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Is the USA Babylon the Great? Should Christians leave?

FollowingHim

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The traditional Protestant position has been that Babylon (Revelation 17-18) refers to the Roman Catholic Church. But this doesn't really fit very well, given that Babylon is described as having dominion over the kings of the earth, while the Pope has no global political or military authority, and Babylon is also described as a major importer of luxury goods whose passing will distress the merchants, which the Vatican certainly is not.

But the USA seems to fit the description very, very well.
http://www.escapeallthesethings.com/ame ... -great.htm
http://www.beaconoftruth.com/babylon.htm

The only way in which it doesn't immediately seem to fit is that Babylon is "drunk with the blood of the Saints". But the USA's recent Middle East interventions in Iraq, Libya and Syria have all resulted in increasing persecution of the church over there, God may be attributing their deaths to the USA. And this could refer to a time of persecution that is yet to come.

I worry that too many American Christians seem to think they need to be praying for healing for the nation, be working politically to fix how the USA has fallen, or to just be building bunkers full of dried food and guns. These could be sensible approaches if the USA is just in a decline that is fixable. But if it is actually Babylon, it's decline and destruction are inevitable, not able to be stopped through physical or political action and not something God will reverse in answer to prayer. If the USA is Babylon, it's destruction is not something to wait around for. God has already given clear instructions on what to do:
Revelation 18:-8 said:
Then I heard another voice from heaven saying,
Come out of her, my people,
lest you take part in her sins,
lest you share in her plagues;
for her sins are heaped high as heaven,
and God has remembered her iniquities.
Pay her back as she herself has paid back others,
and repay her double for her deeds;
mix a double portion for her in the cup she mixed.
As she glorified herself and lived in luxury,
so give her a like measure of torment and mourning,
since in her heart she says,
‘I sit as a queen,
I am no widow,
and mourning I shall never see.’
For this reason her plagues will come in a single day,
death and mourning and famine,
and she will be burned up with fire;
for mighty is the Lord God who has judged her.”
Has the time come for those who feel called to Israel to go there, and for everyone else to flee to wherever they can?
 
I'm wondering a bit more about China actually. They wield great political power worldwide, including holding the bulk of US foreign debt. Also, their spending on luxury items has gone up drastically in recent years. Further, they have a long history of violently persecuting Christians.
 
Wow Samuel, I am known for the occasional anti-USA rant but bablyon? That is a perspective I never considered before.

Of course I always assumed it was Rome.

Hmmmm.....

Well yes a case could certainly be built for it.

But there is the seven hills thing.

Actually I am happy to leave Revelation 17 in the realm of the allegorical. Since many attempts to fit current events into biblical prophecy end up with the embarrassment of the analyst.
 
China hmmm....

There are a lot of colourful descriptions in Revelation 17.

But there is a religious element to the great whore, and I don't really see that in China.

Maybe we need to look for somewhere with a lot of churches, professing a faith, but known around the world for other things...
 
I was told, and it works for me, that the beast of Revelation is the world economy, this imaginary thing that everyone worships and looks to for salvation.

I'm absolutely with ylop about the allegorical.
 
I tend to be one who doesn't dwell too much on end times. I'm more concerned with what God wants me to do in the here and now, and if I am faithful in that then I will be right where he wants me in the end times. Maybe that will be already departed this Earth, maybe it will be somewhere safe, maybe it will be smack dab in the middle of turmoil. I don't know, but I do know that my own comfort and safety is not my higher calling.
 
I personally think Babylon will be the Great Babylon. There is a lot of prophecy to be filled between now and then and the world will look vastly different when the time comes. That being said, I do believe America and the west in general are in for some non-Apocalyptic judgement and that everyone should do all that they can to support Israel.
 
Israel's always a good long-term bet. They do have a pretty extensive history of getting things spectacularly wrong for long periods of time though and suffering God's wrath because of it. So while I agree we should support Israel, I don't think that means agreeing with every policy they introduce, lol!
 
I think America is certainly A Babylon. The spirit of Babylon is alive and well in America. In the same vein as "many antichrists have already come"; many babylons have already come. I don't believe believe America is the final Babylon, but I believe America's doom will be similar and is imminent so the distinction at this point might be academic. The practical Babylon of our time is America.

But I think each Christian should do exactly as the Lord directs him, when the Lord tells him to do it. Speaking personally, I would not set foot in Israel without God's expressed leading as I believe Isaiah 17 is imminent as well.
 
I have never been big on this sort of thing in the past, but have started to realise how serious the global situation is and couldn't help running into too many scriptural parallels. I'm certainly not out trying to distort scripture to fit with the present day. However I think it is prudent to watch the signs, and when they become rather obvious to act. And I think that is starting to happen. Obviously, many past generations have thought this was happening in their day, and the probability is that I'm just as wrong as they were. However it is still prudent to act. Had I been in Germany in the 1930's, saw Hitler and thought "he's the beast", and fled Germany to avoid him, I would have been wrong about the prophecy but still very glad I had fled. So in that spirit, cautiously having a bit of a look to see whether things do line up or not:

I don't pay too much attention to claimed modern prophets, but do pay attention to the scripture lining up with current events. Economic crashes are happening on a regular 7 year cycle, in September. Global financial crash in 2008, stock market crash in 2001, minor blip in 1994, Black Monday in 1987, the pattern continues further back... It just so happens that these crashes occur at the exact end of the seventh Hebrew Sabbatical year, the time for remission of all debts. Sometimes the crash is down to the day. This 7-year cycle is well known by secular economists also, but hasn't been linked by them to the Sabbatical year.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T5M7NngNW70

What is even more interesting is that if the Sabbatical pattern is repeating, the year of Jubilee, when land is returned, may be also. The Jews were given Israel in 1918 - the year after the previous Sabbatical year. If this was the year of jubilee, the Jews took Jerusalem in the 6-day-war exactly 49 years later in 1967, the next year of Jubilee. The third year of Jubilee will start this September, will Israel be involved in another conflict that returns them to more of their inheritence, maybe the Temple Mount, over the next year? Looking at the state of the Middle East that is entirely plausible, and would set the stage for the rebuilding of the Temple and further prophetic fulfilment.

What is really fascinating about the economic pattern is that the crashes are getting worse. We're due for the next crash, if the pattern repeats, this September. And the rumours are currently about the bonds market crashing - in other words, government debts. We've had the stock market crash in 2001, financial institutions picked up the slack. We had the financial institutions crash in 2008, governments took on their debt. If we have another crash, it will be governments defaulting on their debt. And that would likely cause a complete global shakeup. The US dollar is the reserve currency of the world. If America defaults, the dollar will be abandoned. This is inevitable at some point, mathematically. It will be replaced by something else, probably a new invented global fiat currency.

Other countries are already moving away from the US dollar, particularly China and the countries it has very large transactions with such as Russia. A new international financial institution has just been set up, the Asian Infrastructure Investment Bank, led by China and including most of the major countries in the world - except the USA who deliberately kept out of it. If the dollar falls, it wouldn't take much for this alliance to come up with a new global currency, either completely new or based on the Chinese yuan. And if the dollar falls, the USA will be economically destroyed, and such a major economic crash would inevitably lead to conflict, either internal, external, or more likely both.

Remember Babylon and the Beast are two separate things. I am not suggesting the USA is the beast. In Rev 17 we see that Babylon is associated with the beast, but the 10 horns / leaders who give their power to the beast hate Babylon. In my reading, the beast turns on Babylon and destroys it.

Not ancient Babylon - it's not a seaport, certainly doesn't rule over the nations of the earth, would take a massive global change to do so. Anything is possible in the distant future, but the distant future is not something for us to bother with considering today.
Not China - Babylon seems to have once been a religious, Godly city / nation that turned against "it's inheritance", opposite of China. But China may have something to do with the beast.
Not Rome - the "seven hills" in the original are actually "seven mountains / continents", which doesn't fit Rome, a different word was commonly used for Rome's hills.

From my reading of scripture and current events, I can see the following plausible next events. I am not prophecying this, just joining the dots into a plausible scenario. I'm not citing sources, this is my off-the-top-of-my-head summary of loads of stuff plus my musings:

September this year, international US dollar bond market crashes. Dollar abandoned as global reserve currency progressively over next year or so. Major international resentment towards the USA because so many countries had their national reserves in US bonds, which the USA has defaulted on, wiping out the national reserves of much of the world. Economic crash = internal hardship, rioting, internal conflict. Obama "just happens" to already have loads of troops actively exercising in the major problem states (operation Jade Helm), and these are used to quell the riots. Moves towards civil war, American troops withdrawn from overseas to fight internally. Abandoning Israel.

Arab nations unite and march on Israel while America is busy. Israel wins the war, takes the temple mount. Dome of the rock "accidentally" blown up in the conflict, temple rebuild begins.

Alternative global reserve currency leads to a global financial institution or nation with control over every nation. Founded by 10 principal leaders who give their power to it. This is, or is led by, the beast. This control is accepted peacefully, as a good thing. But the authority creeps. Global reserve bank leads to a global retail bank, which issues accounts to individuals, but rather than sending out new contactless cards they use the same technology as implanted contactless microchips for "security" reasons.

The Beast / China / Russia etc realise the USA is still dangerous because with the regular troops busy the only way it can influence global events is through its nuclear capability. Belligerent US leader actually threatens this over something. Beast launches pre-emptive nuclear strike to wipe out the American nuclear threat and ensure global security = final destruction of Babylon.


Now, none of that might happen. But, it's horribly plausible...
 
I think you have the right idea. My problem with America as the Great Babylon is that it does seem to be giving us a much larger historical and spiritual significance then we hold. That's really not consequential though. God has veiled the interpretation until the time is upon us. What is important is that apocalyptic prophecies do have immediate revelance for us just like they did for the early church under the persecutions of Rome.

The question about leaving America is particularly prescient. It has become a place, much like the rest of the west, where participating in daily life is almost giving tacit approval to the remarkably unGodly culture we've devolved into. How to separate ourselves from that and set up an example, to the extent our frail faith allows, of how we should live is the burning question in my mind now. Can I just keep attending my very nice Alliance church with my very good pastor who I really like? Isn't that just condoning the near heresy that they espouse though?

At the same time I can't forsake the body or isolate myself and family. Its a conundrum to be sure. Anyone have any suggestions?
 
Mmmm, we've discovered that being "churchless heretics" isn't really all that bad. Are there friends you could do a bible study or worship group with were you to leave the institutionalized church in order to still have fellowship?
 
Its nowhere near that bad ylop. I've been in 11 counties and 4 continents and none came even close to America but I don't want to get distracted. I don't know of anyone we can worship with in a bome setting but I guess that's what I need to be looking for.

I just read 2 Tim 3 this morning and realized for the first time its a prophesy about the church not the world. Now you can't tell me that prophesy hasn't been fulfilled.
 
Army Gen. Randy Taylor introduces his husband at Pentagon Gay Pride event

A married Army general on Tuesday introduced his spouse at a Pentagon event that featured lots of top brass, including Defense Secretary Ashton Carter as the keynote speaker.

What made this seemingly routine introduction noteworthy is that Brig. Gen. Randy S. Taylor introduced his husband, Lucas.

“My husband Lucas is sitting up front here,” Gen. Taylor said of the man in the same row as Mr. Carter, Army Secretary John McHugh and other senior officials. He said Lucas has subjugated his own career to support the general’s frequent moves over an 18-year relationship.

“We bet everything on my Army career,” said Gen. Taylor, whose 27 years of service spanned an outright ban on gays, then “don’t ask, don’t tell” and finally, the ban’s lifting in 2011.

Gen. Taylor was the master of ceremonies for the Pentagon’s 4th Gay Pride celebration that showcases a month of gay-themed posters and history.

A panel discussion featured a gay Marine officer, a gay Army sergeant who is a criminal investigator, a lesbian chaplain and a transgender, Amanda Simpson, who is executive director of the Army’s Office of Energy Initiatives.

She is the first openly transgender political appointee in any presidential administration. She was chosen for the civilian post, she said, because she was “the best person to do the job.”

All four introduced their wives, husbands, and, in one case, a fiancé before a filled auditorium.

Mr. Carter spoke of his commitment to equal rights, but gave no hint of whether the administration will drop the ban on transgenders and transexuals wearing the uniform.

“We need to be a meritocracy,” he said. “We can’t afford to close ourselves off to any body …. We must start from a position of inclusivity.”

Trained as an infantryman, Gen. Taylor is a communications and information specialist who deployed to wars in Iraq and Afghanistan. He is now assigned to the Army office of chief of information.

The Pride event kicked off with the National Anthem, sung by the Rock Creek Singers, who are with the Gay Men’s Chorus.

From http://www.washingtontimes.com/news...r-introduces-his-husband-penta/#ixzz3ccZj8mID
 
Awwwriiiight,

I get it, America is super-evil. But can you point me at a righteous nation that isn't actively courting the wrath of God? At least one of the teachers I respect has fled to New Zealand. Tell me true, though. Is that the haven for the people of God?
 
I appreciate these sort of threads, as I find them relevant to the times we live in. I don't believe enough people actually think about where we are in prophesy. I believe He gave us prophesy to be understood, and will reveal it to those who really seek, so they can be prepared for the times that come.
Many Christians take an easy out when I bring up these sort of subjects, and just say "God's in control" like that is a new revelation, or that such a statement of faith excuses them of having to think about any of it.

When I watched that documentary "The Money Masters" (available on you tube) it revealed a lot of Babylon's method of operation, and key players. What is really sickening is how many Christians have accepted this system, including it's evil anti-moral, antichristian mindset.

Because of my beliefs I would not consider that land of Israel a good place to go. Most remember Jesus standing over Jerusalem and saying "How oft would I have gathered you as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings and ye would not. Therefore your house is left unto you desolate" But I see that as a final conformation of the sentence YHWH had promised them for failing to repent. You can find that in Jer 7:14 if you back up to verse 12 you find YHWH telling them to go and look at what He did to Shiloh. You can read about that in the book of Samuel. As I understand it, God abandoned Shiloh, and made it desolate.

Now is the USA Babylon? I don't believe so, but I know of other Christians who do. I believe rather that we have gone into Babylonian captivity. We were sold into this system as children when our parents got us social security numbers, and indeed, this system wants to rule over every aspect of our lives. You have no freedom of religion when it comes to practice, only in what you believe IF you don't speak it where someone can hear you, and accuse you of intolerance. Children are tax write offs, and baggage. You are threatened with imprisonment when you reach 18 if you haven't registered to support this system. I hear people say we are better off then other nations, but I don't believe it. Here the people think they are free, and willingly accept the bondage, and support it!

This could quickly turn into a rant, so I'll stop now. I have hope because the same verse that foretold our present captivity also prophesied our deliverance.

George
 
New Zealand is about as moral as California. So no better in that respect. But Christians do seem to have more freedom of speech, and the police force is not at all militarised, they don't even carry guns at all unless responding to a known armed offender.

Given so many of the "elite" are setting up retreats down here I suspect that whoever ends up in charge of messy world events will have mates down here they want to keep safe so it will likely avoid the worst of the initial chaos. We are also more loosely allied with the USA than many other Western countries, including Australia, due to historical tensions relating to nuclear power, so again more likely to avoid getting caught up in things. But nowhere is a guaranteed safe bet.

We also have a very strong economic and diplomatic relationship with China. Which might sound bad at first reading. But this puts NZ in a good position to stay neutral and avoid destruction.

On balance I am more comfortable here than in the USA. Can't think of anywhere better anyway.
 
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