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General Refuting 119 ministries' Unbiblical Anti-Poly Video

@PeteR Can you provide some background for those of us not familiar with 119? What's their story? I see some of you must be supporters since you saw the video before release.

from the video...

Some attempt to suggest that Paul’s words on righteous living in 1 Timothy 3:2 and verse 12 is referring to divorce—that is to say, one is to not be remarried following a divorce. However, there exists no instruction forbidding remarriage after divorce in the law of God. In fact, Deuteronomy 24 are the go-to instructions surrounding divorce in the Torah, and we find there that remarriage after divorce is acceptable. Paul is not adding to the Word of God (Deuteronomy 4:2). 1 Timothy 3 is not about divorce. In fact, according to the context, it should be strongly noted that divorce is not even mentioned in 1 Timothy 3! Paul was instructing against taking on another wife while still being married.
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Forget the whole polygamy thing, even if I thought polygamy was sinful I wouldn't pull kind of garbage. It's straight up deception. Most anti-polygamy preachers don't even go this far. What little of the video I could stomach was shot through with these sort of dirty tricks. Its all the worse when you realize his discussion of Christ's teachings don't even mention divorce.
 
For about a decade 119 has been VERY solid in teaching and testing.g the hard parts of the Word. Until this video, I would say I was in agreement about 95% if the time... nobody came closer to what I ser in Scripture.... I haven't been a supporter, per se, but have promoted much of their work over the last 8 years. During that time I requested to be added to their update/newsletter emails which led to seeing pre-release videos.

Months ago, maybe almost a year ago, they announced they were going to do a video on polygamy. I immediately emailed and advised they avoid the topic..... then, three months or so ago I heard through a friend of a post by one of their writers exploring alternate interpretations of Leviticus 18:18 and I refuted his post with a paper I published on my blog and emailed to him. Others I coordinate with did the sane.

We continued to hear promotional rumblings that the poly video was coming until last week when the pre-release version and transcript were emailed out. I watched it and was highly disturbed. I downloaded the transcript, contacted several friends including @Pacman and @Robhar and together we wrote the refutation over several days.

I had a burning urgency to get it done and then, soon as it was, prayed over it and emailed it to them late Thursday. Then, I was genuinely surprised they published so quickly on Friday... I really thought the survey they sent out with the pre-release was to test waters and fix errors. Instead, it was just a media hype move. Quite disappointing considering how much of a train wreck the video is theologically.

Anyway, I now consider that ministry compromised and expect the Almighty to come down on them pretty hard. They have taken countless people to task for twisting God's Word and holding to traditions and doctrines of men. They'll be judged by their own tongues and I am genuinely sad for them.

Confront them on Facebook and Youtube. .. they need to be held to the standard they hold others to...
 
I know some of you are disturbed because you held such high regard for that ministry. But I've never heard of them, and their take disturbs me. It's hit piece theology. It's the kind of thing you produce when you're looking for any and all reasons to not believe something; never stopping for a moment to consider maybe it's true. But worse than that, because their transcript is crafted to specifically deceive people about what the scripture actually says (and not even on polygamy, but to deceive them about the basic context and subject of passages discussed).

The person who narrated that video, are they the one who runs 119? Author tasked with that particular subject? Mere mouthpiece?
 
@rockfox this piece is decidedly different than their body of work, but yes, it is a deceptive hit piece that violates Scripture and many interperative standards. Very deceptive.

The narrator is one of the ministry founders and a familiar face/voice... makes it all the worse. Feels like a radical betrayal.
 
I used to regularly recommend them. Not anymore. I already knew long ago that they were against poly but they only had one 45 second blurp about it in an unrelated video. This video is terrible. And the handling of scripture is dangerous.
 
rockfox said:
I know some of you are disturbed because you held such high regard for that ministry. But I've never heard of them, and their take disturbs me. It's hit piece theology. It's the kind of thing you produce when you're looking for any and all reasons to not believe something; never stopping for a moment to consider maybe it's true. But worse than that, because their transcript is crafted to specifically deceive people about what the scripture actually says (and not even on polygamy, but to deceive them about the basic context and subject of passages discussed).

The person who narrated that video, are they the one who runs 119? Author tasked with that particular subject? Mere mouthpiece?
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I know that many of the guys have liked their ministry and approach. That’s fine, everybody do you. Personally, after going thru about 6 of their videos (back in the day) I found this approach to be how they present everything. Subsequently, I refuse to waste my time watching their vids, or attempting to help them “see the light”.

In this case, I do think that pushback is time well spent, as they have a large following of TO/HR people. Godspeed to those who are pushing back.
 
Remember to talk politely.

@Daniel DeLuca, I am singling you out here, but I'm stating this publicly because it is advice everybody needs to hear. I am very pleased with the enthusiasm you are showing to this cause - but very disappointed with the way you are choosing to interact with people on Facebook (I have not checked YouTube comments recently).

Comments like this are completely inappropriate and unhelpful:
That is an outright lie!
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Oh Wow! So you have to go outside what Scripture clearly states now! Typical anti-poly!
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This sort of thing just makes people more set in their opinions. The point of this whole interaction is online outreach. We are trying to politely and respectively get people to think more deeply. If you start criticising them, calling them names ("Typical anti-poly!"), calling them liars, this will destroy everybody else's attempts to actually bring them around.

Speak nicely, or stop talking and let other people do the missionary work. This also goes for anybody else who is getting riled up and I haven't noticed.

This is an example of why this is so damaging. Names changed:
Monogamist said:
It was not so from the beginning, are you saying YAH changed his mind? If so where was it written??
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Poly 1 said:
This is a parable compared to the Kingdom of heaven. Virgins (plural) and a Bridegroom (Singular)

Matthew 25:1-6 NASB
"Then the kingdom of heaven will be comparable to ten virgins, who took their lamps and went out to meet the bridegroom. [2] Five of them were foolish, and five were prudent. [3] For when the foolish took their lamps, they took no oil with them, [4] but the prudent took oil in flasks along with their lamps. [5] Now while the bridegroom was delaying, they all got drowsy and began to sleep. [6] But at midnight there was a shout, 'Behold, the bridegroom! Come out to meet him.'
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Poly 1 said:
2 Corinthians 5:19 NASB
namely, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and He has committed to us the word of reconciliation.
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Poly 1 said:
They become One
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Poly 2 said:
Dude! The "It" that "was not so from the beginning", was in reference to "Moses permitted you to divorce your wives because your hearts were hard." What is it with you anti-polys quoting Scripture out of context?
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Monogamist said:
Poly 2 I BEG your pardon Poly2, ...first of all, I am NOT..in ANY WAY nor form, a, ..as you you say,... "DUDE,"...I AM, however, on the contrary, a quite, mature, poised, wise and intelligent Women, Lady and Daughter of the Most High Elohim who deserves respect as an elderly member of the body of Messiah! I would kindly like to request that If you cannot bring yourself to address me respectfully, in further conversation, that you would please refrain from addressed me at all... Thank you for your kind consideration of request. Moreover, Poly2, I shall continue to remain opposed to the assertion that polygamy is permitted amongst those of the faith once delivered to the saints. This IS my position to which I am allowed by the giving of free will from The Almighty. Shalom!
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What an utter trainwreck. Here, a monogamy minded woman has asked an honest question. One polygamy minded person has engaged with her respectively and tried to have a polite discussion with her. Then a second polygamist jumps in with a rude comment that upsets her. As a result, she does not even respond to Poly 1, she just gets angry at Poly 2, and states now that she is completely entrenched in her opinions and will remain opposed to the issue. The hard work of Poly 1 has been destroyed by the arrogance and rudeness of Poly 2.

Colossians 4:6:
"Let your speech be alway with grace, seasoned with salt, that ye may know how ye ought to answer every man."
 
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FollowingHim said:
Colossians 4:6:
"Let your speech be alway with grace, seasoned with salt, that ye may know how ye ought to answer every man."
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I think of some of the comments that I've had on Facebook over the years and I know for a fact that there's been lot'sof times where I've been harsher on the screen then I would ever dream of being in person. I have gotten better over the years but I'm still a work in progress. FH the person who really holds me accountable is @Proverbs3.5 it is nice knowing that there is someone else, who is lurking in the shadows and is NOT afraid to call us out. I had an old friend of mine back in Portland. Oregon he's gone now, But I remember one time him coming to me. We were out doing Street Ministry. And because he knows me so well, he says I know what you meant, but that's not what you said and he explained the whole thing to me I was like, oh wow! I am so sorry. But that's how we learned when we have brothers who will hold us accountable.
 
FollowingHim said:
Remember to talk politely.

@Daniel DeLuca, I am singling you out here, but I'm stating this publicly because it is advice everybody needs to hear. I am very pleased with the enthusiasm you are showing to this cause - but very disappointed with the way you are choosing to interact with people on Facebook (I have not checked YouTube comments recently).

Comments like this are completely inappropriate and unhelpful:


This sort of thing just makes people more set in their opinions. The point of this whole interaction is online outreach. We are trying to politely and respectively get people to think more deeply. If you start criticising them, calling them names ("Typical anti-poly!"), calling them liars, this will destroy everybody else's attempts to actually bring them around.

Speak nicely, or stop talking and let other people do the missionary work. This also goes for anybody else who is getting riled up and I haven't noticed.

This is an example of why this is so damaging. Names changed:






What an utter trainwreck. Here, a monogamy minded woman has asked an honest question. One polygamy minded person has engaged with her respectively and tried to have a polite discussion with her. Then a second polygamist jumps in with a rude comment that upsets her. As a result, she does not even respond to Poly 1, she just gets angry at Poly 2, and states now that she is completely entrenched in her opinions and will remain opposed to the issue. The hard work of Poly 1 has been destroyed by the arrogance and rudeness of Poly 2.

Colossians 4:6:
"Let your speech be alway with grace, seasoned with salt, that ye may know how ye ought to answer every man."
Click to expand...
Yeah, I got a little war weary there, and it was late when I posted that. Trying to respond to these folks, is a daunting task.
 
rockfox said:
DD's posts on youtube were sometimes confusing and too frequent. Less is more. Keep it pithy boys.
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That is because I was trying to stop the video every time I came across something objectionable. As you can tell, I couldn't get through the whole thing. I have never found the time to create my own video to counter some of these, but this one would be a good one to respond to, because it covers just about every anti-poly argument I have ever encountered. GodRules has a popular YouTube channel, and he is pro-poly. I might have to see about getting him to review this one.
 
Daniel DeLuca said:
Yeah, I got a little war weary there, and it was late when I posted that. Trying to respond to these folks, is a daunting task.
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Thanks for taking that well @Daniel DeLuca! You are a very intelligent man and have made many excellent contributions to these discussions from a factual perspective, joining the dots well. If you could take this intelligence and package it slightly better, you'd be able to achieve great things for the Kingdom. It's good to have you around.
 
Over on YouTube, I've tried to cut to the heart of the matter and directly address God's love of women, rather than getting bogged down in technicalities. I personally think this would be a good post for viewers to see early on, as it is aimed at changing the heart attitude. Most of the other responses have been more technical, and these are good. But most viewers are not yet ready to engage on that level, and need to have a better view of the overall picture first.

If you agree, I would appreciate it if you would like and/or reply to this post. Enough interaction with it should make it float to the top so it is more likely to become people's first impression. Then those who wish to dig deeper will scroll on and see all the technical scriptural discussion.
People accuse the Bible of being misogynistic by supporting polygamy. You have accepted this feminist falsehood, and have then proceeded to reject the clear words of scripture in order to try and make the Bible a little more palatable to the world. This is a serious mistake. The Bible allows polygamy - but it does so FOR THE BENEFIT OF WOMEN! Through most of history there was no social welfare. Widows and single mothers are provided for by God by allowing polygamy. This ensures that every woman can marry, every woman can access the support of a man and a wider family. No woman is left alone. Even in the aftermath of disasters like wars, that kill many of the male population, every woman can still marry.

Look around any church, see how many single women are there. See how they would all want to marry. See how many end up settling for marrying non-believers as they see no other alternative, or remain celibate even though they really want to be married as per God's original intention for mankind! He does not want men and women to be alone - yet monogamy forces women to be alone, because there are not enough good men to go around (especially after war).

God allows polygamy because He loves women. He regulates polygamy in Torah because He wishes to protect women - all His regulations of polygamy are for the benefit of women (don't marry her sister to vex her, don't marry her daughter as that's even worse, don't neglect the first just because you've taken a second, etc). All of this is because God loves women!

To accept the idea that polygamy is anti-women and something to refute, is to say that the system God allowed and regulated to support women, is anti-women. It is to directly oppose the word of God, to directly oppose His provision for women.

When the Catholic church forbade polygamy, at least they established convents to give another option for the excess women that this policy would leave unable to wed. The modern Protestant church, and it seems the branch of Torah-followers that 119 represents, leaves them with no options at all. It gives them insufficient single Godly men for them to marry, says they can't marry non-believers, says they can't marry proven Godly men who are already married, and doesn't let them become nuns either. That's anti-women.

I'll stick with scripture, which gives every woman the opportunity to marry. Because God did not intend for people to be alone.
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FollowingHim said:
Over on YouTube, I've tried to cut to the heart of the matter and directly address God's love of women, rather than getting bogged down in technicalities. I personally think this would be a good post for viewers to see early on, as it is aimed at changing the heart attitude. Most of the other responses have been more technical, and these are good. But most viewers are not yet ready to engage on that level, and need to have a better view of the overall picture first.

If you agree, I would appreciate it if you would like and/or reply to this post. Enough interaction with it should make it float to the top so it is more likely to become people's first impression. Then those who wish to dig deeper will scroll on and see all the technical scriptural discussion.
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Nice one Sam.

For the broader public, they often get lost in the weeds of scripture. It becomes a "he said, she said" and they don't know who to believe. When you take it outside of that and appeal to emotion and logic (not in a misleading way) you can then work backwards to see scripture in a new paradigm.
 
Verifyveritas76 said:
I know that many of the guys have liked their ministry and approach. That’s fine, everybody do you. Personally, after going thru about 6 of their videos (back in the day) I found this approach to be how they present everything. Subsequently, I refuse to waste my time watching their vids, or attempting to help them “see the light”.

In this case, I do think that pushback is time well spent, as they have a large following of TO/HR people. Godspeed to those who are pushing back.
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Even though I really don't have anything to do with TO/HR, I feel compelled to respond. I recall what Benjamin Franklin once said: "We must, indeed, all hang together or, most assuredly, we shall all hang separately."
 
If I speak with the tongues of angels, but have not love.... if I have all wisdom an knowledge, but not love...

It profits nothing.

This is a hearts and mines campaign, not won with logic. Logic only supports the emotion... we must lead w love and compassion.

GREAT post, @FollowingHim
 
PeteR said:
If I speak with the tongues of angels, but have not love.... if I have all wisdom an knowledge, but not love...

It profits nothing.

This is a hearts and mines campaign, not won with logic. Logic only supports the emotion... we must lead w love and compassion.

GREAT post, @FollowingHim
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That kind of reminds me of that Logic thread that I started. I haven't updated it in quite a while. Now I have fresh new material!
 
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