https://www.amazon.com/Ten-Parts-King-Prophesied-Reconciliation-ebook/dp/B07K3QJQ31
That's the Kindle version.
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That's the Kindle version.
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It's simply amazing how this all turns to me when all that needs to be done is answer a simple question that would surely solve the problem. But think what you will I am really starting to understand where we all are when it comes to holding all things in common. And you are correct, why pretend to live in a world of love when it's not really there.
Let me give you a hint.
One of you is teaching his beliefs generically and not singling anyone out.
The other is taking things personally and calling the other out personally, by name.
If you don’t feel convicted, let it go.
Matthew 13:30 (KJV)
Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.
Focus on being wheat and not a tare, you are not Chief of the harvest and He says to let it go.
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Sorry but you are wrong in your assessment, this is about trying to find out exactly were people are in relationship and one of us is not being honest and pretending to care about the idea of getting along when in reality all they want is it to be thier way. And you know Steve, this IS personal, spiritual relationships are personal, it is about real love between real brothers, not this fake crap that is pretended here. I do not like being preached at about Torah ways. It may be good for others, even you, but it's not for me and there is a section for generic teaching on the subject within this forum about polygamy. This is my thread and I wanted to discuss holding all things in common and I for one believe the idea of following a legalistic view as apposed to loving relationship with God does create division among followers. And that's the point I am trying to make And this has turned out to be an actual exercises in reality for me.
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Well, one of you is being a bit of a bother, but I wasn’t going to mention it.
I really do understand who you are.
I’m not promoting them they definitely have some different theology than what I believe but apparently they make the whole community thing work...
If you believe you are correct, and someone else is not, does it matter if he believes your assessment? Does it invalidate your belief? I've already stated that I'm not a whole Torah follower, but if someone thinks I'm going to Hell over it, it's not their opinion I need to worry about. Only God is my judge.
Thanks for the link. I've never heard of them before. Maybe when I get a little time I'll find out more about them.
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"Family peace and wholeness comes when we recognize the legitimacy of the other bride and choose, CHOOSE, to walk at peace and harmony, rejoicing in what makes the Husband joyful about the other!! Imagine how selfless and revolutionary that Leah can JOY in the relationship of Jacob with Rachel and likewise, Rachel can be excited concerning the relationship that Jacob has with Leah. That is the point at which true unity comes to the family and envy and jealousy are put away. That is the time of their healing!!
So, to answer the opening question, indeed, God does have two brides. Will we accept this truth and walk in peace with each other, or, will He be forced to put us in a crucible? That is the real question."
@Mojo, I appreciate your attempt to find a place of peace here, but my question is, where is the person who wrote this, why isn't he doing it.
This is not about whether a belief is correct or not, it's about accepting anothers belief even if it's different than yours, in relationship to God and His activity in another person's life. (Not accepting it in the sense of living it, but accepting it because it's different than yours and not your problem.) Not accepting it is claiming that ones actions is better than another. And you are correct it really is between an individual believer and God. However, there comes a time when people need to be honest and not hide behind false pretenses. Saying you love your brother but secretly know that accepting (tolerating) thier belief somehow undermines your own is not being honest with a brother or yourself.
The problem is in the preaching. Saying that the only way to God is through legalistic adherence is the only way doesn't live much room to say that Grace and Mercy are ANOTHER way. The ways of one wife is not better than the other, and in reality it's the husband's responsibilitiy to deal with not the other wife.
Now, I will say that the majority of Torah followers here do practice that principal of tolerance for the most part, as I try to do also. I know they believe what they believe for themselves for a reason, and I have mine. It's the forceful preaching that becomes the problem. I seriously don't think it's possible to hold all things in common with these two distinctly different directions. And really to be honest I think this whole thing is my fault. It's my fault because I hoped that there could be more here. But in reality this is just a group of believers that happen to believe in polygamy, and that's all it will ever be. My fault for wanting more. (And that's not some sly statement meaning something else)
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@Cap, he's already answered the question, and in more words than yes/no to make it very clear exactly what he means by it to ensure there was no misunderstanding. Let it go.
If you give all you have to a commune, and live in the commune, you still have access to your possessions, you're just sharing them. But if you give them to the poor, you don't have them any longer.
Also, if you give all you have to a commune, you no longer have the right to give any of it away to the poor, as you no longer control it. You'd have to ask a committee for permission to give it to the poor, and anyone who has had experience with committees will know how lengthy and frustrating a process that would be. The more I consider it, the more I think these passages might be a very strong argument against forming a commune, because it may actually restrict your ability to be generous.
This brings me back to this being about attitude, not structure. If we "hold all things in common" by holding, in our minds, that they belong to God not us, and therefore belong to His people as a whole, we are able to give freely. So this is a mindset that allows us to do exactly what scripture says, within a structure (self-ownership of property) that allows us to do it immediately on the prompting of the Spirit without having to ask anybody else's permission first.
Back to the original topic, which is a good topic and I'd like to see us keep discussing it rather than debating Torah which seems almost completely irrelevant:
Those verses do not say "give everything you have to the church and start a commune". Rather, they say give everything you have "to the poor" or "give alms" (same thing said differently). Not the church, the poor.
If you give all you have to a commune, and live in the commune, you still have access to your possessions, you're just sharing them. But if you give them to the poor, you don't have them any longer.
Also, if you give all you have to a commune, you no longer have the right to give any of it away to the poor, as you no longer control it. You'd have to ask a committee for permission to give it to the poor, and anyone who has had experience with committees will know how lengthy and frustrating a process that would be. The more I consider it, the more I think these passages might be a very strong argument against forming a commune, because it may actually restrict your ability to be generous.
This brings me back to this being about attitude, not structure. If we "hold all things in common" by holding, in our minds, that they belong to God not us, and therefore belong to His people as a whole, we are able to give freely. So this is a mindset that allows us to do exactly what scripture says, within a structure (self-ownership of property) that allows us to do it immediately on the prompting of the Spirit without having to ask anybody else's permission first.
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This is the real answer and not consistent with the statements made about accepting of another wife's belief. "Family peace and wholeness comes when we recognize the legitimacy of the other bride and choose, CHOOSE, to walk at peace and harmony, rejoicing in what makes the Husband joyful about the other!! And this is not about Torah but about acceptance. But I will let it go because I know now who he is to me. I don't live in pretense.
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27Indeed Herod and Pontius Pilate met together with the Gentiles and the people of Israel in this city to conspire against your holy servant Jesus, whom you anointed. 28They did what your power and will had decided beforehand should happen. 29Now, Lord, consider their threats and enable your servants to speak your word with great boldness. 30Stretch out your hand to heal and perform signs and wonders through the name of your holy servant Jesus.”
31After they prayed, the place where they were meeting was shaken. And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and spoke the word of God boldly. 32All the believers were one in heart and mind. No one claimed that any of their possessions was their own, but they shared everything they had. 33With great power the apostles continued to testify to the resurrection of the Lord Jesus. And God’s grace was so powerfully at work in them all 34that there were no needy persons among them.
I think it can be safely reasoned that God's presents will be displayed in a community that is united under Him, and it can also be safely reasoned that He will not be present in one that is not united under Him.
31After they prayed, the place where they were meeting was shaken. And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and spoke the word of God boldly. 32All the believers were one in heart and mind. No one claimed that any of their possessions was their own, but they shared everything they had. 33With great power the apostles continued to testify to the resurrection of the Lord Jesus. And God’s grace was so powerfully at work in them all 34that there were no needy persons among them.
I think it can be safely reasoned that God's presents will be displayed in a community that is united under Him, and it can also be safely reasoned that He will not be present in one that is not united under Him.
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There's a difference between "not claiming" your possessions are your own, and actively claiming that they belong to a particular organisational structure. To assume this means what we see today as a "commune" is basically a straw man argument - it reads a particular modern institution into these words, that can be interpreted in multiple ways, and then says "therefore this particular modern institution must be righteous because God blessed this past event that I've just assumed was the same".
To illustrate this with some specific examples:
Small example: In a serious commune like Gloriavale you don't even have petty cash, you have to get permission for everything. If you need cash, you have to request it for a particular purpose, and that purpose has to be to further the common goals of the community. You carry no cash except for that agreed purpose. So how can you drop a dollar in a beggar's hat / charity bucket / buskers violin case, if you have nothing that belongs to you to give?
Big example: Just imagine the elder's meeting that would occur if you walked home because you'd given away the van you were driving... You'd be excommunicated on the spot and probably then prosecuted for theft in the same way you would be if you gave away a vehicle belonging to your employer. Legally, a commune will use standard trust / company / partnership structures and even employment contracts etc to work within the legal framework of the country. So if you give away a large asset, you're actually giving away an on-the-books company asset, and are legally no different to an employee stealing from his employer.
Ok I'm going to show a cultural example. Romni who work pay Kimoni (a tithe) to their father until they are married and have children. Then they pay it to the BaroRom (patriarch) of the kumpania (clan/kind of) who pays Kimoni to the Kris. The money held by the father is for the future of his children. The money held by the BaroRom is for the benifit of the Kumpania. The money held by the Kris is for the benifit of the local Kumpanias of his tribe. If a father is in need he goes to the BaroRom. If the BaroRom is in need for his Kumpania he goes to the Kris. if the Kris is in need he goes to the rest of the Kristoria. The money that is held is held in common for the betterment of the people. What I own and have I is a blessing from Adonai, who is our provider, to be used for providing for my family and those who are my parla (brothers/cousins by blood or choice) or whom ever I please. There are times when because of great need or persecution that the money from kimono is spent and it's up to the local Rom to come together and take care if those in need. It's not payed back. It's given by the BaroRom so the Rom does not feel indebted to anyone. We hold that every blessing given to one is to be shared with other Romani or our cushna. Cushna is a concept but literally means basket. When you collect eggs from a gaggle of hens you put them in the basket. When it's time for the eggs to be washed, cooked and eaten it doesn't matter what hen they came from just that there all in the same basket and share the same fate. To me that's what holding all things in common means. I've been blessed to live in a community that holds such relationships and beleifs in common. I've been blessed to see that such arrangements can and do work. I've been blessed to be persecuted along with my parla for living in such away so that I know it's Good for the world hates what is Good.