Holding all things in common

[rockfox]

I can see a great value in Christian community. However, the serious issue with holding all in common is that you can hand all your assets to the church thinking they're going in a good direction, then they turn bad and use your own assets for evil, and you leave with nothing but the clothes on your back. Gloriavale was founded on the farm of a man who gave it to the community, then left with nothing, his family inheritence and even his children gone to the group. It's just too risky when you have large assets at stake.

I can see great value in marriage. However, the serious issue with marriage is you hand all your assets to the relationship thinking they're going in a good direction, then she turns bad and uses your own assets for evil, and you leave with nothing but the clothes on your back. Half of all marriages are founded by a man who then leaves with nothing, all his hard earned work, even his children, gone to the group. It's just too risky to get married when she can take your kids, money and then enslave you for another 18 years to finance her lifestyle.

Do you support the same logic when applied to Biblical principles you choose hold more dear?

 

[Asforme&myhouse]

It worked for the early believers. So what is wrong with us that so many think it can't work? And how can we change ourselves?

Meh, kind of. It worked for a time. Things then weren’t exactly like they are today. We don’t have the Apostles who’s teaching was on the level of Scripture running the commune. It’s a lot easier to be of one mind when you can take any doctrinal disagreements to twelve guys who have the God given authority to say what goes and what doesn’t.

 

[rockfox]

Meh, kind of. It worked for a time. Things then weren’t exactly like they are today. We don’t have the Apostles who’s teaching was on the level of Scripture running the commune. It’s a lot easier to be of one mind when you can take any doctrinal disagreements to twelve guys who have the God given authority to say what goes and what doesn’t.

But it's not like it ended for long. Monasteries were soon to follow and have running successfully for almost 1700 years. And there have been successful Christian communes made up of families at various times since. Even non-Christians who do not have the Holy Spirit are able to make it work today.

 

[steve]

Mostly what isn’t accounted for when people discuss living in community at the level of all things in common is spiritual opposition.
The enemy assigns more of his assets against people/situations that have the potential to do his kingdom the most damage.
We are already on his radar for believing in Biblical marriage as we do. Start practicing it and see what level of spiritual warfare you encounter.
Then throw in trying to hold all things in common with other intense believers.
If you are looking for a way to achieve the most opposition possible, that’s your recipe. And people can barely handle the opposition that they already have, in fact, many haven’t.

I can, but not with the quality of Christians that one finds in this country

Then why bother promoting it?

what is wrong with us that so many think it can't work? And how can we change ourselves?

We can change ourselves, and should. But we are not going to be able to change enough other people to make it work.

My recommendation is to focus on living in proximity with everyone owning their own possessions and sacrificially helping one another. Maybe it could morph into something more complicated, but there would be less chance of destroying families in the experiment.

 

[rockfox]

Then why bother promoting it?

Because it's Biblical. And it uniquely highlights the appropriate scriptural viewpoint on mammon.

There is another form of commune that is less apparent to us today because it's been wiped out: clans. The Celtic people held all things in common at the clan level under a patriarch; but as a matter of course those goods were divided among the people and managed by them. It worked very well for them for hundreds if not thousands of years. But I know little of the details.

Think: commune at the extended family level. It's a more localized and personalized form.

 

[steve]

Because it's Biblical.

Is there a place in the Bible where it is recommended, rather than just reported?

 

[Asforme&myhouse]

But it's not like it ended for long. Monasteries were soon to follow and have running successfully for almost 1700 years. And there have been successful Christian communes made up of families at various times since. Even non-Christians who do not have the Holy Spirit are able to make it work today.

You’ve mentioned monasteries several times recently as if they were a good thing. I’m not sure what kind of monasteries you’re talking about, but the monasteries of Europe left a lot to be desired. They were fraught with false doctrine, greed, homosexuality, and prideful self righteousness. They were known for hoarding wealth while people living around them were destitute. The monasteries existed on the tithes of the laity.

When the Vikings were pillaging Europe, they hit the monasteries, because the common people were poor while the monasteries were bulging with treasure.

Because it's Biblical. And it uniquely highlights the appropriate scriptural viewpoint on mammon.

How do you figure?

Yes it happened in Scripture but it wasn’t promoted in the epistles. When Paul asked some of the gentile believers to give, he told them to let each decide what he wanted to give. If all things were held in common he would have just told the elders to give a gift out of the common pot.

The scriptural view point of mammon is that it should be stewarded and used for godly purposes, including taking care of your own family. Remember that only widows who where “widows indeed” should be cared for by the assembly, everyone else was to provide for their own family.

 

[Verifyveritas76]

My recommendation is to focus on living in proximity with everyone owning their own possessions and sacrificially helping one another. Maybe it could morph into something more complicated,

And this is where it always goes wrong

 

[rockfox]

Is there a place in the Bible where it is recommended, rather than just reported?

Yes, and in very strong terms...

One thing you still lack; sell all that you possess and distribute it to the poor, and you shall have treasure in heaven; and come, follow Me.

and

32“Do not fear, little flock, for it is your Father’s good pleasure to give you the kingdom. 33Sell what you have and give alms; provide yourselves money bags which do not grow old, a treasure in the heavens that does not fail, where no thief approaches nor moth destroys. 34For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also.

So yes there are many injunctions to this sort of life (yet more commands below). I realize this is a hard sell, these commands from Christ are almost universally ignored and directly contrary to everything about the Western/American way of life. But they are true nonetheless.

Now this isn't just about living in a commune, there are other ways to fulfill it such as Poustinikki (see also The Russians' Secret).

What we see in Acts is more than just mere history of something that happened. It is evidence of what kind of fruit one should see from people becoming Christians, evidence of what real Christian community should look like. Yes they had the Apostles there; but that doesn't mean only they could truly live out the Christian life. God has not left us hamstrung and unequipped. But it does mean they may be our best and purest example for what the Christian life should look like.

What we see in Acts is also a direct fulfillment of Christ's numerous injunctions on money and worldly possessions...

Whenever you fast, do not put on a gloomy face as the hypocrites do, for they neglect their appearance so that they will be noticed by men when they are fasting. Truly I say to you, they have their reward in full. 17“But you, when you fast, anoint your head and wash your face 18so that your fasting will not be noticed by men, but by your Father who is in secret; and your Father who sees what is done in secret will reward you.

19“Do not store up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moth and rust destroy, and where thieves break in and steal. 20“But store up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust destroys, and where thieves do not break in or steal; 21for where your treasure is, there your heart will be also.

22“The eye is the lamp of the body; so then if your eye is clear, your whole body will be full of light. 23“But if your eye is bad, your whole body will be full of darkness. If then the light that is in you is darkness, how great is the darkness!

24“No one can serve two masters; for either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to one and despise the other. You cannot serve God and wealth.

and

13Then one from the crowd said to Him, “Teacher, tell my brother to divide the inheritance with me.”

14But He said to him, “Man, who made Me a judge or an arbitrator over you?” 15And He said to them, “Take heed and beware of [c]covetousness, for one’s life does not consist in the abundance of the things he possesses.”

16Then He spoke a parable to them, saying: “The ground of a certain rich man yielded plentifully. 17And he thought within himself, saying, ‘What shall I do, since I have no room to store my crops?’ 18So he said, ‘I will do this: I will pull down my barns and build greater, and there I will store all my crops and my goods. 19And I will say to my soul, “Soul, you have many goods laid up for many years; take your ease; eat, drink, and be merry.” ’ 20But God said to him, ‘Fool! This night your soul will be required of you; then whose will those things be which you have provided?’

21“So is he who lays up treasure for himself, and is not rich toward God.”

22Then He said to His disciples, “Therefore I say to you, do not worry about your life, what you will eat; nor about the body, what you will put on. 23Life is more than food, and the body is more than clothing. 24Consider the ravens, for they neither sow nor reap, which have neither storehouse nor barn; and God feeds them. Of how much more value are you than the birds? 25And which of you by worrying can add one cubit to his stature? 26If you then are not able to do the least, why [d]are you anxious for the rest? 27Consider the lilies, how they grow: they neither toil nor spin; and yet I say to you, even Solomon in all his glory was not [e]arrayed like one of these. 28If then God so clothes the grass, which today is in the field and tomorrow is thrown into the oven, how much more will He clothe you, O you of little faith?

29“And do not seek what you should eat or what you should drink, nor have an anxious mind. 30For all these things the nations of the world seek after, and your Father knows that you need these things. 31But seek [f]the kingdom of God, and all these things shall be added to you.

32“Do not fear, little flock, for it is your Father’s good pleasure to give you the kingdom. 33Sell what you have and give alms; provide yourselves money bags which do not grow old, a treasure in the heavens that does not fail, where no thief approaches nor moth destroys. 34For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also.

35“Let your waist be girded and your lamps burning; 36and you yourselves be like men who wait for their master, when he will return from the wedding, that when he comes and knocks they may open to him immediately. 37Blessed are those servants whom the master, when he comes, will find watching. Assuredly, I say to you that he will gird himself and have them sit down to eat, and will come and serve them. 38And if he should come in the second watch, or come in the third watch, and find them so, blessed are those servants. 39But know this, that if the master of the house had known what hour the thief would come, he would [g]have watched and not allowed his house to be broken into. 40Therefore you also be ready, for the Son of Man is coming at an hour you do not expect.”

41Then Peter said to Him, “Lord, do You speak this parable only to us, or to all people?”

42And the Lord said, “Who then is that faithful and wise steward, whom his master will make ruler over his household, to give them their portion of food [h]in due season? 43Blessed is that servant whom his master will find so doing when he comes. 44Truly, I say to you that he will make him ruler over all that he has. 45But if that servant says in his heart, ‘My master is delaying his coming,’ and begins to beat the male and female servants, and to eat and drink and be drunk, 46the master of that servant will come on a day when he is not looking for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in two and appoint him his portion with the unbelievers. 47And that servant who knew his master’s will, and did not prepare himself or do according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes. 48But he who did not know, yet committed things deserving of stripes, shall be beaten with few. For everyone to whom much is given, from him much will be required; and to whom much has been committed, of him they will ask the more.

and

1He also said to His disciples: “There was a certain rich man who had a steward, and an accusation was brought to him that this man was [a]wasting his goods. 2So he called him and said to him, ‘What is this I hear about you? Give an account of your stewardship, for you can no longer be steward.’

3“Then the steward said within himself, ‘What shall I do? For my master is taking the stewardship away from me. I cannot dig; I am ashamed to beg. 4I have resolved what to do, that when I am put out of the stewardship, they may receive me into their houses.’

5“So he called every one of his master’s debtors to him, and said to the first, ‘How much do you owe my master?’ 6And he said, ‘A hundred measures of oil.’ So he said to him, ‘Take your bill, and sit down quickly and write fifty.’ 7Then he said to another, ‘And how much do you owe?’ So he said, ‘A hundred [c]measures of wheat.’ And he said to him, ‘Take your bill, and write eighty.’ 8So the master commended the unjust steward because he had dealt shrewdly. For the sons of this world are more shrewd in their generation than the sons of light.

9“And I say to you, make friends for yourselves by unrighteous [d]mammon, that when [e]you fail, they may receive you into an everlasting home. 10He who is faithful in what is least is faithful also in much; and he who is unjust in what is least is unjust also in much. 11Therefore if you have not been faithful in the unrighteous mammon, who will commit to your trust the true riches? 12And if you have not been faithful in what is another man’s, who will give you what is your own?

13“No servant can serve two masters; for either he will hate the one and love the other, or else he will be loyal to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve God and mammon.”

The Law, the Prophets, and the Kingdom
14Now the Pharisees, who were lovers of money, also heard all these things, and they [f]derided Him. 15And He said to them, “You are those who justify yourselves before men, but God knows your hearts. For what is highly esteemed among men is an abomination in the sight of God.

and

23Then He said to them all, “If anyone desires to come after Me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow Me. 24For whoever desires to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for My sake will save it. 25For what profit is it to a man if he gains the whole world, and is himself destroyed or lost? 26For whoever is ashamed of Me and My words, of him the Son of Man will be ashamed when He comes in His own glory, and in His Father’s, and of the holy angels. 27But I tell you truly, there are some standing here who shall not taste death till they see the kingdom of God.”
...
57Now it happened as they journeyed on the road, that someone said to Him, “Lord, I will follow You wherever You go.”

58And Jesus said to him, “Foxes have holes and birds of the air have nests, but the Son of Man has nowhere to lay His head.”

59Then He said to another, “Follow Me.”

But he said, “Lord, let me first go and bury my father.”

60Jesus said to him, “Let the dead bury their own dead, but you go and preach the kingdom of God.”

61And another also said, “Lord, I will follow You, but let me first go and bid them farewell who are at my house.”

62But Jesus said to him, “No one, having put his hand to the plow, and looking back, is fit for the kingdom of God.”

and

44“Again, the kingdom of heaven is like treasure hidden in a field, which a man found and hid; and for joy over it he goes and sells all that he has and buys that field.

45“Again, the kingdom of heaven is like a merchant seeking beautiful pearls, 46who, when he had found one pearl of great price, went and sold all that he had and bought it.

Paul also echo's Christ's words...

3If anyone teaches otherwise and does not consent to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the [a]doctrine which accords with godliness, 4he is proud, knowing nothing, but is obsessed with disputes and arguments over words, from which come envy, strife, reviling, evil suspicions, 5useless wranglings of men of corrupt minds and destitute of the truth, who suppose that godliness is a means of gain. [c]From such withdraw yourself.

6Now godliness with contentment is great gain. 7For we brought nothing into this world, [d]and it is certain we can carry nothing out. 8And having food and clothing, with these we shall be content. 9But those who desire to be rich fall into temptation and a snare, and into many foolish and harmful lusts which drown men in destruction and perdition. 10For the love of money is a root of all kinds of evil, for which some have strayed from the faith in their greediness, and pierced themselves through with many sorrows.

The Good Confession
11But you, O man of God, flee these things and pursue righteousness, godliness, faith, love, patience, gentleness. 12Fight the good fight of faith, lay hold on eternal life, to which you were also called and have confessed the good confession in the presence of many witnesses. 13I urge you in the sight of God who gives life to all things, and before Christ Jesus who witnessed the good confession before Pontius Pilate, 14that you keep this commandment without spot, blameless until our Lord Jesus Christ’s appearing, 15which He will manifest in His own time, He who is the blessed and only [e]Potentate, the King of kings and Lord of lords, 16who alone has immortality, dwelling in unapproachable light, whom no man has seen or can see, to whom be honor and everlasting power. Amen.

Instructions to the Rich
17Command those who are rich in this present age not to be haughty, nor to trust in uncertain riches but in the living God, who gives us richly all things to enjoy. 18Let them do good, that they be rich in good works, ready to give, willing to share, 19storing up for themselves a good foundation for the time to come, that they may lay hold on eternal life.

And that's without touching on all the scripture injunctions against debt.

There is no defense for the American/Western approach. Whatever the fulfillment of these commands will be, it will be radical from the Western perspective. The usual American way of handling wealth and material possessions is directly contrary to scripture.

In related matters...I was thinking about the clan thing today. It's not completely dead, just hidden and uncommon. Rockefellers, Kennedies, Windsors, etc use something along this line structurally. Not that they in any way fulfill Christ's injunctions for how to use wealth.

 

[rockfox]

You’ve mentioned monasteries several times recently as if they were a good thing. I’m not sure what kind of monasteries you’re talking about, but the monasteries of Europe left a lot to be desired. They were fraught with false doctrine, greed, homosexuality, and prideful self righteousness. They were known for hoarding wealth while people living around them were destitute. The monasteries existed on the tithes of the laity.

When the Vikings were pillaging Europe, they hit the monasteries, because the common people were poor while the monasteries were bulging with treasure.

Monasteries in their original form were people who took a vow of poverty. They were not meant to be the wealth accumulating enterprises they became in that time. Yes there were abuses and ungodly activities. But they are still a good example of one way to live out Christ's injunctions and a good counter example of what happens when you separate the form from the function and go back to storing up treasure on earth.

A lot of the problems came not from voluntary tithes, but from the mandatory church taxes collected by the state. Yet more evidence of the problem with commingling church and state and from desiring other peoples money instead of giving freely of the fruits of your own labors.

 

[FollowingHim2]

Monasteries in their original form were people who took a vow of poverty. They were not meant to be the wealth accumulating enterprises they became in that time. Yes there were abuses and ungodly activities.

Yeah, that's basically the point though. These things start off good, and over time they end up in a mess. Suddenly they're accumulating wealth and there's sexual abuse going on and all sorts of problems.
Why? Because people are corruptible.

 

[FollowingHim2]

I certainly do not know enough about them to recommend them. I do think the community is interesting and instructive if only for the lesson that you do not have to do everything like everyone else.

Do you really think that the only way to achieve the community that they have built where everyone has a role and there is no need for money is by fear?

If true, that makes me sad. I like to think the human potential with Jesus as the heart and spirit is more than that. I like to think that love could achieve things far more than fear ever could.

No, I don't think that's the only way. What I mean is that's the only way to keep people there in Gloriavale, to stop them from leaving, to not let there be any sorts of disagreements. Because make no mistake, these people are not allowed to have any form of disagreements with the elders, even in their minds.

 

[steve]

Thank you for your explanation.
I disagree with your understanding and interpretation, but I don’t have the energy to debate you.

 

[PeteR]

There is another form of commune that is less apparent to us today because it's been wiped out: clans. The Celtic people held all things in common at the clan level under a patriarch; but as a matter of course those goods were divided among the people and managed by them. It worked very well for them for hundreds if not thousands of years. But I know little of the details.

Think: commune at the extended family level. It's a more localized and personalized form.

Behold the restoration of kol Israel.

Starts with patriarchal families that grow into or become clans.... read prophecy. The tribes are reconstituted and restored, they return from the ends of the earth, keeping Torah and following Messiah. Ezekiel 37! All of it.

 

[Cap]

Behold the restoration of kol Israel.

Starts with patriarchal families that grow into or become clans.... read prophecy. The tribes are reconstituted and restored, they return from the ends of the earth, keeping Torah and following Messiah. Ezekiel 37! All of it.

Or,

Behold the restoration of kol Israel.

Starts with patriarchal families that grow into or become clans.... read prophecy. The tribes are reconstituted and restored, they return from the ends of the earth and God has placed in the hearts of those who follow Him to do the will of the Spirit of God that leads them which means truly understanding the spirit of the Law in any given sense.

(May God bring together the uncommon thing)

 

[PeteR]

@Cap .... in shameless self-promotion, if I could recommend a primer that pulls the prophecies together: https://www.amazon.com/Ten-Parts-King-Prophesied-Reconciliation/dp/1729385672

 

[Cap]

@Cap .... in shameless self-promotion, if I could recommend a primer that pulls the prophecies together: https://www.amazon.com/Ten-Parts-King-Prophesied-Reconciliation/dp/1729385672

Are you the author of this book?

I don't doubt the prophecies discussed, and the designation of the two paths for God's two wives, more easily defined by Paul as Sarah and Hagar. One is heavenly and one is earthly. By the dogmatic assertion that Sarah is going to be forced into the Hagar's physical Torah requirements is not something I agree with. Not saying it's wrong for the wife Hagar, but I don't think it can be reasonable proselytized that wife Sarah is going to be similarly dealt with, accept maybe for the spiritual side of things.

I know we have differences of opinions on this matter and I try hard not to let my belief bleed over into a constant he said she said disagreement when it comes to Torah, but if I may be a little blunt here, your constant trying to force your Torah belief anytime you get always puts those who don't believe it on defence. I know you believe it and I respect that, but I'm also not going to stand by and let that be the only voice on the subject when it is brought up. This my friend is a place we need to get to an understanding about how to treat each other's beliefs if we are ever going to reach anything about having things in common. I accept you belief, do you accept mine?

 

[PeteR]

I am the author, and I do love you @Cap but your understanding of Sarah and Hagar re Torah is incompatible with Scripture. That is why I stand against it.

Ezekiel 37 clearly tells us where 'My servant David' will be and what His expectations will be. Either, you'll be where He is doing what He says, or you won't... selah.

I seriously recommend wrestling with that book.

 

[Cap]

I am the author, and I do love you @Cap but your understanding of Sarah and Hagar re Torah is incompatible with Scripture. That is why I stand against it.

Ezekiel 37 clearly tells us where 'My servant David' will be and what His expectations will be. Either, you'll be where He is doing what He says, or you won't... selah.

I seriously recommend wrestling with that book.

I love you as well @PeteR, but your answer to the question I asked is obvious.

I accept you belief, do you accept mine?

My understanding of scripture is wrong according to you, but my understanding comes from Paul as well as the rest of scripture according to what I see, and I am not alone.

How can you write this and then say I'm wrong?

https://natsab.com/2018/03/02/does-god-have-two-brides/

Family peace and wholeness comes when we recognize the legitimacy of the other bride and choose, CHOOSE, to walk at peace and harmony, rejoicing in what makes the Husband joyful about the other!! Imagine how selfless and revolutionary that Leah can JOY in the relationship of Jacob with Rachel and likewise, Rachel can be excited concerning the relationship that Jacob has with Leah. That is the point at which true unity comes to the family and envy and jealousy are put away. That is the time of their healing!!


Again I ask the question,

I accept you belief, do you accept mine?

 

[PeteR]

Cap, I accept you are a brother in Messiah, I reject your idea that Torah observance is a subordinate or second class (earthly) form of righteousness because that directly violates many passages that come from God and Yeshua.

Paul did not and cannot override or contradict clear statements from Yeshua and God Himself. Period.