Mark, the long and short of it...

[Asforme&myhouse]

Miracles occur even today, because God chooses to do them, but they are not done by the hand of specific individuals in same the way they were then.

Hebrews 2:3-4 KJV
[3] How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him ; [4] God also bearing them witness, both with signs and wonders, and with divers miracles, and gifts of the Holy Ghost, according to his own will?

Why does it say “them” and not ‘us’?

Speaking of the Apostles
Mark 16:20 KJV
[20] And they went forth, and preached every where, the Lord working with them , and confirming the word with signs following. Amen.

Are you saying that if we were more spiritual, we could walk in signs and wonders like the Apostles?

Are miracles done through our spirituality or by the will of God?

Are they something we work up to?

If so, wouldn’t they then bring glory to us?

Acts 3:12 KJV
[12] And when Peter saw it , he answered unto the people, Ye men of Israel, why marvel ye at this? or why look ye so earnestly on us, as though by our own power or holiness we had made this man to walk?

You cannot work up to miracles. God grants them according to His own will and for His own purposes. If God wanted to work signs and wonders like those in scripture He would.

In the last days we are told to beware of false signs and wonders. I believe the claims that we hear of signs and wonders performed by specific individuals today are these false signs and wonders that Yeshua tolds us would come.

Matthew 24:24-26 KJV
[24] For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect. [25] Behold, I have told you before. [26] Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.


False Christs (or false anointed ones). False prophets (prophets that prophesy falsely) Deceive if possible the very elect? These things sound like they are going to be happening in church... now look at the church landscape across America and the world.

Are there people claiming to be anointed ones? There are “many”.

Are there people claiming to be prophets, whose prophecies don’t happen? There are “many”.

Are there people claiming that we can find Jesus in the secret place, or way over there in a third world country? There are “many”.

Should we believe them?

 

[Asforme&myhouse]

@rockfox , going back to your statement about the need for signs in evangelism. Listen to what Yeshua says about this
Luke 16:27-31 KJV
[27] Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house: [28] For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment. [29] Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them. [30] And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent. [31] And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

One could say that the dead being rised is the greatest sign and wonder of all, and yet, it wouldn’t help. Again the Gospel is the power of God unto salvation. Is it by signs and wonders that faith comes or does faith come by hearing, and hearing by the word of God?

Romans 10:13-18 KJV
[13] For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. [14] How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? [15] And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things! [16] But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report? [17] So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. [18] But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world.

 

[Verifyveritas76]

Acts 6:8 And Stephen, full of faith and power, did great wonders and miracles among the people.

Acts 14:3 (Paul and Barnabas) Long time therefore abode they speaking boldly in the Lord, which gave testimony unto the word of his grace, and granted signs and wonders to be done by their hands.

None of these three men would be considered among the twelve “apostles” that walked with the Lord, and yet because they were full of faith and power, and the Holy Spirit, God granted to them the power to do miracles, signs and wonders. The time context is also about 10 to 14 years after the Jerusalem church began at Pentecost. If the occurrence of signs wonders and miracles was indeed to help establish the church in the beginning and only for a limited time, this event is definitely a ways past the grand opening.

Acts 19:6 And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.
12 men who only knew of the baptism of John, over a decade after the beginning of the church, who never met, heard or walked with Christ themselves,

Acts 19:11,12 And God wrought special† miracles by the hands of Paul:
So that from his body were brought unto the sick handkerchiefs or aprons, and the diseases departed from them, and the evil spirits went out of them.

 

[Joleneakamama]

We agree to a large degree with what you've presented @Asforme&myhouse
We have seen things that could only be described as miraculous, but don't believe all the TV evangelists are the real deal.

If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

I think this was prophesying the reaction of a specific group in Jerusalem to the raising of Yeshua/Jesus, but it is also true for others.

 

[Asforme&myhouse]

@Verifyveritas76 most certainly God performed signs and wonders through some who were not the Apostles, however this was all still within the time period that the canon of Scripture was still open.

Concerning the faith, power, Holy Ghost, and signs granted them, which of those things were of their own doing?

It was God’s power, right?

The Holy Ghost is God, right?

By whose will were these sign and wonders done, God’s, right?

And what about faith? Was it theirs, as in they brought it about? Or was it from God also?

Romans 10:17 KJV
[17] So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

Romans 12:3 KJV
[3] For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.

 

[Asforme&myhouse]

Some more Scripture that speaks to signs being for the purpose of God bearing witness that Yeshua is the Christ (The Anointed One)

John 10:25-30 KJV
[25] Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me. [26] But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you. [27] My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: [28] And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. [29] My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand. [30] I and my Father are one.

 

[Verifyveritas76]

this was all still within the time period that the canon of Scripture was still open.

I’m unfamiliar with what this has to do with anything. I’m open to info on it . . . . I am also extremely skeptical of the idea of sealing the canon by this particular group of men.

 

[Verifyveritas76]

@Verifyveritas76 most certainly God performed signs and wonders through some who were not the Apostles, however this was all still within the time period that the canon of Scripture was still open.

Concerning the faith, power, Holy Ghost, and signs granted them, which of those things were of their own doing?

It was God’s power, right?

The Holy Ghost is God, right?

By whose will were these sign and wonders done, God’s, right?

And what about faith? Was it theirs, as in they brought it about? Or was it from God also?

Romans 10:17 KJV
[17] So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

Romans 12:3 KJV
[3] For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.

So I wanted to comment on this separately from the canon issue as I’m unfamiliar with that approach and am curious of its import.

My understanding is that yes, it is Gods power, God’s faith, and the signs and wonders are God’s and every sign and wonder and miracle are to be for His glory. Contrary to the establishment position, I see nothing indicating that these would cease either due to a grand opening phenomenon or a closed canon phenomenon.

I have also not brought it into this conversation, but I have found credible accounts by the early church of these things continuing beyond the lifespan of the original 12. Which makes me think . . .. hmmm.

When I studied this a while back, the cessation view originated in the early 20th century as a (very poor) defense against the babbling phenomenon that was incorrectly labeled as speaking in tongues.

 

[rockfox]

In the last days we are told to beware of false signs and wonders. I believe the claims that we hear of signs and wonders performed by specific individuals today are these false signs and wonders that Yeshua tolds us would come.

Bad logic. Just because there will be false sings and wonders does not imply there won't also be true ones.

False Christs (or false anointed ones). False prophets (prophets that prophesy falsely) Deceive if possible the very elect? These things sound like they are going to be happening in church... now look at the church landscape across America and the world.

Are there people claiming to be anointed ones? There are “many”.

Are there people claiming to be prophets, whose prophecies don’t happen? There are “many”.

You say false signs and prophets will come. But this disproves your contention. For the church is given prophets for a purpose which is not yet completed...

Eph 4:
11And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
12For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
13Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
14That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;

So there must still be prophets, even though there are false ones. Just like Paul said false elders would come, wolves in sheeps clothing, yet true ones are still with us. Therefore the precense of false signs and wonders does not imply all signs and wonders must be false. Any attempt to label present signs and wonders as false, just because false ones are said to come, is without scriptural or logical foundation.

Miracles occur even today, because God chooses to do them, but they are not done by the hand of specific individuals in same the way they were then.

Does scripture foretell such a change? On what basis do you make this bold claim?

Luke 16:27-31 KJV
[27] Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house: [28] For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment. [29] Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them. [30] And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent. [31] And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

One could say that the dead being rised is the greatest sign and wonder of all, and yet, it wouldn’t help. Again the Gospel is the power of God unto salvation. Is it by signs and wonders that faith comes or does faith come by hearing, and hearing by the word of God?

First, you pulled that out of context of a parable, which was a message directed at the Pharasees about believing the testimony of Christ and foretelling His coming resurrection.

Second, your argument would be an argument against His own use of signs and wonders. Yet He used them. So too did His disciples after He left; in fact He foretold they'd do greater things.

Why did Christ say He did signs and wonders? John 8:17-18 They were the way the father testified what Christ said was true. (John 10:37-38).

Likewise the LORD testified to the truth of Paul and Barnabases message the same way (Acts 14:3).

So. Is there ANY verse in scripture which says that God would withhold signs and wonders after the Apostles? Is there ANY verse in scripture which says the signs and wonders were given for the confirmation of the written scriptures and the cannon? If if some scripture can be found, is there ANY scripture that indicates the other reasons for signs and wonders given would no longer be needed?

 

[rockfox]

When I studied this a while back, the cessation view originated in the early 20th century as a (very poor) defense against the babbling phenomenon that was incorrectly labeled as speaking in tongues.

That was the conclusion I came to as well when I first studied it. It was an overreaction against the false signs and wonders of the charismatic and Pentecostal movements. An over-reaction that created one of the flimsiest theologies (cessation) there is in the church today.

I also notice they tend to over-react so as to posit any 'false sign' as meaning it must be fake, not real. But this is incredibly ill advised for some are indeed very real. They just happen to have demonic origin.

 

[Asforme&myhouse]

So I wanted to comment on this separately from the canon issue as I’m unfamiliar with that approach and am curious of its import.

My understanding is that yes, it is Gods power, God’s faith, and the signs and wonders are God’s and every sign and wonder and miracle are to be for His glory. Contrary to the establishment position, I see nothing indicating that these would cease either due to a grand opening phenomenon or a closed canon phenomenon.

I have also not brought it into this conversation, but I have found credible accounts by the early church of these things continuing beyond the lifespan of the original 12. Which makes me think . . .. hmmm.

When I studied this a while back, the cessation view originated in the early 20th century as a (very poor) defense against the babbling phenomenon that was incorrectly labeled as speaking in tongues.

Which accounts are these? God performs Miracles today, period, full stop. I’m not disagreeing with that.

I don’t think that the concept of cessation started in the 20th century, this understanding of scripture goes way back. There is a common misconception that cessation is the belief that all miracles and the work of the Holy Spirit ceased after the Apostles. That’s not it at all, the Holy Spirit is very much at work. It’s the understanding that the signs gifts were given to authenticate the writing of scripture. God still moves and directs and operates in every aspect of our lives. The vast majority of the time we don’t even notice, but occasionally we do

 

[Asforme&myhouse]

Bad logic. Just because there will be false sings and wonders does not imply there won't also be true ones.

I don’t think it’s necessarily better logic to say that because there will be false signs and wonders it requires there to be real ones at the same time. We’ve already had real ones.

You say false signs and prophets will come. But this disproves your contention. For the church is given prophets for a purpose which is not yet completed...

We have the prophets in the written Word just as we have the Apostles.

So there must still be prophets, even though there are false ones. Just like Paul said false elders would come, wolves in sheeps clothing, yet true ones are still with us. Therefore the precense of false signs and wonders does not imply all signs and wonders must be false. Any attempt to label present signs and wonders as false, just because false ones are said to come, is without scriptural or logical foundation.

Maybe, maybe not. Can you give me an example of any true, verifiable prophets today? Apostles? Can you name one? Signs or wonders today?

I’m getting tired of hearing about all these apostles, prophets, signs, wonders, but nobody can name one for me. I’m not talking hypothetically here, if they’re a real thing, where are they? Somebody, somewhere should be able to give the name of at least ONE.

Signs and wonders are performed by the will of God, not the power or ability of man. God CAN perform signs and wonders today if He wants to. Can you point to any? Even one?

Does scripture foretell such a change? On what basis do you make this bold claim?

I don’t recall making the claim that scripture foretold this. If I did it wasn’t intentional.

First, you pulled that out of context of a parable, which was a message directed at the Pharasees about believing the testimony of Christ and foretelling His coming resurrection.

Did i change the context? I thought the context was obvious. The point Yeshua was making directly applies here.

Second, your argument would be an argument against His own use of signs and wonders. Yet He used them. So too did His disciples after He left; in fact He foretold they'd do greater things.

It would? How so?

Why did Christ say He did signs and wonders? John 8:17-18 They were the way the father testified what Christ said was true. (John 10:37-38).

Likewise the LORD testified to the truth of Paul and Barnabases message the same way (Acts 14:3).

That’s really my point.

So. Is there ANY verse in scripture which says that God would withhold signs and wonders after the Apostles? Is there ANY verse in scripture which says the signs and wonders were given for the confirmation of the written scriptures and the cannon? If if some scripture can be found, is there ANY scripture that indicates the other reasons for signs and wonders given would no longer be needed?

A specific verse, no. Looking at Scripture as a whole and in the perspective of the history of the body of Christ, I would say yes.

 

[Soldier's Psalm]

James 1:5 If any of you lacks wisdom, let him ask of God, who gives to all liberally and without reproach, and it will be given to him. 6 But let him ask in faith, with no doubting, for he who doubts is like a wave of the sea driven and tossed by the wind. 7 For let not that man suppose that he will receive anything from the Lord; 8 he is a double-minded man, unstable in all his ways.

God gives us a measure of faith much like he gave the coins to servants in the parable of talents. It is up to us to invest that faith and grow it so that we may invest more. Salvation is important but it isn't the end of the race. It is the beginning. After salvation we are servants given faith to invest in the kingdom. When our faith waivers we become like a sea tossed by the wind. At this point scripture says that we shouldn't expect anything from God. The state of the American Church.

God does not want his people to die after 40 years of going to church with the same measure of faith they were given at salvation.

 

[cnystrom]

None of these three men would be considered among the twelve “apostles” that walked with the Lord, and yet because they were full of faith and power, and the Holy Spirit, God granted to them the power to do miracles, signs and wonders. The time context is also about 10 to 14 years after the Jerusalem church began at Pentecost. If the occurrence of signs wonders and miracles was indeed to help establish the church in the beginning and only for a limited time, this event is definitely a ways past the grand opening.

There seems to be a little hang up here about "the twelve", as if there could only be twelve. There were a twelve, but nowhere does it say there were only twelve.

1. Paul was an apostle.

2. Paul was not part of the twelve.

3. Paul, even though he was not part of the twelve, was in no way an inferior apostle.

There is nothing special about the grand opening. Clearly Jesus could and did create at least one apostle after the grand opening (on the road to Damascus).

There is a theory that apostleship died out after the first century apostles were martyred. This is a theory. Scripture does not say so, but on the other hand no replacements were selected, and no one claimed apostleship afterwards with any validity.

The Mormons have 12 apostles, but I do not accept them as valid, and I do not believe they have the power that the apostles in the Bible had. If one of them raises someone from the dead I will have to change my position.

 

[cnystrom]

So. Is there ANY verse in scripture which says that God would withhold signs and wonders after the Apostles? Is there ANY verse in scripture which says the signs and wonders were given for the confirmation of the written scriptures and the cannon? If if some scripture can be found, is there ANY scripture that indicates the other reasons for signs and wonders given would no longer be needed?

Conversly, is there any man today who can claim apostleship? And I am not hung up on the word. Lets say is there any man alive than can claim that they are an authority on God's behalf and who can back it up by demonstrating God's power the way the apostles did? Who in history, much less today, claimed and did this?

It seems to me that there are only two possibilities:

1. We have them around today - Someone should identify them for us.

2. We do not have them around today - What is your theory why we do not have them? The best theory I have so far is that they simply were not propogated, but I am open to other ideas.

 

[cnystrom]

I have also not brought it into this conversation, but I have found credible accounts by the early church of these things continuing beyond the lifespan of the original 12. Which makes me think . . .. hmmm.

Another theory I have heard is that the apostles were able to pass on the power to others, but non-apostles could not, so assuming apostles were only of the first generation it could have gone on for two generations and then it would have died out.

Since it is non-Biblical I have no opinion on it.

 

[Asforme&myhouse]

There seems to be a little hang up here about "the twelve", as if there could only be twelve. There were a twelve, but nowhere does it say there were only twelve.

1. Paul was an apostle.

2. Paul was not part of the twelve.

3. Paul, even though he was not part of the twelve, was in no way an inferior apostle.

There is nothing special about the grand opening. Clearly Jesus could and did create at least one apostle after the grand opening (on the road to Damascus).

There is a theory that apostleship died out after the first century apostles were martyred. This is a theory. Scripture does not say so, but on the other hand no replacements were selected, and no one claimed apostleship afterwards with any validity.

The Mormons have 12 apostles, but I do not accept them as valid, and I do not believe they have the power that the apostles in the Bible had. If one of them raises someone from the dead I will have to change my position.

Yeah I don’t recognize the 12 mormon apostles either

I think one thing that is clouding the issue is the word ‘apostle’. Apostle means “sent one”. There were lots of ‘sent ones’ in the New Testament. What distinguishes them is, by whom they were sent.

In “The Revelation of Jesus Christ” we read that the New Jerusalem has twelve foundations and in them are written the names of the twelve apostles (sent ones) of the Lamb. Which twelve men were sent specifically by The Lamb, in Scripture? The eleven and Paul right? Matthias was selected by the eleven, and they numbered him among the apostles. It does not say that Yeshua sent him. On the other hand our risen Messiah appeared to Saul, changed his name to Paul and sent him as an “apostle” (sent one).

So when someone comes along claiming to be an apostle of Jesus Christ, I don’t believe them, because there are only twelve and the last apostle of the Lamb died around 100AD.

Apostles (sent ones) of the church? Sure i have no problem with Missionaries

 

[Asforme&myhouse]

James 1:5 If any of you lacks wisdom, let him ask of God, who gives to all liberally and without reproach, and it will be given to him. 6 But let him ask in faith, with no doubting, for he who doubts is like a wave of the sea driven and tossed by the wind. 7 For let not that man suppose that he will receive anything from the Lord; 8 he is a double-minded man, unstable in all his ways.

God gives us a measure of faith much like he gave the coins to servants in the parable of talents. It is up to us to invest that faith and grow it so that we may invest more. Salvation is important but it isn't the end of the race. It is the beginning. After salvation we are servants given faith to invest in the kingdom. When our faith waivers we become like a sea tossed by the wind. At this point scripture says that we shouldn't expect anything from God. The state of the American Church.

God does not want his people to die after 40 years of going to church with the same measure of faith they were given at salvation.

I pray often for wisdom and believe God is increasing it. That’s what the passage is talking about. What are you suggesting we pray for?

 

[Asforme&myhouse]

I’m unfamiliar with what this has to do with anything. I’m open to info on it . . . . I am also extremely skeptical of the idea of sealing the canon by this particular group of men.

Do you think the canon should be considered open to be added to? Like to add something written recently?

 

[Verifyveritas76]

I think I’m at the point where I’d say that someone who is actually doing these signs and miracles with Gods power will not be advertising it. If they are advertising it or self promoting their credibility is nill.

I am aware of several instances that I would consider signs and wonders (not done by me) that I have no other explanation for and am really not concerned if anyone else considers them credible. I know of no one today that I’d consider an apostle and am extremely skeptical of those who claim the title once I realize what one really functioned like.

I do know of several people in my extended family who have had life threatening diseases stopped (though the ravages weren’t reversed) thru laying on of hands and they lived another 40 years with the doctors being unable to explain it. I’ve seen several other members of my family healed of life threatening sicknesses that doctors and modern medicine had no answers for and now they’re good as new.

I have also witnessed men full of faith and the Holy Spirit, and have also experienced it personally, though in no case I witnessed did it have anything to do with babbling.

I have also seen in real time, fervent prayer, change a slam dunk jail sentence for a young atheist man into a $1500 fine just to show him that there really is a God who answers prayer. He’s no longer an atheist.

Correction on the last statement. The charges were dismissed and the lawyer fee of $3500 was changed to $1500