with the ability to go against God's will and Jesus had that same ability. That through Adam's disobedience came sin and death and through Christ's obedience God reconciled the world to Himself. That the desire to commit sin and the wickedness of man's heart, our sinful nature, came after Adam disobeyed God.

I don't believe that pain and suffering are themselves a sin or a type of evil but have become magnified in our broken/fallen world. A lot of pain and suffering comes from either our desires not being the same as God's or it comes from those that do not strive to follow the 10 commandments which cause those around them pain and suffering.
 
Yes... let’s agree to disagree! :D
I disagree strongly that God is the source or maker of evil! .... ummm , cuz He is like holy n stuff!

P.S. not a jab at you Mr. Mage-ster bro / @Mage ... jabbin at another guy :p
 
So for those following along, Revelations 12 is being discussed here, but not cited...

And the great dragon was thrown down, the serpent of old who is called the devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was thrown down to the earth, and his angels were thrown down with him.

And while it is not necessarily clear when in history the whole of the chapter occurs, that verse might be occurring after Christ's birth and resurrection.

Help me get this straight. Your understanding is that the passages you quoted earlier from Ezekiel 28 are talking about a fallen angel/cherub that is Lucifer/satan?

I don't know how you can read this...

Son of man, take up a lamentation upon the king of Tyrus, and say unto him, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Thou sealest up the sum, full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty.

13Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.

14Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.

15Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.

16By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire.

17Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee.

18Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee.

19All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee: thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more.

and think it's talking about a human.

Back to the subject of Satan, this is interesting...

Noah's Sons led astray by Evil Spirits; Noah's Prayer; Mastêmâ; Death of Noah (x. 1-17; cf. Gen. ix. 28).
X. 1 And in the third week of this jubilee the unclean demons 2 began to lead astray †the children of† 3 the sons of Noah; and to make to err and destroy them. 2. And the sons of Noah came to Noah their father, and they told him concerning the demons which were, leading astray and blinding and slaying his sons' sons. 3. And he prayed before the Lord his God, and said:

God of the spirits of all flesh, 4 who hast shown mercy unto me,
And hast saved me and my sons from the waters of the flood,
And hast not caused me to perish as Thou didst the sons of perdition; 5

For Thy grace hath been great towards me,
And great hath been Thy mercy to my soul;
Let Thy grace be lift up upon my sons,
And let not wicked spirits rule over them
Lest they should destroy them from the earth.

[paragraph continues] 4. But do Thou bless me and my sons, that we may increase and multiply and replenish the earth. 5. And Thou knowest how Thy Watchers, the fathers of these spirits, acted in my day: and as for these spirits which are living, imprison them and hold them fast in the place of condemnation, and let them not bring destruction on the sons of thy servant, my God; for these are malignant, and created in

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order to destroy. 6. And let them not rule over the spirits of the living; for Thou alone canst exercise dominion over them. And let them not have power over the sons of the righteous from henceforth and for evermore." 7. And the Lord our God bade us to bind all. 1 8. And the chief of the spirits, Mastêmâ, 2 came and said: "Lord, Creator, let some of them remain before me, and let them hearken to my voice, and do all that I shall say unto them; for if some of them are not left to me, I shall not be able to execute the power of my will on the sons of men; for these are for corruption and leading astray before my judgment, for great is the wickedness of the sons of men." 9. And He said: "Let the tenth part of them remain before him, and let nine parts descend into the place of condemnation." 3 10. And one of us 4 He commanded that we should teach Noah all their medicines; for He knew that they would not walk in uprightness, nor strive in righteousness. 11. And we did according to all His words: all the malignant evil ones we bound in the place of condemnation, and a tenth part of them we left that they might be subject before Satan 5 on the earth. 12. And we explained to Noah all the medicines of their diseases, together with their seductions, how he might heal them with herbs of the earth. 13. And Noah wrote down all things in a book as we instructed him concerning every kind of medicine. Thus the evil

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spirits were precluded from (hurting) the sons of Noah. 14. And he gave all that he had written to Shem, his eldest son; for he loved him exceedingly above all his sons. 15. And Noah slept with his fathers, and was buried on Mount Lûbâr in the land of Ararat. 16. Nine hundred and fifty years he completed in his life, nineteen jubilees and two
1659 A.M.weeks and five years. 17. And in his life on earth he excelled the children of men save Enoch because of the righteousness, wherein he was perfect. For Enoch's office was ordained for a testimony to the generations of the world, 1 so that he should recount all the deeds of generation unto generation, till the day of judgment.
 
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So for those following along, Revelations 12 is being discussed here
Yes thank you @rockfox I missed pointing that out. :)

The disagreement as I understand it is between was the devil/Satan cast out of heaven in the beginning of time (pre-eating from the tree in the garden) or is the devil/Satan yet to be cast out and this won't happen until the end of time.

Now what is encompassed in the words Good and Evil as well as how a lot of things are viewed in the scriptures depends on your perspective of when the devil/Satan was/will be cast out of heaven.

To tackle this discussion it seems like it would need to go through a lot of different stances in both perspectives and I don't think this format (text on the internet) would be very productive for this particular conversation.

This is why I think @Keith Martin is right that agreeing to disagree is the best way forward at this time.
 
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The disagreement as I understand it is between was the devil/Satan cast out of heaven in the beginning of time (pre-eating from the tree in the garden) or is the devil/Satan yet to be cast out and this won't happen until the end of time.

Could it have happened right after the fall in the cursing? And from reading Rev 12 it sounds like it may have happened sometime between now and AD 33.

I don't have many firm opinions on Revelations, but I don't care for those which paint it all in the future or all in the past. They're usually little more than escapist interpretations.
 
I don't know how you can read this...

and think it's talking about a human.

Quite simply. Because it says it is talking about the king of Tyre. I then look for the prophetic or symbolic meaning in the scripture.

Who do you believe it is talking about?
 
For what its worth, It wouldn’t surprise me in the slightest if Satan had become an actual ruler of multiple kingdoms throughout the history of the world.
I believe there have been many kings in the world that have been satan, as in adversaries. In this specific case of the king of Tyre we have the prophet speaking for YHWH saying that the prince of Tyre (son of the king) is specifically a man. This to my way of thinking rules out the king being anything but a mortal man. I think it is easier to understand the figurative language spoken to the king then make it say something that it doesn't.

Mountains in prophesy are nations.
The stones of fire are the gemstones representing the tribes of Israel.
Remember Joseph's dream? The sun the moon and the 11 stars were not celestial bodies.
I think I could go on with symbolism in scripture, but that is probably best left to another thread.
 
Yes... let’s agree to disagree! :D
I disagree strongly that God is the source or maker of evil! .... ummm , cuz He is like holy n stuff!

P.S. not a jab at you Mr. Mage-ster bro / @Mage ... jabbin at another guy :p
And that 'another guy' is living rent-free in your brain, Rusty.

#HashTag
 
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Could it have happened right after the fall in the cursing? And from reading Rev 12 it sounds like it may have happened sometime between now and AD 33.

I don't have many firm opinions on Revelations, but I don't care for those which paint it all in the future or all in the past. They're usually little more than escapist interpretations.


Where does this prophecy from Isaiah 11 fit in? Especially verses 12 - 17

3 And it shall come to pass in the day that the LORD shall give thee rest from thy sorrow, and from thy fear, and from the hard bondage wherein thou wast made to serve,

4 That thou shalt take up this proverb against the king of Babylon, and say, How hath the oppressor ceased! the golden city ceased! note note

5 The LORD hath broken the staff of the wicked, and the sceptre of the rulers.

6 He who smote the people in wrath with a continual stroke, he that ruled the nations in anger, is persecuted, andnone hindereth. note

7 The whole earth is at rest, and is quiet: they break forth into singing.

8 Yea, the fir trees rejoice at thee, andthe cedars of Lebanon, saying, Since thou art laid down, no feller is come up against us.

9 Hell from beneath is moved for thee to meet thee at thy coming: it stirreth up the dead for thee, even all the chief ones of the earth; it hath raised up from their thrones all the kings of the nations. note note

10 All they shall speak and say unto thee, Art thou also become weak as we? art thou become like unto us?

11 Thy pomp is brought down to the grave, and the noise of thy viols: the worm is spread under thee, and the worms cover thee.

12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations! note(Compare)

13 For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:

14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.

15 Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.

16 They that see thee shall narrowly look upon thee, and consider thee, saying, Is this the man that made the earth to tremble, that did shake kingdoms;

17 That made the world as a wilderness, and destroyed the cities thereof; that opened not the house of his prisoners? note

18 All the kings of the nations, evenall of them, lie in glory, every one in his own house.

19 But thou art cast out of thy grave like an abominable branch, and as the raiment of those that are slain, thrust through with a sword, that go down to the stones of the pit; as a carcase trodden under feet.

20 Thou shalt not be joined with them in burial, because thou hast destroyed thy land, and slain thy people: the seed of evildoers shall never be renowned.

21 Prepare slaughter for his children for the iniquity of their fathers; that they do not rise, nor possess the land, nor fill the face of the world with cities
 
I want to point out that we are told that He created the light.
Only the light.

I would believe that YaHWeH created Darkness when He created Heaven and Earth.

In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
Genesis 1:1‭-‬2 KJV

But then again it could be a byproduct of his creation. That's the reason for...

And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.
Genesis 1:3 KJV

Like @steve said.
 
Where does this prophecy from Isaiah 11 fit in? Especially verses 12 - 17

3 And it shall come to pass in the day that the LORD shall give thee rest from thy sorrow, and from thy fear, and from the hard bondage wherein thou wast made to serve,

4 That thou shalt take up this proverb against the king of Babylon, and say, How hath the oppressor ceased! the golden city ceased! note note

5 The LORD hath broken the staff of the wicked, and the sceptre of the rulers.

6 He who smote the people in wrath with a continual stroke, he that ruled the nations in anger, is persecuted, andnone hindereth. note

7 The whole earth is at rest, and is quiet: they break forth into singing.

8 Yea, the fir trees rejoice at thee, andthe cedars of Lebanon, saying, Since thou art laid down, no feller is come up against us.

9 Hell from beneath is moved for thee to meet thee at thy coming: it stirreth up the dead for thee, even all the chief ones of the earth; it hath raised up from their thrones all the kings of the nations. note note

10 All they shall speak and say unto thee, Art thou also become weak as we? art thou become like unto us?

11 Thy pomp is brought down to the grave, and the noise of thy viols: the worm is spread under thee, and the worms cover thee.

12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations! note(Compare)

13 For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:

14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.

15 Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.

16 They that see thee shall narrowly look upon thee, and consider thee, saying, Is this the man that made the earth to tremble, that did shake kingdoms;

17 That made the world as a wilderness, and destroyed the cities thereof; that opened not the house of his prisoners? note

18 All the kings of the nations, evenall of them, lie in glory, every one in his own house.

19 But thou art cast out of thy grave like an abominable branch, and as the raiment of those that are slain, thrust through with a sword, that go down to the stones of the pit; as a carcase trodden under feet.

20 Thou shalt not be joined with them in burial, because thou hast destroyed thy land, and slain thy people: the seed of evildoers shall never be renowned.

21 Prepare slaughter for his children for the iniquity of their fathers; that they do not rise, nor possess the land, nor fill the face of the world with cities

In comparison with verses 12 & 16, it would appear that Lucifer actually is considered a man by those around him. Also called a king of Babylon and the oppressor in verse 4

I don’t have time now to search it out on my phone but it would be better interesting to see if the Hebrew word for oppressor and adversary are the same or connected.
 
Quite simply. Because it says it is talking about the king of Tyre. I then look for the prophetic or symbolic meaning in the scripture.

Who do you believe it is talking about?

Every single bit of those 8 verses is describing Satan or a similar spiritual entity, except the three words "king of Tyrus". Why do you prioritize those three words over "anointed cherub that covereth" and every other detail. We know Satan often rules the kingdoms of this world. It could also be that that particular human king thought himself a god (v2) and so God is likening him unto Satan as a warning. But the details of that likening are the details of Satan. But the details can't be of a human at that time as no human alive had lived in Eden.

Where does this prophecy from Isaiah 11 fit in? Especially verses 12 - 17

IDK

I would believe that YaHWeH created Darkness when He created Heaven and Earth.

In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
Genesis 1:1‭-‬2 KJV

But then again it could be a byproduct of his creation. That's the reason for...

And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.
Genesis 1:3 KJV

Like @steve said.


"and to separate the light from the darkness"

Or is it just a side effect? Darkness just is; but it get's separated out. Just as good from evil, sheep from goats, land from water.
 
I would believe that YaHWeH created Darkness when He created Heaven and Earth.

In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
Genesis 1:1‭-‬2 KJV

But then again it could be a byproduct of his creation. That's the reason for...

And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.
Genesis 1:3 KJV
Or is it just a side effect? Darkness just is; but it get's separated out. Just as good from evil, sheep from goats, land from water.

Another way to look at this is:
(V. 2) There was no light (darkness)
(v. 3) when God created light it was all encompassing, no darkness.
(V. 4)Then God formed the point from which the light is coming. That way one side of the Earth can be lit while the other is not.
(V. 5)Then God calls the lit side of the Earth day and the non-lit night.
 
In comparison with verses 12 & 16, it would appear that Lucifer actually is considered a man by those around him. Also called a king of Babylon and the oppressor in verse 4

I don’t have time now to search it out on my phone but it would be better interesting to see if the Hebrew word for oppressor and adversary are the same or connected.
I'm at work so can't really comment but higher spiritual beings are often given territories. Look at the answer to Daniels prayers being restrained by the Prince of Persia and Michael having to get involved to get the answer through. Calvanism really misses the point that there is a war going on.
 
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