Recently? No. My point was that in no way do I find those men credible to determine a canon for true Christianity.
Why do you think that the sealing of the canon has anything to do with the cessation of signs and wonders?
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Mark, the long and short of it...
- Thread starter Asforme&myhouse
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Recently? No. My point was that in no way do I find those men credible to determine a canon for true Christianity.
Why do you think that the sealing of the canon has anything to do with the cessation of signs and wonders?
To what men are you referring?
Hebrews 1:1-2 KJV
[1] God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, [2] Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
Where is the only place we can go to see what Yeshua said and what He commanded? How do we know that Yeshua is the Son of God and The Word of God in human flesh? Because of the signs and wonders He performed. How do we know that what His disciples wrote down is the Word of God? Yeshua told them that he who hears you hears me and then He performed signs and wonders through them. Signs and wonders did not continue in the way they did when the twelve were still on this earth. After John finished writing that was it. Unless you’re saying that signs and wonders continued unabated to this day. Just so you know, that’s going to be a hard sell.
Absolutely not, Scripture is complete. So you're take is the Apostolic gifts are completed?
No more Apostles of The Lamb, no more need for the signs of an Apostle. The Apostles’ ministry of the equipping of the saints continues via the written Word of God.
Well this certainly isn't a crazy extreme view. A lot of people share it. I'm.not sure where I am on it yet but I'm probably not far off from you.
Me and a friend fixed a chainsaw by laying our hands on it and commanding it to be fixed in the name of Jesus. It was witnessed by the owner of the chainsaw and one of his flock. The faith of everyone present was edified.
I'm far from claiming to be an apostle, but I will say that God has power reserved specifically for the faithful who step out in faith. Which is to say God can perform signs and wonders if He wants to; and He also wants to. None of us were in danger of hell, just a group of christians cutting wood for charity. I think most Christians see no use of power because the only way I know to use faith is to risk looking stupid. Without faith, we can expect no answer to prayer, how much less should we expect the miraculous if we doubt? And yet looking stupid is the great sin of the modern era. Christ has so few willing to be fools, how can He do anything with them?
Ephesians 4:8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.
9 (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?
10 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)
11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
This was part of the 5 fold ministry that Jesus gave after he ascended according to Paul. Now no one argues I am sure that evangelist, pastors and teachers are still in existence. I guess it is prophets and apostles that are on the chopping block turning this into a 3 fold ministry.
Ephesians 4:16 From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.
After explaining the 5 fold ministry Paul takes the time to explain how each is a part of the body and how each is needed. So by removing apostles you have removed part of the body. @Asforme&myhouse what is your take on prophets? Usually people try and take them out with Apostles. In the picture of the body Paul establishes both as a part, so carrying that picture forward did we lose 2 parts of the body after the canonization of the scriptures or after the disciples?
For Wisdom. So do you think we exercise our faith and grow it or only have the measure we were given at conversion?
When I say apostle I don't mean in the way of 'The 12 Apostles' but rather in an Eph 4 sense. These are the sent ones who go out and spread the good news and establish new churches. Today we call them missionaries. Same function. Just as necessary today as when Paul walked the earth. They are all around us today. You've probably met some. You just had a different name for them that didn't trigger peoples theological sensitivities.
Now not all do signs and wonders. But I've read many stories of such happenings from history and seen video testimony of contemporary signs and wonders. But most people don't see such things because they don't look or credit all such things as false. Nor would I expect such things in this country, being we stand condemned and suffer from the same problem as Nazareth in Jesus's day: unbelief.
Do you think God quit talking to his people? Like he only talks through scripture and not through an intimate prayer life or other people, dreams, events, ect...?
I told my mormon sis that their apostles were not doing what Jesus' apostles did....preaching a NEW KING and complete loyalty to Him.Yeah I don’t recognize the 12 mormon apostles either
They preach pay your tithes and your taxes and the mormon church even excommunicated a man for winning his case in court against the IRS.
The bigger the man made system, the more potential for abuse of power.
Amen and OUCH!
This^^^^^^^
Unfortunately the heresy of the single bishop model creates a hierarchy that is threatened by those gifted as both apostles and prophets. Most of these men are either incognito in their local assembly, or they are booted because of envy/jealousy by a man afraid of losing his position and livelihood.
Understanding the 5 fold ministry model is the best way to understand wife hierarchy in the plural home.
I’m still not following why you think the creation or sealing of the canon is associated with the cessation of the gifts. Though the canon was mostly agreed on by the mid 200s AD, the canon wasn’t sealed until after/during the Council of Nicea and wasn’t accepted as such til the mid 5th century. Then in the 15 -16oos you had them unsealed by Luther.
As to the Council of Nicea, I am not impressed by any of them excepting a few of the 300+ bishops that were assembled and that particular ecumenical council did as much to hamper true christianity as the fundamentalism movement did in the 1920s IMO
In the verse in question the word ‘some’ is added to make it flow in English. In other words, it basically says He gave apostles, prophets, etc. You just quoted an Apostle, how can you say that I’m cutting them out? We have apostles in the church, every time you open Scripture and read it, the ministry of the apostles continues to equip the saints. Missionaries do not have the same authority as the twelve, hence the title missionary, to avoid confusion. Same goes for prophets.
I’m not refering to councils what I’m saying is that the Holy Spirit stopped dictating the written Word of God. It’s finished. There is no need to add to the Gospel which was ONCE delivered unto the saints.
Hey man, post the video
Even in the Apostlolic era the sign gifts petered out (no pun intended) toward the end of the apostles’ ministry. People were being told to take stuff medicinally, people were getting left behind because they were sick. God was the one performing the signs and He stopped doing them and the apostles didn’t freak out about it, because the signs weren’t the important part. The Gospel is the power of God unto salvation.
An assembly of believers who have the written word of God, some elders and missionaries are operating in the “five fold ministry”.
I don't wish to rain on any of you guys' parade but you are incorrect regarding the terms "pastors and teachers" in Eph. 4:11. There is a rule in Greek gramma which shows that these words refer to one and the same person; i.e. shepherds even teachers. Just to clarify; there are evangelists and there are shepherds even teachers. That's two ministries, not three. Shalom.