What is Good and what is Evil?

[Jim an Apostle]

Ultimately Goodness is that which contributes to the well being of the whole.

God is the only one who has ALL of the facts! (with His Son Jesus)
God is committed to the Good of the 'Whole.'
Sin and Evil is ultimately destructive to self and the 'Whole.'
Because God is the only one who has all of the facts, it is best to accept His direction as to what is Good.
Amputation may become Good in our (temporary realm) if it saves the body.

 

[Cap]

Through the exercise of other creatures which have been given free-will.

Just because God gave free-will to others does not mean He authorizes its miss use!
God does not desire us or angels even animals to be robots.
He is to powerful and intelligent for that to be of interest or a challenge to Him at all.
Even we are quickly bored by a robot.
If I give you a hammer it does not mean that I approve your misuse of it.

So are you saying that free will creates evil, therefore we can create something God can't?

 

[Soldier's Psalm]

If evil is not God's will how does it happen?

Not everything that happens is God's will.

But the result of this is that evil doesn’t exist as a tangible thing. It wasn’t created. It is not able to be defined or quantified. It only has meaning in reference to something else.

Pretty sure this is wrong. Evil is a very tangible thing that fills the void left by a lack of God's Presence.

Glad you realize this is allegory.

I believe this was actually about the two houses of Israel. The one squandered his inheritance with harlots then later, realizing that the servants in his father's house had it better, he purposed to return and be a servant. He was welcomed back with open arms and the brother who had been faithful (Judah....well, sort of. YHWH said Judah actually did worse) was envious.

The gentiles that were prophesied to come from Ephraim when Jacob blessed him DID come back in, becoming heirs of salvation with those of Judah that converted. Without work.....or works, because Yeshua had completed that work on our behalf.
The reason it is said that the son was dead is it connects to Ezekiel's vision of the dry bones.

I don't think that is a good interpretation knowing the context of what Jesus was talking about that day. The parable of the good Shepherd, Parable of the lost coin and then Parable of the Prodigal Son. Jesus finishes up in Chapter 14 talking about counting the cost of following him and then opens up in
Luke 15:1 Tax collectors and other notorious sinners came to listen to Jesus teach. 2 This made the Pharisees and teachers of religious law complain that he was associating with such sinful people—even eating with them!

Jesus is explaining the kingdom to sinners and rebuking Pharisees all at the same time. To put this about the houses of Israel is a stretch at best. Plus, I can't think of a better picture of God's love for us than the story of the Prodigal Son. A father's love driving him to run to his boy when he sees him afar off I think sums it up. And how much better is God our father than our earthly father?

Plus, the only early Church father I could find have anything on it also interpreted the story of the prodigal son as we do today so I think that has been the common understanding of it since the beginning.

 

[Jim an Apostle]

So are you saying that free will creates evil, therefore we can create something God can't?

Yes and No.
Evil is when 'free-will' choses to go contrary to God's will. Even Jesus said, 'not my will, but thine be done.'

If free-will is not free, then it is not free-will. To only have one choice is not a choice.
"You can have any color of car you like as long as it is black." . . . that is no choice at all.

The extent to which God created evil is only to the extent that He created a system that requires 'goodness' in order to be the only path to the 'good of the whole

.​

' God has already chosen to follow that path. Now, we get to chose whether to follow Him in that path, or not.

God did create the power to destroy and punish that which is contrary to His will. That force (our God is a consuming fire) may be destructive, at times, but is a necessary force and final trump card when dealing with other free-wills. That force may be destructive, but not evil.

God's sovereignty is that He allows free-will but retains the final judgment. His purpose is to find and develop those of free-will who will submit to His purpose and His way, just as a husband seeks a wife who will do the same.

God could choose (He does have free-will) to do or become evil; however, that would bring destruction to the creation and even to Himself. God remains God, not just because He has ultimate power but also because He is committed to the right use of that power. Any power misused can bring destruction. God's power is not immune to the possibility of misuse. God has demonstrated, and we have faith, that His goodness prevails and that the fate of the universe has an expected good outcome. This ultimately hinged upon the success of Jesus! If Jesus had failed, God could have destroyed the whole of the universe and none would be the wiser.

ALL THINGS WERE CREATED FOR THE PURPOSE OF THE MANIFESTATION OF THE SON OF GOD (JESUS)

God's desire that sparked the creation was to have a begotten Son... a Son who would be obedient, and faithful, and who could share His (God's) throne, and Glory, and complete mind. All others share a part. Only Jesus is the fulness of the Godhead bodily. Only Jesus has access to the full measure of the Glory and mind of God.

When the final Great White Throne Judgment is over there will be a remnant that will have a Godly seed and the universe will ultimately be filled with those of free-will who will have learned the lesson that God is good, and just, and the only one who can be trusted with the sustaining of the universe. Adam's sin contaminated his seed, and by extension, all those born of him. During the thousand-year reign, God will be purging the sin nature. The final battle, when fire descends, will effectively eradicate the remaining Ungodly Seed... ie., those holding on to the sin nature.​

God is letting sin run its course so future generations will never be able to say, "If sin had only been tried our way, it would have worked."... because all the ways would have been tried, and the end of all sin is destruction.​

 

[Nikud]

My understanding in my own words hope it helps.

If I stand in an empty field at noon I cast a shadow. Its there because of me. Its Visibible yet intangible. It has no substance of its own. Without the light of the sun a spot where it doesn't shine brightly would be impossible. So the yes the sun creates the shadow but I'm responsible for it being there. Without me standing between the sun and the ground there would be no shadow.

If the grass is unable to get light and dies because of my shadow its because I stood in the way not because the sun.

 

[Cap]

God did create the power to destroy and punish that which is contrary to His will. That force (our God is a consuming fire) may be destructive, at times, but is a necessary force and final trump card when dealing with other free-wills. That force may be destructive, but not evil.

God's sovereignty is that He allows free-will but retains the final judgment.

So technically, there is no free will. We will do it God's way one way or the other.

"You can have any color of car you like as long as it is black." . . . that is no choice at all."

The common thought is that choices are binary, which says God gave you free will to choose this one or that one and so it appears we have free will. However, I think God created reality based on either choice you make, so it appears you have free will but whatever you choose God has a plan for it.

1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. 2 Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters. 3 And God said, “Let there be light,” and there was light.

Who created the darkness?

When Jesus said, not my will but yours, He was stating reality. We can have desires, we can make choices, but Jesus knew who's will He would ultimately be doing, because He knew His path, even though at the time it was not a comfortable one for the human side of Him.

 

[Cap]

Not everything that happens is God's will.

How can this be? The statement implies that a will can be created without God.

You may say, well I could go rob a bank tomorrow and that would not be God's will. Well would you? Is it in you? If you did then who is to say it wasn't God's will?

God hardened Pharaoh's heart for His will. God created and directed Judas to fulfill God's will in regards to His Son. Did Judas just decide to do his own will and God had to catch up and fix everything?

 

[Soldier's Psalm]

How can this be? The statement implies that a will can be created without God.

You may say, well I could go rob a bank tomorrow and that would not be God's will. Will would you? Is it in you? If you did then who is to say it wasn't God's will?

God hardened Pharaoh's heart for His will. God created and directed Judas to fulfill God's will in regards to His Son.

God says the he would that all would come to repentance. Then tells us that all don't. God doesn't want people to go to hell but many will. He didn't want the genocide of infants in America or the millions of Christians killed in Asia.

Genesis 50:20 But as for you, ye thought evil against me; [but] God meant it unto good, to bring to pass, as [it is] this day, to save much people alive.

God is so good at taking bad things and making them good that I think a lot of people mistake the bad thing for his will. God can take our many mistakes and failures and turn them into something valuable for the Kingdom. Whether that be our testimony or a drive in us to see others delivered from the same mistakes, God can take a bad situation and use it for his glory.

 

[Joleneakamama]

I don't think that is a good interpretation knowing the context of what Jesus was talking about that day.

Well, Jesus was speaking to an audience that would have understood his words in light of their knowlege of prophesy and scripture.
Jesus said in Luke 19:10 "For the Son of man is come to seek and to save that which was lost."
What was lost?
We have in other places things spoken like "I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel" and "Go to the lost sheep of the house of Israel"
Jesus is called the holy one of Israel, and the redeemer of Israel. Redemption actually is a reference to paying a debt. Israel was previously in covenant and had been put away and punished....destroyed even. These are those that were redeemed. (Like the concept of maid servants being redeemed by their families)
The great commission has Jesus sending his servants into all the world to spread the good news, and of course all have sinned, and Jesus is how Abraham's seed blesses all the families of the earth, but YHWH redeeming His people is one of the things that shows His love and faithfulness. By missing the national redemption, and the prophesied grace that was to come to who? (Here is a hint, Hosea was a prophet to what people?) The testimony of the promises kept gets kinda lost.
Just for whatever it's worth. I have had someone here (years ago in archived thread) say that the parable was about the ten tribes.....but he sure did not want to recognize that the 'son' coming back did not have to do anything to earn the father's favor!

We each have a unique perspective I guess, and they overlap with those of others in places.

 

[Cap]

God says the he would that all would come to repentance. Then tells us that all don't. God doesn't want people to go to hell but many will. He didn't want the genocide of infants in America or the millions of Christians killed in Asia.

Genesis 50:20 But as for you, ye thought evil against me; [but] God meant it unto good, to bring to pass, as [it is] this day, to save much people alive.

God is so good at taking bad things and making them good that I think a lot of people mistake the bad thing for his will. God can take our many mistakes and failures and turn them into something valuable for the Kingdom. Whether that be our testimony or a drive in us to see others delivered from the same mistakes, God can take a bad situation and use it for his glory.

I understand what you are saying, I am more inclined to see bad things in life, whether by our own will or not, is a part of the sanctification process God has for each one of us.

As far as an eternal hell for those who don't choose wisely, I'm not exactly sure can be attributed to a loving God. But that's a whole other thread.

 

[Jim an Apostle]

So technically, there is no free will. We will do it God's way one way or the other.

"You can have any color of car you like as long as it is black." . . . that is no choice at all."

The common thought is that choices are binary, which says God gave you free will to choose this one or that one and so it appears we have free will. However, I think God created reality based on either choice you make, so it appears you have free will but whatever you choose God has a plan for it.

1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. 2 Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters. 3 And God said, “Let there be light,” and there was light.

Who created the darkness?

When Jesus said, not my will but yours, He was stating reality. We can have desires, we can make choices, but Jesus knew who's will He would ultimately be doing, because He knew His path, even though at the time it was not a comfortable one for the human side of Him.

This thinking is Calvinistic. It is also the inevitable result of a false doctrine that almost everyone accepts. The false premise that leads to this conclusion is the Idea that God knows EVERYTHING from before the creation. It also supposes that God could not create or deal with truly free-will without the safety net of complete foreknowledge. You have to deal with the interaction of free-wills without the comfort of having complete foreknowledge. Is That something God could not do?

Jesus had choices and could have failed or else the temptations and the triumphs were meaningless.
Judas had the choice! If He had not made this choice we would be reading someone else's story.
There will be an anti-Christ, but God, who is willing that none should perish, did not chose Judas or the person who will become the Anti-Christ to have no choice from the foundation of the world.

Predestination applies to plan not persons. All have a choice! Satan had a choice! Adam had a choice! Judas had a choice! Even Pharaoh had a choice! The same sun that hardens the clay softens the wax. the difference not the sun!

On a deeper note it is possible to sin away your free-will. But that would be a result of one's choices.

Several times in Scripture even God repented (changed) his dealings with free-wills because of what they did or did not do and it indicates that he did not 'know' in advance or the change (repenting) would be a sham.

No! this is not a prearranged play for our enlightenment or God's entertainment.
Life is real. Choices are real with real consequences.

God does not have to 'know' in advance God can handle free-will.

 

[steve]

God does not have to 'know' in advance God can handle free-will.

I had a situation some time ago in which a person’s choice surprised me. I was mentioning it to The Father ( sometimes affectionately known as Dad) when I felt like He said It surprised me too.
I was shocked!
I thought you knew everything!
His answer?
I hadn’t watched the video.

So yes, He has the ability to know everything. He just chooses not to at times. That blew me away.
Ya gotta admit, it wouldn’t be very interesting watching us ants crawl around if you knew each decision that they were going to make thousands of years ahead of time.

 

[Cap]

This thinking is Calvinistic. It is also the inevitable result of a false doctrine that almost everyone accepts. The false premise that leads to this conclusion is the Idea that God knows EVERYTHING from before the creation. It also supposes that God could not create or deal with truly free-will without the safety net of complete foreknowledge. You have to deal with the interaction of free-wills without the comfort of having complete foreknowledge. Is That something God could not do?

Jesus had choices and could have failed or else the temptations and the triumphs were meaningless.
Judas had the choice! If He had not made this choice we would be reading someone else's story.
There will be an anti-Christ, but God, who is willing that none should perish, did not chose Judas or the person who will become the Anti-Christ to have no choice from the foundation of the world.

Predestination applies to plan not persons. All have a choice! Satan had a choice! Adam had a choice! Judas had a choice! Even Pharaoh had a choice! The same sun that hardens the clay softens the wax. the difference not the sun!

On a deeper note it is possible to sin away your free-will. But that would be a result of one's choices.

Several times in Scripture even God repented (changed) his dealings with free-wills because of what they did or did not do and it indicates that he did not 'know' in advance or the change (repenting) would be a sham.

No! this is not a prearranged play for our enlightenment or God's entertainment.
Life is real. Choices are real with real consequences.

God does not have to 'know' in advance God can handle free-will.

I am not really sure why there is such an aversion to the idea of predestination, when it's easily accepted that we are trying to become like Christ. We are willing to lose our identity in Christ but yet it's unacceptable to lose our lives to a preordained destiny.

If you understand how quantum computers work you can see how God can easily deal with free will from our point of view but from His point of view He can take all probabilities and collapse them into whatever will we can come up with. So we see free will, God sees predestined probabilities.

And I would think God would have to know everything before He could create anything.

 

[Nikud]

Ok just because I had this conversation 15 minutes ago in my home group. I'm going to throw around a few statements and questions that were made. None by me, so don't shoot the relay man as he passes the baton.

So Gods Prophecies are educated guesses? Like a carne fortuneteller?

Do Angels have free will?

Where in the bible does it say that free will exist and is defined, other than the interpretation of ability to choose and react to situations which even animals can do?

 

[Jim an Apostle]

And I would think God would have to know everything before He could create anything.

That would seem to me to be a small and insecure god.
God is not afraid of free-will. He can and will intervene at appropriate times. He will ultimately judge all things.

Mat 13:47 Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto a net, that was cast into the sea, and gathered of every kind:
Mat 13:48 Which, when it was full, they drew to shore, and sat down, and gathered the good into vessels, but cast the bad away.
Mat 13:49 So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,
Mat 13:50 And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

 

[Cap]

That would seem to me to be a small and insecure god.
God is not afraid of free-will. He can and will intervene at appropriate times. He will ultimately judge all things.

Mat 13:47 Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto a net, that was cast into the sea, and gathered of every kind:
Mat 13:48 Which, when it was full, they drew to shore, and sat down, and gathered the good into vessels, but cast the bad away.
Mat 13:49 So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,
Mat 13:50 And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

Genesis 26:4 I will make your descendants as numerous as the stars in the sky

Matthew 6:26 Look at the birds of the air; they do not sow or reap or store away in barns, and yet your heavenly Father feeds them. Are you not much more valuable than they?

Luke 12:7 Indeed, the very hairs of your head are all numbered. Don't be afraid; you are worth more than many sparrows.

"That would seem to me to be a small and insecure god.

God is not afraid of free-will. He can and will intervene at appropriate times. He will ultimately judge all things. "

I guess I didn't make myself clear on my last post about free will and predestination, and computers. Our "free will" is not an issue for God, because He already knows ALL the possible choices we could make.

I personally find comfort in that.

 

[Jim an Apostle]

Ok just because I had this conversation 15 minutes ago in my home group. I'm going to throw around a few statements and questions that were made. None by me, so don't shoot the relay man as he passes the baton.

So Gods Prophecies are educated guesses? Like a carne fortuneteller?

Do Angels have free will?

Where in the bible does it say that free will exist and is defined, other than the interpretation of ability to choose and react to situations which even animals can do?

Yes Angels have free-will
Judgment is based un our use of free-will . . . Angels will be Judged

How does God bring prophecy to pass?

• foreknowledge of His own plan
• observation of Satan and demons from the first earth and the present earth to know there probable actions and reactions
• observation of man
• the ability to create and or intervene in circumstances
• seeking out those who will be obedient
• at times using those who have sinned away there own free-will for his own purposes.

Many many times free-will is addressed in the scripture
choose you this day whom you will serve
the willing and the obedient shall eat the good of the land
whosoever will may drink of the water of life (free-will) will still exist in the New Heaven and the New Earth.
hundreds of IFs in the Scripture

Also all prophecy is conditional whether the conditions are spoken or not

 

[Nikud]

Yes Angels have free-will
Judgment is based un our use of free-will . . . Angels will be Judged

That's almost what I said.

I personally see the concept of free will and predestination throughout scripture. So to me its not as black and white as for others. Knowing that no one can do anything to thwart the Fathers plans for His Victory conveys a level of predestination while the fact that I can sabatoge the Fathers plans for me with my disobedience shows a level of free will.

Jonah choose to disobey God, free will. God reacted and through a crucible (a shadow of a predestined event) 3 days and nights in a belly of a fish, Jonah had a change of heart and obeyed, free will again. Ninevah repents and is spared, another foreshadowed event that Yeshua reiterates will happend.

 

[Cap]

Jonah choose to disobey God, free will. God reacted and through a crucible (a shadow of a predestined event) 3 days and nights in a belly of a fish, Jonah had a change of heart and obeyed, free will again. Ninevah repents and is spared, another foreshadowed event that Yeshua reiterates will happend.

It could be assumed that the sole purpose of the events leading up to ninevah repenting was a direct result of God's will, therefore did Jonah truly excersize free will from God's point of view?

I don't think it can be said that God "reacts" to any situation.

 

[The Revolting Man]

I have a hard time embracing this idea. It feels pretty tangible when one is faced with immense evil.

So does cold and darkness and yet they don’t exist other than as the absence of heat and light.