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I understand. My statements will be general from now on.
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I understand. My statements will be general from now on.
Thank you.
Based on humanistic attempts? You can't know that. What guarantee the next will do the same? You could use that arguments against church elders too. You're setting up impossible standards.
Sorry Cap but all this 'can't be done today' business is a cop out. Just like how I hear Christians saying obedience to the scriptures is 'too hard' in the modern day.
That is ridiculous. You're impinging the faith of people and groups you know nothing of.
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Show me one group that is directly lead be Christ. Not thier interpretation or desire but actually being lead by Christ or the overcomes who are the sons of God. And I do believe that any man that followers another man without that requirement does have weak faith. I didn't say no faith, we all have weak faith and learn and pray for stronger faith. Some have less faith than others, those are the ones that need to be lead. It is thier responsibility to choose who they are going to follow.
One of the best realities that I have come to learn and know and love, (post Corporation Christianity) is that I literally do not follow any man. I do assemble with other men who do not follow any man, and we have a great time of fellowship. Several times lately, one has brought up a topic or issue that is totally contrary to something we’d been brought up with. Initially, there is the normal pushback, but within a very short time of study (usually) we’re all on relatively the same page and have grown in our understanding of scripture exponentially. IMO this is how its supposed to work. There is no imperative that any of us change our stance and we are all completely welcome to hold dissenting opinions because . . . . . . We don’t follow anyone. Our families follow each husband and he follows Christ. All of us husbands are simply moving in the same direction with similar goals. Our “sheep” follow us as we follow Christ.
We have the idea that everything has a common ownership because it belongs to God. But we are individually accountable for how we use and distribute the property he’s entrusted us with.
For example, this year our old meat grinder was on its last legs. We’d had it for about 15 years and processed at least 50+ animals with it. So we retired it and drastically upgraded it. It is such a blessing to have great equipment. One of the guys in our group has paid somebody to process his deer for years and decided to do it himself this year. I offered him the use of our new grinder. A week or so later, I happened to mention that I was gonna buy a climbing stand for an area of Oklahoma that we like to hunt. He gave me a stand that he’d had sitting in the shed for a couple of years because he doesnt use it anymore. If he needed it back, or someone else needed it and it was not being used, I’m cool with that. Why? Cause it isn’t mine anyway. I just have to be able to account for it that I have maintained it and that it wasn’t given outside His Trust, and that my responsibilities have been taken care of.
Individual stewardship of His assets.
We have the idea that everything has a common ownership because it belongs to God. But we are individually accountable for how we use and distribute the property he’s entrusted us with.
For example, this year our old meat grinder was on its last legs. We’d had it for about 15 years and processed at least 50+ animals with it. So we retired it and drastically upgraded it. It is such a blessing to have great equipment. One of the guys in our group has paid somebody to process his deer for years and decided to do it himself this year. I offered him the use of our new grinder. A week or so later, I happened to mention that I was gonna buy a climbing stand for an area of Oklahoma that we like to hunt. He gave me a stand that he’d had sitting in the shed for a couple of years because he doesnt use it anymore. If he needed it back, or someone else needed it and it was not being used, I’m cool with that. Why? Cause it isn’t mine anyway. I just have to be able to account for it that I have maintained it and that it wasn’t given outside His Trust, and that my responsibilities have been taken care of.
Individual stewardship of His assets.
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BF comes to mind. I don't think anyone here follows any other man. And sometimes it becomes overly obvious. Allowing for order is another thing.
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I just finished watching a documentary about Woodstock and they mentioned a group called the Hog Farm. Wikipedia says they are the longest running commune in the US. Doesn't appear christian based.
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What gave you that hint?
Longest running hippy commune. There are Hutterite groups far older.
And how would you know they are?
This sounds like you'd disqualify any group with elders as 'led by men'. Yet they are very Biblical. Even in Acts they had the Apostles and Deacons.
My problem with this answer is that it feels like a cop out. Like, I have a suspicion that while this could work to fulfill the commands it mostly doesn't lead to radical enough action as it doesn't really require much. I've heard way too many Christians take that stance and then when we get into details I get the, "Well I couldn't do that". In reality they live no different than the world.
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I only stated what Wikipedia stated.
I was under the impression we were talking about modern day communes. First century communes would be a different story. And yes, elders in today's world may be wise men and worth respect, and I will learn from them, but I'm not going to let them take control of my life, or my families life.
Which raises a question, how do you feel about the elders here?
I thought we were talking about how to fulfill the scriptures teachings on material wealth, namely w.r.t. holding all things in common. The first century church is our example in the faith and cannot be disregarded. And Hutterites exist today and have been living that lifestyle for hundreds of years; that's why I bring them up to counter your repeated 'impossible' assertion. It is possible, but when I give an examples you move the goal posts and claim their form isn't good enough for you.
But as you have well demonstrated, you're problem isn't just with their form, but with the form the scriptures themselves teach. The Bible in multiple places says to submit to and obey your elders. So I should. To not do so, and expect my wife to submit to me, would be hypocrisy.
Last I heard no one here claimed the scriptural status of elder and to do so would strain credulity.
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I don't think there is teaching on material wealth in this context, it's just what happened when the disciples held all things (spiritual) in common.
The elder subject was a side comment not really relevant.
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Probably need to open a different thread for this, but @Pacman and I have really been retooling our thoughts on this lately.
If Scripture is based on patriarchy and the elders were the wisest patriarchs who sat in the gates, what happens when a splinter group get put out of families or synagogues for following Yeshua? Suddenly they have no patriarchal access or covering. Suppose, Paul was offering a 'temporary' instruction to the new fellowships on what to do until established patriarchs grew up in the community to fill the elder role? Maybe he never intended it to become an 'office' that people rotated through. It was a normal duty in the families and clans of Israel, but he needed a placeholder that the best could be put in and his expectation was that once the fellowships matured and the communities came along, the patriarchs would rise and resume their rightful place, ala 1 Cor. 11:3!!
Thoughts?
Yes best to make a new thread.
Interesting and plausible. I'd assumed NT elders were a continuation of the OT practice. I'm not sure what your theory brings new other than an explanation for why it suddenly became an issue. But neither do I think Paul's instructions outline an office that people rotate through. That doesn't answer how elders were selected before or were to be selected after. Off hand I can't recall anything that would warrant making Paul's commands temporary; elders aren't temporary.
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I don't think Paul was offering a temporary solution but a permanent one and that was every individual, family or nation's head would be Christ, per 1 Cor 11:3.
I guess my point is that when Paul said 'appoint elders' or we see elsewhere, elders bring chosen by lot, the purpose was not creating a new position, but filling an existing one critical to leading a community that held things in common.
I like @FollowingHim 's thoughts that individuals retained stewardship, but used everything for the good of the family (community). Elders were the patriarchs that led the newly assembled family (community).
I like @FollowingHim 's thoughts that individuals retained stewardship, but used everything for the good of the family (community). Elders were the patriarchs that led the newly assembled family (community).