Enough with your sacred cow tipping, we will have none of it! Lol
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Mark, the long and short of it...
- Thread starter Asforme&myhouse
- Start date
My Greek is really rusty but the conjunction used was kai which is translated to and so they are seperat. I hooked up the Strongs below to help.
https://biblehub.com/lexicon/ephesians/4-11.htm
And He gave ἔδωκεν
(edōken) 1325: to give (in various senses lit. or fig.) redupl. from the root do-
some τοὺς
(tous) 3588: the the def. art.
[as] apostles, ἀπόστολους
(apostolous) 652: a messenger, one sent on a mission, an apostle from apostelló
and some τοὺς
(tous) 3588: the the def. art.
[as] prophets, προφήτας
(prophētas) 4396: a prophet (an interpreter or forth-teller of the divine will) from a comp. of pro and phémi
and some τοὺς
(tous) 3588: the the def. art.
[as] evangelists, εὐαγγελιστάς
(euangelistas) 2099: an evangelist, a bringer of good news from euaggelizó
and some τοὺς
(tous) 3588: the the def. art.
[as] pastors ποιμένας
(poimenas) 4166: a shepherd of uncertain origin
and teachers, διδασκάλους
(didaskalous) 1320: an instructor from didaskó
We translated the word for for shepherd to Pastor and the word for instructor to teacher.
4166 poimḗn – properly, a shepherd ("pastor" in Latin); (figuratively) someone who the Lord raises up to care for the total well-being of His flock (the people of the Lord).
1321 didáskō (from daō, "learn") – to teach (literally, "cause to learn"); instruct, impart knowledge (disseminate information).
In the NT, 1321 /didáskō ("teach") nearly always refers to teaching the Scriptures (the written Word of God). The key role of teaching Scripture is shown by its great frequency in the NT, and the variety of word-forms (cognates).
I copied straight out of the Strongs the words translated to Pastor and Teacher. I checked the conjunction and read some commentaries just to make sure I didn't miss it and nobody shares the view that I can find that teachers and Pastors are both referring to the same office.
1321 didáskō (from daō, "learn") – to teach (literally, "cause to learn"); instruct, impart knowledge (disseminate information).
In the NT, 1321 /didáskō ("teach") nearly always refers to teaching the Scriptures (the written Word of God). The key role of teaching Scripture is shown by its great frequency in the NT, and the variety of word-forms (cognates).
I copied straight out of the Strongs the words translated to Pastor and Teacher. I checked the conjunction and read some commentaries just to make sure I didn't miss it and nobody shares the view that I can find that teachers and Pastors are both referring to the same office.
Just came across a neat thought that when translated back to Hebrew which a lot of people think the New Testament was originally written that these differences become even greater and more pronounced.
I might have missed it but do you still believe we have the office of prophet or no?
Just looked up Kai the conjunction between Pastor and teacher just to see how it was mostly translated. It is used 9314 times in the new testament and is translated as "and" 8,173 times. Below is a link to every time the word is translated in the Bible. In the Greek after doing more research it more accurately translates as "again" but that doesn't flow as a conjunction in English so the word "And" is used.
https://www.bibletools.org/index.cfm/fuseaction/Lexicon.show/ID/G2532/kai.htm
Of which the Gospel only comprises a fraction of the New Testament.
I did a quick search on youtube for giggles and found this guy pretty easy. I don't know much about it but I don't have a hard time believing as long as it brings Glory to God. Seems like this one did.Hey man, post the video
But you didn't look up the Granville Sharp's rule. The basic meaning of a word can vary considerably in a particular construction. Shalom
Ephesian's 4:11 isn't effected by the Granville Sharp's rule because all the words are plural.
Copied this off of a site explaining the Rule.
Now, what about Ephesians 4:11? This also shows the structure “The+Noun+and+Noun,” doesn’t it. The problem is, just as I gave a very imprecise version of the rule, it has not been disseminated with the care it should have. Specifically the rule only applies as long as neither noun (or substantive) is (1) impersonal, (2) a proper noun, or (3) plural (Wallace, ibid.). In other words, it doesn’t apply to thing A and thing B, to Bob and Tom, or to these and those. What about “pastors” and “teachers?” We have two plural nouns. Clearly the Granville Sharp rule does not apply to them.
My point being that if nothing was to be added to the Gospel then we shouldn’t have 3/4 of the New Testament in our canon. Just the first 4 Books
The ending of Revelation is also used to seal the canon by some. However that requires a massive assumption to extrapolate it beyond that particular book to the rest of the Canon. John lived for another 20 plus years. Was he limiting the Holy Spirit? Or just saying that it was important to keep that book exactly as it had been given? Moses does the same thing in Deuteronomy and no one throws a fit that we have another 34 books added after that to the Hebrew Canon much less the entire New Testament
Is it not willing to be fool's for Elohim or is it fear of looking undignified in front of other men. There's a difference. One is not placing The Father above one's pride and the other is is placing the opinion of man before Hassems will.
I think we need to look to Davids example when it comes to doing things others would consider foolish or indinified.
2 Samuel6:14-20
Meanwhile, David was dancing before Adonai with all his might while he was wearing a linen ephod. So David and the entire house of Israel brought up the ark of Adonai with shouting and with the sound of the shofar. But as the ark of Adonai entered the city of David, Saul’s daughter Michal looked out of the window and saw King David leaping and dancing before Adonai, so she despised him in her heart.
They brought in the ark of Adonai and set it in its place in the midst of the tent that David had pitched for it. Then David offered burnt offerings and fellowship offerings before Adonai. When David had finished offering the burnt offering and fellowship offerings, he blessed the people in the Name of Adonai-Tzva’ot. Then he distributed to all the people—to the whole multitude of Israel, men and women alike—to everyone a loaf of bread, a cake made in a pan and a raisin cake. Then all the people departed, each to his home.
David returned to bless his own household. But Saul’s daughter Michal came out to meet David and said, “How the king of Israel distinguished himself today, when he uncovered himself today in the eyes of the slave girls of his subjects, as any vulgar fellow would shamelessly uncover himself!”
If ax heads can float up from the bottom of the Jordan then I wouldn't put this beyond the realm of possibility. Plus I trust you to be a man of your word, but I would say it had nothing to do with you commanding it to be fixed. No where in scripture are we given the authority to command the supernatural to happen. Here's an example of the opposite.
James 4:13-17
Come now, you who say, “Today or tomorrow we will go to such and such a town and spend a year there and engage in business and make a profit.” Yet you do not know what your life will be like tomorrow. What is your life? For you are a vapor that appears for a little while and then vanishes. Instead you ought to say, “If the Lord wills, we will live and also do this or that.” But now you boast in your arrogance. All such boasting is evil. Therefore whoever knows the right thing to do and does not do it—for him it is sin.
If we don't have the authority to dictate what we are doing in our own lives, how do we have authority to command the supernatural? It's either God's will or its not. We can not exert our own will, then it's an attempt to bypass God’s wisdom and power which is sorcery, rebellion against The Father.
The other thing to do something in Yeshuas name is for lack of a better description a catchphrase or incantation in the sense of how many of our Pentacostal brethren us it. It means to act in accordance to His will. When a slave exercises his masters authority or Acts on his behalf it's done in his masters name. If a slave acts on his own accord but claims his masters authority he will have to answer for that. Even if it edifies his Master. So would anyone who claiming to be someone who doesn't know thems servant and uses that individuals authority for any reason.
Mark 5:30 (KJV)
And Jesus, immediately knowing in himself that virtue had gone out of him, turned him about in the press, and said, Who touched my clothes?
Luke 6:19 (KJV)
And the whole multitude sought to touch him: for there went virtue out of him, and healed [them] all.
Matthew 17:21 (KJV)
Howbeit this kind goeth not out but by prayer and fasting.
But yet Yeshua cast it out without praying and fasting over the situation. How? Because he was filled with the virtue of his own personal prayer and fasting. His disciples didn’t have enough virtue within themselves to do the deed. I submit that they later, with the empowerment of the Holy Spirit, built their virtue to where they were doing what he had been doing. They didn’t pray and fast for each deliverance needed, they “prayed it forward”. Prayed and fasted in advance.
Why is the church in such awful shape and why do we stink so badly at getting healings and deliverances today? Nobody cares a whit about virtue.
YHWH does give us gifts of healing at times, but it was His intention that it go beyond simply a gift here and there. That it would flow from a lifestyle filled with virtue.
Speaking as a man who has NOT arrived.
I am not all that and a bag of virtue.
But I am a voice crying in the wilderness, “prepare ye the way of the Lord”.
And Jesus, immediately knowing in himself that virtue had gone out of him, turned him about in the press, and said, Who touched my clothes?
Luke 6:19 (KJV)
And the whole multitude sought to touch him: for there went virtue out of him, and healed [them] all.
Matthew 17:21 (KJV)
Howbeit this kind goeth not out but by prayer and fasting.
But yet Yeshua cast it out without praying and fasting over the situation. How? Because he was filled with the virtue of his own personal prayer and fasting. His disciples didn’t have enough virtue within themselves to do the deed. I submit that they later, with the empowerment of the Holy Spirit, built their virtue to where they were doing what he had been doing. They didn’t pray and fast for each deliverance needed, they “prayed it forward”. Prayed and fasted in advance.
Why is the church in such awful shape and why do we stink so badly at getting healings and deliverances today? Nobody cares a whit about virtue.
YHWH does give us gifts of healing at times, but it was His intention that it go beyond simply a gift here and there. That it would flow from a lifestyle filled with virtue.
Speaking as a man who has NOT arrived.
I am not all that and a bag of virtue.
But I am a voice crying in the wilderness, “prepare ye the way of the Lord”.
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@Asforme&myhouse, thanks for the response (a few days ago). Obviously I see things quite differently, but I wanted to hear you out and be sure I wasn't assuming what you believe. And I can't argue with you, because you've stated your beliefs and your rationale and that's that. Thanks again.
My two cents:
I didn't believe prophecy or miracles were for today until I did (a story for another time, maybe a retreat), and I'll say this about it:
(a) I agree with what was said above along the lines of 'seeing what you're looking for'. If something happens, whether that's an epiphany of sorts or just having your attention directed to certain scriptures in a new way (or both, in my case), that causes you to change your expectations, it will change your perceptions and your desires and the-story-you-tell-yourself about what's going on in your life, and you'll start having different experiences.
Everybody here knows what it's like to have your mind opened to the possibility that our culture (including what passes for church these days) has gotten it dramatically wrong when it comes to male and female roles, marriage, and family. Once that happens to you, and more so as you go along, you can't "unsee it", and it changes the way you experience your life, both in your immediate personal experiences and in your indirect observations of other people's lives or pop entertainment. I offer that a very similar phenomenon takes place when you start to consider the possibility that the church has gotten some other important matters wrong as well.
(b) A point was raised above re looking foolish—this is the next hurdle. You cannot step out in faith without risk of embarrassment, and that shuts people down. In my experience, this is healthy, and this is what keeps us from being deluded into thinking that we have some superpower or have found some formula for 'success'. If you don't feel that sense of risk every time you step out in prophetic ministry or prayer for healing, you're probably doing it wrong, and in danger of sliding down a slippery-slope of self-sufficiency.
(c) I'm not accusing anybody individually, and I wrestle with my own demons on the daily, but it is a sad fact that some very selfish instincts often come into play here. Where I have seen the most amazing and otherwise-unexplainable (oh sure, it was just a coincidence, that explains it...) demonstrations of prophecy and healing are in the arenas of street ministry and wide-open worship. Too often we approach this subject like we're figuring out how a new power tool works so we can use it to accomplish our objectives for our own benefit, or to get our doctrinal ducks in a row so we can judge others. Put yourself in a position where it's God or nothin, and interesting 'coincidences' will start to happen for those who expect them to.
My two cents:
I didn't believe prophecy or miracles were for today until I did (a story for another time, maybe a retreat), and I'll say this about it:
(a) I agree with what was said above along the lines of 'seeing what you're looking for'. If something happens, whether that's an epiphany of sorts or just having your attention directed to certain scriptures in a new way (or both, in my case), that causes you to change your expectations, it will change your perceptions and your desires and the-story-you-tell-yourself about what's going on in your life, and you'll start having different experiences.
Everybody here knows what it's like to have your mind opened to the possibility that our culture (including what passes for church these days) has gotten it dramatically wrong when it comes to male and female roles, marriage, and family. Once that happens to you, and more so as you go along, you can't "unsee it", and it changes the way you experience your life, both in your immediate personal experiences and in your indirect observations of other people's lives or pop entertainment. I offer that a very similar phenomenon takes place when you start to consider the possibility that the church has gotten some other important matters wrong as well.
(b) A point was raised above re looking foolish—this is the next hurdle. You cannot step out in faith without risk of embarrassment, and that shuts people down. In my experience, this is healthy, and this is what keeps us from being deluded into thinking that we have some superpower or have found some formula for 'success'. If you don't feel that sense of risk every time you step out in prophetic ministry or prayer for healing, you're probably doing it wrong, and in danger of sliding down a slippery-slope of self-sufficiency.
(c) I'm not accusing anybody individually, and I wrestle with my own demons on the daily, but it is a sad fact that some very selfish instincts often come into play here. Where I have seen the most amazing and otherwise-unexplainable (oh sure, it was just a coincidence, that explains it...) demonstrations of prophecy and healing are in the arenas of street ministry and wide-open worship. Too often we approach this subject like we're figuring out how a new power tool works so we can use it to accomplish our objectives for our own benefit, or to get our doctrinal ducks in a row so we can judge others. Put yourself in a position where it's God or nothin, and interesting 'coincidences' will start to happen for those who expect them to.
The problem with this is that you're limiting the word Gospel to first four books and @Asforme&myhouse is using it to refer to the whole New Testament.
Believe me when I say that I am in the Father and the Father is in me; or at least believe on the evidence of the works themselves. 12 Very truly I tell you, whoever believes in me will do the works I have been doing, and they will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father. 13 And I will do whatever you ask in my name, so that the Father may be glorified in the Son. 14 You may ask me for anything in my name, and I will do it.
He replied, "Because you have so little faith. Truly I tell you, if you have faith as small as a mustard seed, you can say to this mountain, 'Move from here to there,' and it will move. Nothing will be impossible for you."
I don't know exactly what to answer you. I'm very surprised you would say these things to me. I don't know why the apostles can go around raising the dead, but I'm not allowed to start a chainsaw? Philip and Steven weren't apostles either, I don't think. And the gift of the 'working of miracles' is a gift listed in the bible.
This is by no means the only place or time where I have walked with authority in the name of Jesus, and seen the miraculous occur. I walk in it when a situation arises and I have the faith to move. I think sorcery is a bit far to take it. If I have the faith to believe that I can boss around a chainsaw, and Jesus has already cleared me to move mountains, I think I am operating well within guidelines.
I suppose I could have asked for the chainsaw to start instead of telling it to? It's just that I do like 10 times the business in deliverance, and I don't ask evil spirits to do anything, so whenever I use the name of Jesus and I'm speaking to anything other than God I suppose I get pushy.
Shoot man I just really hope you don't think I'm going around being some kind of witch. I purged my house and quit my favorite hobby ever to get rid of occult influences in my house and in my life. I'm really anti-sorcery
I should have been clear and stated it wasn't directed at you to say, just where your statements lead some people in the beleif that the authority they wield is theirs, because He gave them instructions on what to do with His authority. I apologize, if it came off as a reproach of you. I was in a hurry and the miscommunication is all on my part. Discernment leads us to know it its Gods will or not and we know it's not God's will for people to be possessed by demons.
Acts 19:13-16
But some traveling Jewish exorcists also tried to invoke the name of the Lord Yeshua, saying, “I charge you by the Yeshua whom Paul preaches.” Seven sons of a Jewish ruling kohen named Sceva were doing this. But the evil spirit answered them, “I know Yeshua and I know about Paul, but who are you?” Then the man with the evil spirit sprang at them, subduing and overpowering all of them, so that they fled out of that house naked and wounded.
They were weilding the authority as it was theirs. They were using His name as an incantation instead of declaring who their master was, their masters authority and their master will.
As for the chainsaw, ask it to start or command it to start. It's an inanimate object with no will. It can't deny or obey a command. It can't deny or refill a request. Elohims's will made it work for His glory. I beleive if you simply said its God will is for this to work it would have worked because obviously it was His will and He knew y'all needed to be edified for His glory.
Is this prophet TB Joshua?
I have no idea. I actually don't know anything about the guy. I m definitely iffy of posting stuff of people I don't know but I just wanted to show how easy it was to find stuff. Most of the stuff online is garbage but that is just a clever trick of the enemy. If we see something misused in the church we try to cut it out doctrinaly instead of using trying to use it correctly. That goes for everything from wine to Polygamy to Gifts of the Spirit.
If your trying to dig up dirt on the guy to disprove what I'm saying don't waste your time. I just picked a random video I found to prove that it isn't that hard to find videos of miracles. Are most of the fake? Definitely. Is this one? Maybe, I don't know and don't really care. My faith in miracles isn't hinged on seeing one done on you-tube and neither should yours be. I don't need a video of a miracle to believe what the Bible says about them even though I have been blessed to see many.
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I agree, it’s very easy to find this stuff. Miracles are no longer being done by God to bear witness to specific men.
TB Joshua is a false prophet. How do i know? He has prophesied things that didn’t happen. One of the biggest issues I have with the Charismatic Movement is how easily they seem to embrace false prophets and false signs and wonders. They’re practically swimming in false prophets. Mike Bickle says that eighty percent of dreams, visions, words of knowledge, and prophecies in the Charismatic Movement are false. YOU READ THAT CORRECTLY, 80%. That’s a lot of false prophets! Frankly, I think he is grossly underestimating it, I think the number is substantially higher than that. How can a Movement be of God that, according to leaders within the movement, averages 80% false prophecies, when God has a zero tolerance policy for false prophecies and false prophets?