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Gap theory

FollowingHim said:
I think if Satan had planted an evil tree in the garden, Adam's first job would have been to cut it down not guard it along with all the others.

I see this as God not tempting Adam and Eve, but simply deliberately giving them the ability to disobey Him. He gave them one rule - only one rule - to see if they would obey. And that rule was "don't eat from this tree".

The tree itself was not necessarily evil.

I understand that "Good and Evil" is an idiom that means "everything" - if you include both extreme opposites you include everything (just as in Eastern philosophy, yin + yang = the whole). This makes the tree "The tree of the knowledge of everything", and that Eve was tempted because she would be like God and understand "everything". I don't see it as meaning tree itself was evil, any more than the tree was good - it itself was just a neutral object. Eating from it was a sin only because God had said not to do so.
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Yeah but, and it's a big but, if EVIL is merely the absence of God what the Knowledge of Good and Evil was would have been the realization that one had the option to not obey God. That's all this thing was, a mechanism to allow them to choose to obey Him. The evil was that they chose not to. Everyone has gotten vey meta about the nature of evil and wondering how God could create it or allow it to happen, we have to have Satan plant the tree because God couldn't allow something EVIL. Except that if God created Satan to plant the tree it's the same things as God doing it. The tree was simply a question; "Will you obey Me?" We're getting of in to dizzying heights of fancy simply because we haven't defined the terms we're discussing or challenged base assumptions. Reel it back in men. We don't need to invent whole epoch of history to explain away a "flaw" in God's Word. He told us wanted He wanted us to know.
 
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ZecAustin said:
Yeah but, and it's a big but, if EVIL is merely the absence of God what the Knowledge of Good and Evil was would have been the realization that one could not obey God. That's all this thing was, a mechanism to allow them to choose to obey Him. The evil was that they chose not to. Everyone has gotten vey meta about the nature of evil and wondering how God could create it or allow it to happen, we have to have Satan plant the tree because God couldn't allow something EVIL. Except that if God created Satan to plant the tree it's the same things as God doing it. The tree was simply a question; "Will you obey Me?" We're getting of in to dizzying heights of fancy simply because we haven't defined the terms we're discussing or challenged base assumptions. Reel it back in men. We don't need to invent whole epoch of history to explain away a "flaw" in God's Word. He told us wanted He wanted us to know.
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Proverbs 25:2 It is the glory of God to conceal a matter; to search out a matter is the glory of kings. ;)
 
Now 2nd Enoch speaks of all the visible being created from the invisible on, or just before, the first day. It also tells of the angles being created on the second day and tells of an angelic fall at that time...

3 And one from out the order of angels, having turned away with the order that was under him, conceived an impossible thought, to place his throne higher than the clouds above the earth, that he might become equal in rank to my power.

4 And I threw him out from the height with his angels, and he was flying in the air continuously above the bottomless.
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and

1 Adam has life on earth, and I created a garden in Eden in the east, that he should observe the testament and keep the command.

2 I made the heavens open to him, that he should see the angels singing the song of victory, and the gloomless light.

3 And he was continuously in paradise, and the devil understood that I wanted to create another world, because Adam was lord on earth, to rule and control it.

4 The devil is the evil spirit of the lower places, as a fugitive he made Sotona from the heavens as his name was Satanail (Satan), thus he became different from the angels, (but his nature) did not change (his) intelligence as far as (his) understanding of righteous and sinful (things).

5 And he understood his condemnation and the sin which he had sinned before, therefore he conceived thought against Adam, in such form he entered and seduced Eva (Eve), but did not touch Adam.
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and

1The men took me on to the fifth heaven and placed me, and there I saw many and countless soldiers, called Grigori, of human appearance, and their size was greater than that of great giants and their faces withered, and the silence of their mouths perpetual, and their was no service on the fifth heaven, and I said to the men who were with me:

2Wherefore are these very withered and their faces melancholy, and their mouths silent, and wherefore is there no service on this heaven?

3And they said to me: These are the Grigori, who with their prince Satanail rejected the Lord of light, and after them are those who are held in great darkness on the second heaven, and three of them went down on to earth from the Lord’s throne, to the place Ermon, and broke through their vows on the shoulder of the hill Ermon and saw the daughters of men how good they are, and took to themselves wives, and befouled the earth with their deeds, who in all times of their age made lawlessness and mixing, and giants are born and marvellous big men and great enmity.

4And therefore God judged them with great judgment, and they weep for their brethren and they will be punished on the Lord’s great day.

5And I said to the Grigori: I saw your brethren and their works, and their great torments, and I prayed for them, but the Lord has condemned them to be under earth till the existing heaven and earth shall end for ever.
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ZecAustin said:
It takes two minutes of reading to see that 2 Enoch was left out of the canon for a reason.
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By all means, please do provide quotes from canonical works that tell us when the angles were created.
 
ZecAustin said:
Now this is a much more interesting question and one I'm willing to speculate wildly about. I am convinced that there were whole civilizations outside of the Garden. God told them to be fruitful and multiply IN the garden. There's no way their first two kids don't come around until after the Fall. I believe that their children would leave of be expelled from the Garden themselves by either just walking out or eating the fruit of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil. This is why there were people for Cain to be afraid of after he killed Abel.

The first most logical objection to this is why, if someone else ate the apple first, was every one not kicked out of the Garden at the first transgression. The answer comes to us in the New Testament (find the reference yourself) where we're told that through one man sin entered the world. Adam was the only one whose sin could taint everyone and everything else. His children's earlier sin (of eating from the tree) was visited on them and their children but would not affect their siblings or their parents. It was only Adam's sin that affected everyone.

This means that thousands, if not many thousands, of years could have and most likely did pass between Creation and the Fall; certainly enough to let civilizations and cities arise. I do not however allow that it was millions of years.
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Now it's @ZecAustin's turn to introduce a whole raft of new speculation on a massive theoretical history that isn't even hinted at anywhere in scripture. Again, why do we need to complicate things? What scripture actually tells us is good enough to explain everything.

Who would want to kill Cain, but someone who wanted to avenge Abel - ie a member of his own immediate family? By the time Cain and Abel were old enough to till the soil, farm sheep, offer sacrifices, commit murder - how many younger siblings did they already have? Plenty enough for Cain to be afraid of, either today or when they grew up, no need to speculate on other civilisations simply in order to have Cain be afraid. And anyway, the fact that he was afraid doesn't even mean there was anything to be afraid of - my kids have been afraid of all sorts of imaginary things.

I'd keep this simple and stick to what scripture clearly says.
 
rockfox said:
By all means, please do provide quotes from canonical works that tell us when the angles were created.
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The first mention I can find of an angle is 2 Chr 26:8
"Moreover, Uzziah built towers in Jerusalem at the Corner Gate and at the Valley Gate and at the Angle, and fortified them."
But it does depend on the translation. The KJV doesn't mention an angle until Isaiah 19:8.
:)
 
Jim an Apostle said:
This cannot mean that time will cease to exist but rather that there will be no more delay in the fulfilment of the prophecy.
there is still the counting of 3 1/2 years after this and the counting of 1000 years after that.
what is eternity? not the absence of time but rather time without end.
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The last part of this I probably agree with. “Not the absence of time but rather time without end.”

The count of the 3 1/2 years after is based on Darby’s model which is terribly flawed here. The sixth and seventh Trumpet judgement and bowl judgement are dependent upon each other unlike the previous judgements.

The sixth trumpet judgement cannot be completed until the sixth bowl judgement occurs.

Rev 16:12,13
The river has to be dried up so that the 200M man army of the kings of the east can travel down its length to get to Jerusalem for Armageddon

It is definitely debatable whether the river has to be dried up to loose the 4 angels that are bound in Euphrates. What’s not debatable is that it has to be dried up for them to get to Jerusalem. Armageddon is just where Christ chooses to intercept them en route to Jerusalem from Babylon

The idea that time will be no more is a reference to the 8th day. 1000 years as 1 day and 1 day as 1000 years. The millennial reign is regarded as the 7th day. A Sabbatical millennia. Once that is over, it begins the 8th day when time is no more. The bride is revealed on the 8th day of the Jewish Marriage week as the Bride of Christ is revealed in Rev. 21:9 after the 7th day (millennial reign) is completed. She is revealed on a day that never ends Rev 21:25. Time is simply not counted in infinity. I find it insanely interesting that the infinity symbol is the number 8 . . . . . . . . resting.
 
FollowingHim said:
The first mention I can find of an angle is 2 Chr 26:8
"Moreover, Uzziah built towers in Jerusalem at the Corner Gate and at the Valley Gate and at the Angle, and fortified them."
But it does depend on the translation. The KJV doesn't mention an angle until Isaiah 19:8.
:)
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Well it couldn't have been in Gen 1 because circles have no angles.
 
Just don’t be ringing them bells, because everytime a bell rings an angle gets it’s wings.
We gonna have flying hypotenuses all over the place.
 
rockfox said:
Rev 12 makes it pretty clear we're dealing with the same Satan from the beginning to the end of the bible. I don't buy this metaphorical devil stuff. There is way more to it than just RCC mythmaking.
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I'm definitely not catholic. As far as myth making goes. Wow! I have been reading some stuff on this thread that I would definitely put into that category. I would have stayed out of it, but I can see how much you appreciate metaphors so thought I'd put more out here for consideration.

Adam's job of guarding Eden involved protecting the trees, including the tree of life that is symbolic for God's law. Had he been obedient he would have been a good steward of what God gave him and would have raised his children and taught them by example to be obedient to God's word. But he did not. He was protecting/guarding God's law by keeping the garden/keeping the law, but he failed/fell and lost his position. The lusts of the flesh are there in Eve BEFORE she ate the "fruit" and apparently they were present in Adam too, or he would not have participated. By disobedience they learned what evil is....being outside the will of God. They then had that to contrast with the GOOD that they knew before.
The serpent was just used as descriptive of that nature in man that talks himself into doing what he knows he shouldn't. It is subtile!!!

Yes, God cursed the serpent (lusts of the flesh/human nature)

I believe satan has always been man. Man in his lusts and desires is satan. Man was made from dust and his uncontrolled lusts eat and consume him.

James 1:13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man: 14But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. 15Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.

Phil, 3:18 (For many walk, of whom I have told you often, and now tell you even weeping, that they are the enemies of the cross of Christ: 19Whose end is destruction, whose God is their belly, and whose glory is in their shame, who mind earthly things.)

I see no satan here outside of man's lusts. At least we agree that it is the same satan from the beginning to the end of the Bible. :D Difference is I didn't have to build a castle in the sky and move the devil and all his angels into it. :rolleyes:

But seriously, reading things I disagree with will often cause me to dig into the scripture in ways I may not have otherwise. So hearing all sorts of angles is probably good for all of us. :)
 
Oh boy, normally YEC is my favorite cup of tea, but I'm tired. I will just leave some good links below for now.

Two good books:

https://www.amazon.com/Faith-Form-T...form+and+time&qid=1565761127&s=gateway&sr=8-1

https://www.amazon.com/Understanding-Pattern-Life-Origins-Organization/dp/0805427147

Planetary Magnetic Fields:
https://creationresearch.org/creation-planetary-magnetic-fields/

Starlight and time

Baraminology:

Good YEC resource:
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCzjPwFPxtpZTJ1dq7cAkb3g
 
AmericanIsraelite said:
I'm definitely not catholic. As far as myth making goes. Wow! I have been reading some stuff on this thread that I would definitely put into that category. I would have stayed out of it, but I can see how much you appreciate metaphors so thought I'd put more out here for consideration.

Adam's job of guarding Eden involved protecting the trees, including the tree of life that is symbolic for God's law. Had he been obedient he would have been a good steward of what God gave him and would have raised his children and taught them by example to be obedient to God's word. But he did not. He was protecting/guarding God's law by keeping the garden/keeping the law, but he failed/fell and lost his position. The lusts of the flesh are there in Eve BEFORE she ate the "fruit" and apparently they were present in Adam too, or he would not have participated. By disobedience they learned what evil is....being outside the will of God. They then had that to contrast with the GOOD that they knew before.
The serpent was just used as descriptive of that nature in man that talks himself into doing what he knows he shouldn't. It is subtile!!!

Yes, God cursed the serpent (lusts of the flesh/human nature)

I believe satan has always been man. Man in his lusts and desires is satan. Man was made from dust and his uncontrolled lusts eat and consume him.

James 1:13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man: 14But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. 15Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.

Phil, 3:18 (For many walk, of whom I have told you often, and now tell you even weeping, that they are the enemies of the cross of Christ: 19Whose end is destruction, whose God is their belly, and whose glory is in their shame, who mind earthly things.)

I see no satan here outside of man's lusts. At least we agree that it is the same satan from the beginning to the end of the Bible. :D Difference is I didn't have to build a castle in the sky and move the devil and all his angels into it. :rolleyes:

But seriously, reading things I disagree with will often cause me to dig into the scripture in ways I may not have otherwise. So hearing all sorts of angles is probably good for all of us. :)
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I take a literalist approach to the scriptures. There may be metaphorical double meanings, but I don't believe you can hand wave away the literal events by showing metephorical meanings; there is no end to that. I can't read Matthew 4 or Rev 12 without coming away with a literal person of Satan as an independent spiritual entity. Job is a good example that refutes the metaphorical Satan. Job's personal lusts didn't go up to God and have a conversation with Him, they did't form up and cause all his children to be killed. This is echo'd in Luke 22:31. This is also consistent with the 1st century view, and before, which we see in 1st and 2nd Enoch. So too does Paul (2 Corinthians 2:11) take that perspective on Satan.
 
@rockfox I could take time and explain how I understand those passages, but I suspect it would be pointless. Most here see a supernatural satan all through scripture.

I have two questions, that are really one.
Who was the tempter, and who did James say the temper was?
 
FollowingHim said:
Now it's @ZecAustin's turn to introduce a whole raft of new speculation on a massive theoretical history that isn't even hinted at anywhere in scripture. Again, why do we need to complicate things? What scripture actually tells us is good enough to explain everything.

Who would want to kill Cain, but someone who wanted to avenge Abel - ie a member of his own immediate family? By the time Cain and Abel were old enough to till the soil, farm sheep, offer sacrifices, commit murder - how many younger siblings did they already have? Plenty enough for Cain to be afraid of, either today or when they grew up, no need to speculate on other civilisations simply in order to have Cain be afraid. And anyway, the fact that he was afraid doesn't even mean there was anything to be afraid of - my kids have been afraid of all sorts of imaginary things.

I'd keep this simple and stick to what scripture clearly says.
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Fair enough. I think there’s a difference however.
 
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