Gap theory

[Soldier's Psalm]

I just found gold! Light does not experience time. God is the father of lights and in him there is no shadow. i don't think it's a stretch to say Darkness was created when Satan fell, causing time.

Another fun thought is that it seems like light is the joining of two realms. Our physical one because light exists here and another because light does not experience time. Light exists here and outside of time at the same time.

https://www.universetoday.com/111603/does-light-experience-time/

 

[FollowingHim]

All very interesting points regarding lucifer. A couple of thoughts on my phone:

If lucifer ruled this world, and was then punished resulting in the destruction of this world, why was he allowed into the Garden in the first place? Would he not have been imprisoned, or if not imprisoned at least kept out of the one place God was most concerned about?

The fact he was there at all suggests to me that he had not yet fallen. He could go into the garden and talk to Eve with nobody being suspicious, including her, because he was one of the most trusted beings in the universe.

We know many angels "fell" later, Genesis 6, nephilim etc. The fall of the angels could have been a gradual event, with angels choosing over time to join the rebellion.

 

[Soldier's Psalm]

All very interesting points regarding lucifer. A couple of thoughts on my phone:

If lucifer ruled this world, and was then punished resulting in the destruction of this world, why was he allowed into the Garden in the first place? Would he not have been imprisoned, or if not imprisoned at least kept out of the one place God was most concerned about?

The fact he was there at all suggests to me that he had not yet fallen. He could go into the garden and talk to Eve with nobody being suspicious, including her, because he was one of the most trusted beings in the universe.

We know many angels "fell" later, Genesis 6, nephilim etc. The fall of the angels could have been a gradual event, with angels choosing over time to join the rebellion.

Genesis 2:15, KJV: "And the LORD God took the man, and put him into the garden of Eden to dress it and to keep it."

The word translate to keep is shaw-mar' and it means ra primitive root; properly, to hedge about (as with thorns), i.e. guard; generally, to protect, attend to, etc

Adam was to guard the garden from Satan. Literally he was to hedge about with a wall. I believe that is the same word used in Job when Satan says he can't touch Job because of his hedge.

 

[Paulsen]

Genesis 2:15, KJV: "And the LORD God took the man, and put him into the garden of Eden to dress it and to keep it."

The word translate to keep is shaw-mar' and it means ra primitive root; properly, to hedge about (as with thorns), i.e. guard; generally, to protect, attend to, etc

Adam was to guard the garden from Satan. Literally he was to hedge about with a wall. I believe that is the same word used in Job when Satan says he can't touch Job because of his hedge.

Wow that's new to me. I would love to hear how it tests to some more of the group who are schooled in the Hebrew.

 

[Asforme&myhouse]

Genesis 2:15, KJV: "And the LORD God took the man, and put him into the garden of Eden to dress it and to keep it."

The word translate to keep is shaw-mar' and it means ra primitive root; properly, to hedge about (as with thorns), i.e. guard; generally, to protect, attend to, etc

Adam was to guard the garden from Satan. Literally he was to hedge about with a wall. I believe that is the same word used in Job when Satan says he can't touch Job because of his hedge.

I think you’re jumping the shark here, bro. There’s a reason that Bible translators, the world over, do not translate it the way you’re saying. You can’t just go and cherry pick a couple of the possible meanings of a word and shove it into the text. The context is equally important in determining which possible meaning is the correct translation.

 

[Soldier's Psalm]

I think you’re jumping the shark here, bro. There’s a reason that Bible translators, the world over, do not translate it the way you’re saying. You can’t just go and cherry pick a couple of the possible meanings of a word and shove it into the text. The context is equally important in determining which possible meaning is the correct translation.

I'm not. I copied that right out of the strongs concordance. For giggles I looked up to keep in the 1611 kjv dictionary to see why they used the word keep and when used in this context in 1611 it looks like,it means the,same thing. It seems to me everyone just uses the idea for dressing the garden for both words not realizing there are two completely different words with two completely different meanings behind them.

 

[Jim an Apostle]

All very interesting points regarding lucifer. A couple of thoughts on my phone:

If lucifer ruled this world, and was then punished resulting in the destruction of this world, why was he allowed into the Garden in the first place? Would he not have been imprisoned, or if not imprisoned at least kept out of the one place God was most concerned about?

The fact he was there at all suggests to me that he had not yet fallen. He could go into the garden and talk to Eve with nobody being suspicious, including her, because he was one of the most trusted beings in the universe.

We know many angels "fell" later, Genesis 6, nephilim etc. The fall of the angels could have been a gradual event, with angels choosing over time to join the rebellion.

Good questions!
I believe the answer is since free-will was the main issue ( whether free-wills would willing follow God or not.

AND there was no Devil to tempt the Devil, His own pride and devices led him into rebellion

If God had shut up and judged Him, and those who followed him, at that time, and then started over, what would keep another freewill from later entering into rebellion?

God decided to allow Satan and his cohorts to roam free. first because they were operating under a different code than Adam was created under. For us it was appointed once to die and after that the Judgment. Angels could not die and the flesh and blood that followed him (who are now demons) were not under that stipulation. This gave God a way to fast track the free-wills of Adams race! To see if Adam would remain faithful or not.
After sin has 'run its course' God and his Son will punish all rebels and as Isa 66: 22-24 teaches The punishment of hell will then be a warning to any potential future rebels that it is not worth it.
It was also an act of mercy to wait till the Son would come and make salvation possible before making Judgment final.
Don't get me wrong since the cross Satan is already judged, God is now using him to let sin run its full course. IN the future no one will be able to say, "If we had only tried it our way sin would work."The record will be clear sin does not and cannot work!" God will be glorified. A tried and tested group of faithful free-wills will then seed the New Heaven and the New Earth and the universe will be filled with the righteous.

 

[Jim an Apostle]

We know many angels "fell" later, Genesis 6, nephilim etc. The fall of the angels could have been a gradual event, with angels choosing over time to join the rebellion.

Although possible . . . it is also possible that these 'angels' were already following Satan and were especially punished for this special sin that incurred an immediate judgment.

There is a realm of rebellion that God is now tolerating to finish the testing of our free-will. If certain lines are crossed confinement can begin earlier.

 

[Soldier's Psalm]

I think you’re jumping the shark here, bro. There’s a reason that Bible translators, the world over, do not translate it the way you’re saying. You can’t just go and cherry pick a couple of the possible meanings of a word and shove it into the text. The context is equally important in determining which possible meaning is the correct translation.

http://www.godrules.net/library/strongs2a/heb8104.htm

1611 kjv translated it right for there time. Now we don't translate it different even though the understanding of the word "keep" doesn't Cary the same meaning is that it would overturn to many sacred cows so it's best left alone.

 

[Asforme&myhouse]

Seems like the vast majority of usage it means to essentially “keep”

 

[Soldier's Psalm]

KJV Dictionary Definition: keep
keep
KEEP, v.t. pret. and pp. kept. L. habeo, and capio.

1. To hold; to retain in one's power or possession; not to lose or part with

2. To have in custody for security or preservation.

3. To preserve; to retain.

4. To preserve from falling or from danger; to protect; to guard or sustain.

5. To hold or restrain from departure; to detain.

 

[Soldier's Psalm]

So either man was too guard the garden or he was to retain his ownership of it, or restrain it from departing from him. You can choose.

In either case it sounds like there was something trying to take it. Especially when the idea behind the Hebrew is too hedge round about with thorns to protect your loss of it.

 

[Asforme&myhouse]

So either man was too guard the garden or he was to retain his ownership of it, or restrain it from departing from him. You can choose.

In either case it sounds like there was something trying to take it. Especially when the idea behind the Hebrew is too hedge round about with thorns to protect your loss of it.

So far you have made a lot of conjectures using vague passages and strung them together to create a fantastical story line, but honestly the arguments are about as compelling as a bowl of cornflakes. No offense. I’m too busy and tired to lay out the responses to your statements... maybe I’m just being lazy, who knows. Maybe I’ll check later and see if it’s gotten soggy.

 

[Verifyveritas76]

Proverbs 8:22 Subject is Wisdom.
The LORD possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old.
I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was.
When there were no depths, I was brought forth; when there were no fountains abounding with water.
Before the mountains were settled, before the hills was I brought forth:
While as yet he had not made the earth, nor the fields, nor the highest part of the dust of the world.
When he prepared the heavens, I was there: when he set a compass upon the face of the depth:
When he established the clouds above: when he strengthened the fountains of the deep:
When he gave to the sea his decree, that the waters should not pass his commandment: when he appointed the foundations of the earth:
Then I was by him, as one brought up with him: and I was daily his delight, rejoicing always before him;
Rejoicing in the habitable part of his earth; and my delights were with the sons of men.

 

[frederick]

God decided to allow Satan and his cohorts to roam free. first because they were operating under a different code than Adam was created under.

Thank you for this insight. What are the scripture references please?

 

[The Revolting Man]

I think it is what the Hebrew says.
Job 38:4-7 New International Version (NIV)
4 “Where were you when I laid the earth’s foundation?I)" data-cr="#cen-NIV-13801I" style="box-sizing: border-box; font-size: 0.625em; line-height: 22px; position: relative; vertical-align: top; top: 0px;"> shouted for joy?
Job 38:4 “Where were you when I laid the foundations of the earth? Tell me, if you know so much.
5 Who determined its dimensions and stretched out the surveying line?
6 What supports its foundations, and who laid its cornerstone
7 as the morning stars sang together and all the angels shouted for joy?
8 “Who kept the sea inside its boundaries as it burst from the womb?

We have the morning stars singing at the creation of earth on day 1. Now I know that stars are a picture of angels but according to scholars with the writer mentioning angels later in the verse this actually refers to stars. And stars can sing. Pretty cool youtube videos on it.

The real issue I see with young earth is the placement of the fall of Satan which I have seen some very colorful theories about from young earth guys. I tried to watch a video of a young earth guy but I don't think it was a good one because he butchered the Hebrew part and he was having to do some bending to get some pieces to work. There are probably better vids out there so I will try and find another when I have the time.

I have noticed a trend of Young earth guys wanting to skate away from verses outside of Genesis because it starts getting tricky to make things work.
You have Satan portrayed as the prince of Tyre which has to now become an allegory of some one else and then you have Lucifer wearing what looks like a high priest garment walking in the stones of creation becoming a poetic story of a human as well. It seems most references to satan at the time of creation become poetic stories of other people. Maybe its a fault but I tend to take the Bible much more literal and I have not seen a literal use of those verses yet when I could even find them being addressed.

Also with the fall of Satan had to be death/judgement. This is my thought that I am trying to form out but I think it works. When man fell we had authority of all the earth. So with sin/rebellion comes death. "The wages of sin is death." The thing I want to tie together here is that we brought death to everything we had authority over. The beast of the field and the birds of the air did not rebel against God but our authority over them caused them to suffer our judgement as well. Why didn't the world fall when Eve ate the Fruit? Authority. When we apply this to Satan I have to ask what was judged and what died when he fell? After all there has to be a price. Did Satan have authority over anything? Well in Hebrew thought he did hence the reason he said he would exalt his throne in Isaiah. He had a throne and that means he had authority. My thought is that he had authority over this world since he was the anointed Cherub here and is referred to many times as prince which means ruler. So, when he fail the world was destroyed which is the gap theory thought. And with that I enter my thoughts on time that sin brought death which brought time. There was no time till Satan fell and there will be no time after the new Heaven and new Earth. Sin created time. Satan fell and time starts ticking with day one of the creation story in Genesis. I am going to take this thought a step further and say that Where God is there is no time because there is no sin. I believe this is why when God speaks it is nearly every time G in the present tense. God is the same yesterday today and tomorrow because he exists outside of this small little anomaly in eternity called time. And this small anomaly was caused by sin.... The time part is still a work in progress but I think I am on to something.

So you’re saying that in a discussion of the Creation we shouldn’t get too wrapped up in the Bible’s account of the Creation but instead refer to an aside in the most allegorical and misunderstood book in the whole Bible?

 

[The Revolting Man]

So I should make it clear, I don't believe in macro evolution and all that jazz, and I do believe in the miracles and in the existence of a creator God. Most of your arguments seem to be just trying to associate this with various people you dislike. Hitler believed in gravity, does that mean the theory of gravity is bad too?

This theory doesn't seem far fetched; but this does:

I can’t find where Hitler came in to the conversation. I’m sure he was an aside. But the phrase “time shall be no more” is in hymns. It might actually be scripture, I need to check. If that’s far fetched to you then secret worlds destroyed in Luciferian floods should bizarro world stuff. Time ending is an accepted part of the faith.

 

[The Revolting Man]

So either man was too guard the garden or he was to retain his ownership of it, or restrain it from departing from him. You can choose.

In either case it sounds like there was something trying to take it. Especially when the idea behind the Hebrew is too hedge round about with thorns to protect your loss of it.

These are all things you could and would still do with a garden whether or not there as a secret world ruled by Satan that pre-existed the Garden. All you are showing is that God put Adam in charge of Eden. That’s good. We all agree with you. What you have not done is shown us something that says “Satan ruled the world before what we call Creation but is really only a creation and God wipes it all out in a flood and recreated us but on the same plant in the same universe.” That’s the passage you need to find. We know Adam had charge of the Garden.

 

[Verifyveritas76]

But the phrase “time shall be no more” is in hymns. It might actually be scripture, I need to check

Rev 10:5-7
And the angel which I saw stand upon the sea and upon the earth lifted up his hand toheaven,
And sware by him that liveth forever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are,†and the earth, and the things that therein are,† and the sea, and the things which are therein,† that there should be time no longer:
But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound,† the mystery o f God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

 

[Jim an Apostle]

Rev 10:5-7
And the angel which I saw stand upon the sea and upon the earth lifted up his hand toheaven,
And sware by him that liveth forever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are,†and the earth, and the things that therein are,† and the sea, and the things which are therein,† that there should be time no longer:
But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound,† the mystery o f God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

This cannot mean that time will cease to exist but rather that there will be no more delay in the fulfilment of the prophecy.
there is still the counting of 3 1/2 years after this and the counting of 1000 years after that.
what is eternity? not the absence of time but rather time without end.