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Gap theory

By all means, please do provide quotes from canonical works that tell us when the angles were created.
By all means what would the creation of angels have to do with debunking a book that claims snow and rain is dumped out by angles (whenever they were created) in th lowest level of heaven right above the sky. The book is a load of crap. You can find better evidence than that. Or can you?
 
Rev 10:5-7
And the angel which I saw stand upon the sea and upon the earth lifted up his hand toheaven,
And sware by him that liveth forever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are,†and the earth, and the things that therein are,† and the sea, and the things which are therein,† that there should be time no longer:
But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound,† the mystery o f God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.
Word: cronoj

Pronounce: khron'-os

Strongs Number: G5550

Orig: of uncertain derivation; a space of time (in general, and thus properly distinguished from 2540, which designates a fixed or special occasion; and from 165, which denotes a particular period) or interval; by extension, an individual opportunity; by implication, delay:--+ years old, season, space, (X often-)time(-s), (a) while. G2540

Use: TDNT-9:581,1337 Noun Masculine

Heb Strong: H319 H2161 H3117 H3453 H4801H5704 H5704 H6256 H6471 H7093 H7281 H8447


  1. 1) time either long or short






Am I the only person who uses a Strongs around here? The word translated in this verse is Khronos and it means time. Not to be confused with





Word: kairoj

Pronounce: kahee-ros'

Strongs Number: G2540

Orig: of uncertain affinity; an occasion, i.e. set or proper time:--X always, opportunity, (convenient, due) season, (due, short, while) time, a while. Compare 5550. G5550

Use: TDNT-3:455,389 Noun Masculine

Heb Strong: H314 H2165 H3117 H4150 H5704 H5732 H5844H6106 H6256 H6471 H6738 H7093 H7272 H8141 H8447 H8454H8622


  1. 1) due measure
    2) a measure of time, a larger or smaller portion of time, hence:
    2a) a fixed and definite time, the time when things are brought to crisis, the decisive epoch waited for
    2b) opportune or seasonable time
    2c) the right time
    2d) a limited period of time
    2e) to what time brings, the state of the times, the things and events of time

I'm going to have to dig into this and I'm not a fan of Greek over Hebrew but it looks like they had 2 different ideas of time. I do remember that khron'-os is the Greek god of time which could be an interesting thing to play with knowing how greek god names like Apollo refer to fallen angels.
 
That is aimed at a very narrow range of matters described as, "knowable" and "having fact patterns."
I don't think God breathed on men to write down his heart so we can say that God meant it to be unknowable. Pretty sure the hard things to understand are invitations for kings.
 
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Chronos is time in general

Kairos is a specific appointed time

And Aeon is a season of time, like a millennia, dispensation, or also used to translate the end of the world (aeon) used by the disciples when they asked Christ about the end of the world in Matthew 24
 
Chronos is time in general

Kairos is a specific appointed time

And Aeon is a season of time, like a millennia, dispensation, or also used to translate the end of the world (aeon) used by the disciples when they asked Christ about the end of the world in Matthew 24
Right. That verse in Revelation refers to Chronos. Time in its simplest form. The best translation for that verse would be that time is no more.
 
The vast majority of us were not told not to mix garment types. That was a command to physical Israelites living in physical Israel. You're skimming the surface of deep waters and you're missing a lot of important stuff.
I'm using the idea behind the command as understood by jewish writing and custom. God hates mixing from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil till the Laodiciean Church of Revelation that God said he would rather be hot or cold but since it is neither he will vomit it from his mouth. In Hebrew thought mingling is always bad and against God's character. That means the enemy had already been in the garden Adam was told to guard and sewed a seed. The fall didn't start with Eve adding and taking from the Word like it is always taught. It started with Adam not performing the task God instructed him to do.
 
Says who?

Exodus 20:5

Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the Lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;
1 Corinthians 15:22

For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

Ezekiel 18:19


Yet say ye, Why? doth not the son bear the iniquity of the father? When the son hath done that which is lawful and right, and hath kept all my statutes, and hath done them, he shall surely live.




Ezekiel 18:20


The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

how do these scriptures mesh?

We are born into sin by the sin of Adam. If any righteous seed had sprung from Adam, before Adam's fall, those would have had to have sinned on their own accord Adam's sin could not have condemned them. When Adam fell his 'seed' became contaminated and all born from him were born into death. Death passes to us from our father not our mother. That is how Jesus was born of a woman but with God being His Father, therefore death was not passed into Him. Jesus has made the way, that even though we had an unrighteous father, we can escape the eternal death that we inherited from Him all the way back to Adam.
 
I'm using the idea behind the command as understood by jewish writing and custom. God hates mixing from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil till the Laodiciean Church of Revelation that God said he would rather be hot or cold but since it is neither he will vomit it from his mouth. In Hebrew thought mingling is always bad and against God's character. That means the enemy had already been in the garden Adam was told to guard and sewed a seed. The fall didn't start with Eve adding and taking from the Word like it is always taught. It started with Adam not performing the task God instructed him to do.
You are aware that this is wild speculation, right?
 
By all means what would the creation of angels have to do with debunking a book that claims snow and rain is dumped out by angles (whenever they were created) in th lowest level of heaven right above the sky. The book is a load of crap. You can find better evidence than that. Or can you?

I was simply providing information I could find on the subject of when angels were created. If you don't like my evidence, provide your own from your own preferred sources. If you were less busy reacting against the source of the quote, you'd have mentioned my own quote was evidence against the theory I've propounded. But by all means, keep up with the pot/kettle business; for modern science finds Gen 1 just as improbable as you do 2nd Enoch.
 
Who was the tempter, and who did James say the temper was?

I presume you're referring to the verse you quoted before...

Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man: But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.

This doesn't say anything about Satan. It simply means we can't blame God for our temptations. We are accountable for our own actions. No one is forcing us to sin, we are simply succumbing to our own carnal nature.

But that doesn't mean Satan doesn't exist, anymore than it means your friend doesn't exist when he ties to convince you to come rob a bank with him. Yes, your lust for money led you to rob the bank; you can't blame your friend. But that doesn't mean your buddy is a mere metaphor.
 
Temptation starts from our own desires.
Are desires bad? some are and some aren't and of themselves
if we are free of bad desires, Satan will try to take a good desire and use in in a wrong way.
To steal or murder . . . not good but to eat food is good! Sexual desire is good and given by God! BUT
If Satan cannot tempt us with a bad desire he will try to cause us to take a 'good desire' beyond God's intention. i.e. sin.

Jesus was hungered. The desire to eat was present and not a bad thing of itself. Satan Tried to use that to push him to try to prove that he was the Son of God by demonstrating miraculous power. that demonstration of power in its self would not be wrong either! Jesus fed the 5.000. The problem was Satan was trying to cause him to act out of doubt and therefore prove that He was. Jesus refused to act out of doubt or fear.

Satan himself probably could have turned the stones to bread, Angels have some miraculous power. Pharaoh's magicians showed that. We must not be caught up in the power game. We must keep our heart pure. Not all desire is bad, but any desire can be used in a wrong way.
 
Exodus 20:5

Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the Lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;
1 Corinthians 15:22


For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

Ezekiel 18:19


Yet say ye, Why? doth not the son bear the iniquity of the father? When the son hath done that which is lawful and right, and hath kept all my statutes, and hath done them, he shall surely live.




Ezekiel 18:20


The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

how do these scriptures mesh?

We are born into sin by the sin of Adam. If any righteous seed had sprung from Adam, before Adam's fall, those would have had to have sinned on their own accord Adam's sin could not have condemned them. When Adam fell his 'seed' became contaminated and all born from him were born into death. Death passes to us from our father not our mother. That is how Jesus was born of a woman but with God being His Father, therefore death was not passed into Him. Jesus has made the way, that even though we had an unrighteous father, we can escape the eternal death that we inherited from Him all the way back to Adam.
Which is what I said and would have applied to any speculative children speculatively born in the Garden. This is just a brain candy idea thrown out as a bone to smooth over criticism of someone else’s bad idea. Don’t make too much out of it.
 
I was simply providing information I could find on the subject of when angels were created. If you don't like my evidence, provide your own from your own preferred sources. If you were less busy reacting against the source of the quote, you'd have mentioned my own quote was evidence against the theory I've propounded. But by all means, keep up with the pot/kettle business; for modern science finds Gen 1 just as improbable as you do 2nd Enoch.
I realize the best defense is a good offense but what are you even defending? You wrongly applied a false scripture in support of a bad idea? I think a tactical retreat would be the best option now.
 
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I


Thanks for your thoughtful reply.
I have never had young creationist give a satisfactory theological theory as to the creation of the spirit realm, Angles and the Fall of Lucifer.
The Idea seems to be that Lucifer's fall was when he tempted man. It seems like very fast work to lead 1/3 of the angels into rebellion in what seems to be a short time between creation of Adam and the fall of Adam. I say short because they were commanded to multiply and Eve hadn't conceived yet. as well as the other questions I posed in a previous post.

Note:
This is not essential doctrine, but how we perceive this could influence how we interact in the spirit realm.

Well, honestly, the reason why you won't find a "good" theory on this subject is lack of data. The Holy Spirit chose to give relatively little special revelation on the matter. As for general revelation, by definition it is going to lack "spirit" stuff. So what kind of theories can we really expect here?

As far as "time". Time is a relative thing when considered on its own. This is indicated both in scripture and by general revelation. However, it is also an absolute when paired or given parameters. While angels do experience "time" as part of the creation, the relative perception is not the same as ours. When you say "very fast work", that is only relative to the position of man. Secular science has even been able to demonstrate this principle
 
The irony here is so thick you would need a maul to split it.
This is kind of funny knowing I am the only one using the whole Bible for the creation account and not just the first 20 verses. Even managed to do it without turning half the stories in the Bible into allegories and poems. I almost through in some science to top it off but it wasn't really needed. If anything from some of the messages I have got it looks like it got some people to think and that is what I wanted.

After all nobody changes their minds reading post on a forum. But they just might if they decide to search it out for themselves.
 
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@AmericanIsraelite : Before you hang it up; Is there a tactical benefit that us 'literal satan' -ists are losing, in your opinion, by believing him to being a separate entity?

It is very hard to know what the total impact of Christianity believing in satan has been.

Most Christians that believe in Satan are opposing him with everything they’ve got. The amount of energy expended in spiritual warfare, learning the enemy’s strongholds, praying against him and casting him and his demons out is huge. Most children raised in churches grew up hearing sermons preached that instilled fear of the devil. Satan has all sorts of powers ascribed to him, and many Christians even call him the god of this world. Christianity has taught people from an early age to regard satan as a god by instilling fear. I have seen Christians when our bible study got interrupted by an emergency call say “The devil must not like what we’re doing studying the word.” A neighbor I like a lot shocked me with his response to my suggestion of getting a group of people together in the community to do service projects and help others. I told him I thought it would be good for people that did not attend the church to get involved in something that would benefit the community. He said “There’s not a lot of point in trying to do that sort of thing. Until God locks up satan we aren’t going to be able to really make a difference.” This man is a respected older gentleman and a deacon in the local church.

How many people in history have felt they were lost to the devil? That they were beyond the reach of God because of their inability to beat satan in the battle for their soul? Contrast that with resist the devil and he will flee.

The tactical advantage belongs to the people who don’t have to try and figure out a supernatural enemy, pray against him, battle against his evil minions, and give him the fear and respect that rightfully belongs to YHWH. They realize that they know their adversary, they see him in the mirror every time they look in it. You could also miss the chastening of YHWH in your life if you wrongfully give satan the credit for what YHWH is doing in your life.

When we remove the supernatural satan we truly become monotheistic and can rest in the knowledge that YHWH is in control. We recognize that all things work together for good, we see the evil for what it truly is, man’s sin and lawlessness. We then recognize that the battle is fought internally, not in some otherworld. This understanding eliminates the cop out of “The devil made me do it” or as a friend’s wife once told him after she slapped him “An angel made me do it” perhaps that was one of satan’s angels? A man freed in this manner can then work on taking the beam out of his own eye and then helping his brother. He is less likely to see the sinner as a victim of a battle he couldn’t win and more likely to educate him in how he can win, as in giving him real things he can do beyond just praying for deliverance. I think prayer is great, but if you have a thorn in your foot you should remove it, not just pray the pain will go away. Another advantage is you are less likely to stress when facing challenges because you know it’s not some supernatural satan attacking you. When evil or calamity comes upon you, instead of spending time praying against satan, you simply turn to YHWH and ask Him “What would you have me do?”

The truth really does set you free. I see absolutely no advantage to believing in a supernatural satan. If there are advantages, please share. In the meantime, when my children do wrong, I will teach them to resist the evil inclination that is their internal adversary. When I am tempted, I will resist, and if my neighbor has a problem with me, I will go to him and try to find out what I did to cause him to hate me. When the government does wrong, I will tell my children that this is the evil in high places that we need to watch out for.

The common denominator I see in every evil is, it is all rooted in the heart of man.

I was not raised with this understanding, I arrived at this position through study and over a period of time. This understanding has caused me as much upheaval with my family friends and neighbors as affirming the morality of polygyny. I do not believe it is likely I will change my views on either subject. Even so, if someone has a better understanding of the truth, I want to be willing to see it.
 
@AmericanIsraelite, I agree with your approach to taking personal responsibility for anything evil in our lives. I think that the Kingdom of Heaven would be greatly advanced if all would learn from your position.
I do believe that satan does exist as a being, but that is a minor point to me. Resisting evil and actually living past evil, with the Kingdom in focus, is where the rubber should meet the road for us.
 
Demons FAVORITE SCRIPTURE

43 When the unclean spirit is gone out of a man, he walks through dry places, seeking rest, and finds none. 44 Then he says, I will return into my house from whence I came out; and when he is come, he finds it empty, swept, and garnished . 45 Then goes he, and takes with himself seven other spirits more wicked than himself, and they enter in and dwell there: and the last state of that man is worse than the first. Even so shall it be also unto this wicked generation. Matthew 12:43-45

THIS IS AMONG THE MOST MISUSED VERSES IN THE BIBLE

In Matthew 12, Jesus reproves the Pharisees and the generation of Israel to which He came. He healed and cast out demons. He rebuked them for their unbelief and likened the nation to one who has demons. He spoke of them as a generation that were resolved to continue in demonization and the possession, being under the power of Satan, in spite of all of God’s attempts to rescue them and free them. Jesus uses a parable to compare them to one out of whom the devil is gone, but returns with double force. The demon is here called the unclean spirit.
The parable represents his possessing men’s bodies...Matthew Henry says, “Christ having lately cast out a devil, and they having said he had a devil, gave occasion to show how much they were under the power of Satan. This is a further proof that Christ did not cast out devils by compact with the devil, for then he would soon have returned again; but Christ’s ejectment of him was final, and such as barred a re-entry. We find him charging the evil spirit to go out, and enter no more, Mk. 9:25.” What a great statement, there was no deal with Satan as the Jews had accused Him...there are two key issues in clarifying this horribly misused scripture. 1) It was a parable 2) the word is gone out, not cast out.
Another great insight from Matthew Henry: “Probably the devil was wont sometimes thus to sport with those he had possession of; he would go out, and then return again with more fury; hence the lucid intervals of those in that condition were commonly followed with the more violent fits. When the devil is gone out, he is uneasy, for he sleeps not except he have done mischief (Prov. 4:16); he walks in dry places, like one that is very melancholy; he seeks rest but finds none, till he returns again. When Christ cast the legion out of the man, they begged leave to enter into the swine, where they went not long in dry places, but into the lake presently.”
The application of the parable makes it to represent the case of the body of the Jewish church and nation. So shall it be with this wicked generation, that now resist, and will finally reject, the gospel of Christ...and then he shall take a durable possession here, and the state of this people is likely to be more desperately damnable than it was before Christ came among them, or would have been if Satan had never been cast out.” Clearly Jesus makes this statement in parable to what He called a wicked generation.
Before I wrote the book WHEN PIGS MOVE IN, I struggled with this verse I honestly did not understand it and it begged the question, What’s the point in casting demons out if they can come back seven times stronger? I could not put it together in my mind and heart.
I was absolutely clear on the casting out of demons, but them coming back with greater force? There is not one case of a demon being cast out in the Old Testament, not one. The casting out began with the ministry of the Messiah. Many times I am asked if I think that casting out demons is a gift. The answer is no, it is a command! It is not listed as a gift of the Spirit, but it is a command and part of the great commission. Jesus did it and told us to do it.
The great commission in Mark’s gospel says it is one of the signs that will accompany believers and it is the first sign mentioned. Note it is mentioned before speaking with new tongues...funny how many preachers go right to speaking in tongues and never mention casting out demons. Not only is it not mentioned, many are teaching that Believers can’t have demons. Do you find that strange?
Mark 16:17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;
Clearly Jesus came to bring a new covenant. He sent rookies out in His Name to cast out demons. In order for demons to be cast out, they must obviously be in. He did something that was never done in the old covenant although there was an abundant of miracles, no demons were cast out. This was a new thing, along with this came healings as a result of the demons leaving. Why so quiet in the pulpits, the one’s who cry loudest about the new tongues, never mention the demons.
In Mark 9:38-39 a man who was not a disciple but knew the authority of Jesus' name was casting out demons! “And John answered him, saying, Master, we saw one casting out devils in thy name, and he follows not us: and we forbad him, because he follows not us.
39 But Jesus said, Forbid him not: for there is no man which shall do a miracle in my name, that can lightly speak evil of me.”
And...Jesus called it a miracle! Casting out demons is a miracle. Why don’t we see miracles in church, because we don’t believe enough to simply obey Jesus...miracles happen in Jesus Name.
The word demon strikes fear in people, it puts you outside the “normal” believer. Ignorant preachers continue with foolish doctrines concerning demonic spirits.
Back to them coming back 7 times stronger. The key to understanding this scripture is the word “gone” out. It is not cast out with the authority of Jesus name! Casting demons out includes removing their legal consent to be there. It is closing the door, it is eviction!
If they don’t take the keys to my office I can just stroll back in tomorrow! I’ll come back thru the same door I went out, but if the door is closed and I am legally evicted. I cannot come back thru that door!
When demons leave on their own, they can move around, look for a better house, hang with their buddies and even take them back with him. Because they have a doorway. Not because the Holy Spirit has not filled their house, that’s not even implied. This house was clean and decorated, but the permission for the demon had not been cancelled, so he could come back whenever he wanted. Casting out demons removes their legal rights! They like to keep us in ignorance about this, it is a fear tactic that keeps many people from deliverance.
I am currently writing a new book. Thanks for your prayers!
Just for Jesus,
Don

WE DON’T KNOW WHAT GOD WILL DO BUT WE KNOW WHAT HE CAN DO

mail

Email: don@dondickerman.com
Website: dondickerman.com






Considering casting out demons was the main affliction Jesus Addressed. It seems clear that there is an adversary outside of your own flesh.
Which is why I find ministries focused on setting the captives free and their perspective on satan and evil very knowledgeable.
 
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