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General What do we know about TTWCM?

I reiterate- Scripture does not begin with marriage as we pollute it today. That which we might call marriage was instead Cleaving. Cleaving is not marriage, it is sex plain and simple. TRM has extended "cleaving" to mean marriage and has strained scripture to choke that one down. Because HE said so, it then undoubtedly means marriage, scripture references notwithstanding. He is not a teachable leader here and has proven to be disagreeable in every communication. This is a voluntary association of like minded individuals who regularly endure his bombastic retort. I don't appreciate be talked down to.
 
I reiterate- Scripture does not begin with marriage as we pollute it today. That which we might call marriage was instead Cleaving. Cleaving is not marriage, it is sex plain and simple. TRM has extended "cleaving" to mean marriage and has strained scripture to choke that one down. Because HE said so, it then undoubtedly means marriage, scripture references notwithstanding. He is not a teachable leader here and has proven to be disagreeable in every communication. This is a voluntary association of like minded individuals who regularly endure his bombastic retort. I don't appreciate be talked down to.
Well this is completely false. I equate “one flesh” with marriage. As does Christ and Paul. Cleave is what you’re supposed to do once you’ve become one flesh.

I’m sorry I’ve failed to explain that better. Maybe it will make more sense now. Clearly “cleave” is not “marriage”.
 
"What? know ye not that he which is joined to an harlot is one body? for two, saith he, shall be one flesh." (copy and paste from blueletterbible)

Lots of men are married to harlots then. Unless of course they are not married(verb) when they form one flesh with her.

Now for context: Paul was contrasting the pagan temple worship which necessarily includes prostitution and resultant child sacrifice versus being a righteous man and NOT becoming involved in that. It ties paganism with idolatry very easily. Read history and the story becomes even more colorful. It's nothing new. What IS new is our sanitizing of ancient paganism(we have a habit of making the ways of the world less offensive vis-a-vis abortion).

Now the admonition: Flee that whole scene men! Flee fornication. One flesh here is fornication NOT marriage.

Footnote: 1 Cor 6

Sex is neither righteous nor unrighteous. It is the "with whom" that makes the difference. There must be another ingredient- PERMISSION! Oh no, here we are again, back to dear ol' dad the original owner. By the way, back to Adam and Eve: God the Father GAVE her to him then assigned father and mother the prerogative("therefore" is the conjunctive adjective in Gen 2:24) to do the same. Tangent point- Rape is taking what doesn't belong to you because there was no transaction(theft). Adultery is taking what belongs to someone else(if it is with a prostitute then it is still adultery because she belongs to the local pagan high priest [her pimp]). Abortion is idolatry(sacrificing today's problem for a better tomorrow).
Sex with a "free agent" unmarried woman or properly divorced woman becomes defacto contract of marriage if she is amenable.
 
Now for context: Paul was contrasting the pagan temple worship which necessarily includes prostitution and resultant child sacrifice versus being a righteous man and NOT becoming involved in that
I’m going to need you to show me that in the text.


Do you not know that your bodies are members of Christ? Shall I then take away the members of Christ and make them members of a prostitute? May it never be!
16 Or do you not know that the one who joins himself to a prostitute is one body with her?For He says, “THE TWO SHALL BECOME ONE FLESH.”
17 But the one who joins himself to the Lord is one spirit with Him.
18 Flee immorality. Every other sin that a man commits is outside the body, but the fnimmoral man sins against his own body.
19 Or do you not know that your body is a fntemple of the Holy Spirit who is in you, whom you have from fnGod, and that you are not your own?
20 For you have been bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body.


I don’t see any mention of temples or child sacrifice in there.
 
Scripture does not contain the depths of depravity from paganism. For that we rely on other sources in the realm of "humanities". The admonishment from scripture is "Don't do those things the world does". The scripture referenced by me and quoted by you again highlights the CONTRAST of God's ways versus ungodly ways. We apply what we know and understand from God's inspired writings. In 21st Century Christianity we have lost in translation the view of extreme wickedness of history. My contention regarding TTWCM (this thing we call marriage) is that modern paradigm is so far removed from God's ordained practice that I really don't like the word "marriage". The word itself is polluted with modern connotation and christian worldliness which is kissin cousin to abject ungodliness.
Now regarding our faith and practice, we agree that we need to follow that which has been given. Again the problem might be for some that the exclusiveness of New Testament Christianity ignores the very foundation upon which the apostles wrote. To understand sin we must be a student of the Old Testament underpinnings namely, the Ten Commandments. Our practices and prohibitions should align with those and ONLY then can we call out permissions. It is why I relate directly back to "this is a violation of that" sort of retort. The ancient authors understood the gap between the foundation of Exodus 20 and the vagaries of human nature and so further explanation was given. In the absence of prohibition we have permission. Even still more scripture is given to call out the foolishness in Proverbs et.al. In the face of thou shalt not commit adultery we have "what is the marriage thing that shall not be violated?" There is a God ordained and explained societal structure which the world is constantly trying to subvert namely the patriarchy. Patriarchy insists on delineation of authority. The creation of a contract between two people does not supersede the structure, i.e sexual activity does not trump existing rules. Just because you cleave to each other does not mean you have permission to. In a simplistic way, gardening- read into that mowing, plowing, planting of seed on property that you don't own does not override title of land held by someone else.
Most of us are owners to one degree or another. Imagine if your neighbor took his John Deere to a 60 foot swath of land and plowed under your beets and radishes to plant his tomatoes. You would be quite upset and demand payment for damages. In similar fashion, impregnating my daughter does not mean you get to keep her! Let's negotiate(or not)! Young studly does not make the rules, dear old dad does. Cleaving does not imply nor does a pregnant tummy insist ownership or... marriage.
 
Scripture does not contain the depths of depravity from paganism. For that we rely on other sources in the realm of "humanities". The admonishment from scripture is "Don't do those things the world does". The scripture referenced by me and quoted by you again highlights the CONTRAST of God's ways versus ungodly ways. We apply what we know and understand from God's inspired writings. In 21st Century Christianity we have lost in translation the view of extreme wickedness of history. My contention regarding TTWCM (this thing we call marriage) is that modern paradigm is so far removed from God's ordained practice that I really don't like the word "marriage". The word itself is polluted with modern connotation and christian worldliness which is kissin cousin to abject ungodliness.
Now regarding our faith and practice, we agree that we need to follow that which has been given. Again the problem might be for some that the exclusiveness of New Testament Christianity ignores the very foundation upon which the apostles wrote. To understand sin we must be a student of the Old Testament underpinnings namely, the Ten Commandments. Our practices and prohibitions should align with those and ONLY then can we call out permissions. It is why I relate directly back to "this is a violation of that" sort of retort. The ancient authors understood the gap between the foundation of Exodus 20 and the vagaries of human nature and so further explanation was given. In the absence of prohibition we have permission. Even still more scripture is given to call out the foolishness in Proverbs et.al. In the face of thou shalt not commit adultery we have "what is the marriage thing that shall not be violated?" There is a God ordained and explained societal structure which the world is constantly trying to subvert namely the patriarchy. Patriarchy insists on delineation of authority. The creation of a contract between two people does not supersede the structure, i.e sexual activity does not trump existing rules. Just because you cleave to each other does not mean you have permission to. In a simplistic way, gardening- read into that mowing, plowing, planting of seed on property that you don't own does not override title of land held by someone else.
Most of us are owners to one degree or another. Imagine if your neighbor took his John Deere to a 60 foot swath of land and plowed under your beets and radishes to plant his tomatoes. You would be quite upset and demand payment for damages. In similar fashion, impregnating my daughter does not mean you get to keep her! Let's negotiate(or not)! Young studly does not make the rules, dear old dad does. Cleaving does not imply nor does a pregnant tummy insist ownership or... marriage.
Ownership. Is. Not. A. Model. For. One. Flesh. This is a jaw droppingly bad analogy. Owners can transfer title anytime and to anyone they want. Ownership survives death, with the dead owner willing the property to whomever they choose.

None of these things are true with women. A husband is specifically forbidden from transferring ownership. There is no clear indication that a father transfers ownership at all. Neither the husband’s or the father’s alleged title survives death.

This is another fallacy we’ve allowed to creep into our community. It is a falsehood and it is warping all of your assumptions.
 
Bogus falsehood debunking time:

There is NO word in the original Hebrew which translates correctly to "fornication" in English.* Not even the alleged Greek 'porneia' means anything more than some general type of sexual sin, which is more inclusive. Anything actually prohibited in the Books of Leviticus, Debarim/Deuteronomy, etc - from incest to adultery to 'rape' - is included in "porneia".



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* Likewise, "pre-marital," meaning before Official Licensure, sex, which is a non-existent concept.
 
There is no clear indication that a father transfers ownership at all.
As @steve has said, yes, we have plenty of examples of this. For want of a better word, a child is the "property" of the father, which is why he has authority over her in the first place, as recognised even in secular law except where the State is usurping parental authority and assuming ownership of children instead (which is common). This form of "ownership" is obviously different to how you own a hammer, but it does exist, otherwise the parent would have no authority at all. The father does then transfer this form of ownership to the husband. If you don't like the word "ownership", pick a different one - but we should agree that there is something here, whatever name we use.

But otherwise you are correct:
Ownership. Is. Not. A. Model. For. One. Flesh. This is a jaw droppingly bad analogy. Owners can transfer title anytime and to anyone they want. Ownership survives death, with the dead owner willing the property to whomever they choose.
Exactly. Ownership is not one flesh - one flesh is not ownership. These are two separate and independent concepts.
 
Bogus falsehood debunking time:

There is NO word in the original Hebrew which translates correctly to "fornication" in English.* Not even the alleged Greek 'porneia' means anything more than some general type of sexual sin, which is more inclusive. Anything actually prohibited in the Books of Leviticus, Debarim/Deuteronomy, etc - from incest to adultery to 'rape' - is included in "porneia".



--------------------------
* Likewise, "pre-marital," meaning before Official Licensure, sex, which is a non-existent concept.
100% agree with this! Yes!!
Finally someone is getting that meaning right!!
Kudos to you Mark!!
 
Rebekah?
Leah?
Rachel?
Dinah?
I’m astonished that you could make such a statement, how could you not know this?
Because none of those imply that the father transferred “ownership”. Was Rebekah’s father even there? Wasn’t that her uncle? And Dinah? The rape victim? Even Leah and Rachel aren’t examples of what you’re claiming.

Examples of male family members engaging in questionable behavior around weddings does not show that a father has ownership of his daughter or that he has to transfer that ownership for a valid one flesh relationship to form.
 
@The Revolting Man, if we don't use the word "ownership", but instead say "authority", would you agree that a father is in authority over his daughter? If so, would you agree that a father who willingly gives his daughter to a man is willingly handing that authority to him? (if not, what is he doing when he "gives his daughter away"?)

I agree that he doesn't have to do so for a "valid one flesh relationship" to form - that's about sex. I'm entirely talking about this other thing.
 
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