Titus 1:15 and polygamy

[MemeFan]

"Owe no man anything, save to love one another: for he that loveth his neighbor hath fulfilled the law." Rom 13:8

There are lots more like this. The rules around debt in scripture limit it heavily, essentially for the aid of the poor, and make it uneconomic as a commercial enterprise. I'll take the Bible any day over the economic theories of modern man.



Last I checked fully 30% of all corporate profits was in the financial sector. So yes they are. Literally even: in farming, interests costs on land are more than what the land will profit a farmer in capital returns.



This one it has....

"Do not charge your brother interest on money, food, or any other type of loan." Deuteronomy 23:19

Bankers are evil doers and should repent.

Your beliefs about usury fail both internal consistency inside Bible and consistency with reality.

Full proper words would be lending money at interest rate greater than zero. To shorted this I will use lending money.

Let's deal with Bible first.

If lending money at interest rate greater than zero is sin, what is punishment for this sin? And what is it's sin offering?
And if lending money at interest rate greater than zero is sin, then why it is allowed to lend to foreigners? So Hebrews aren't allowed to do evil toward other Hebrews, but are allowed to do evil toward foreigners? Why is so? What logic makes this command moral?

Why Jesus in Parable of Talents uses money lending as example how we should behave? If money lending at interest rate greater than zero is sin, then why it is this example? How can evil be example of good?

Why Jubilee for debt exists? If money lending is evil, then why this regulation exists? To make analogy with monogamy-only people. Monogamy is cool, polygyny is evil, then why laws regulating polygyny exist?

Now let's deal with reality.

Wage is payment for labor, profit for providing service/product and interest rate is payment for providing money. If lending money at interest rate greater than zero if forbidden, do you know what you have done? This is price control, with price of money at zero. Same price as air.

Only thing in practically infinite supply have price of zero. Does money exist in infinitive supply. Can it be made to exist in infinitive supply? O, yes. I didn't know you consider hyper-hyper-hyper-hyper-hyper inflation blessing.

Money is also asset which has opportunity cost. There are alternative usage of money. According to you, only moral usage of money is to buy stuff for me and invest in my business. If I have money and another family need home, only moral course of action is for me to buy house and rent family house. Is it evil to borrow money to family, so that they can buy house for themselves.

By the way, house is asset, as factory, as tractor. It it morally OK to buy asset only with cash, but buying asset with borrowed money is absolute evil.

In above example who is harm when buying with borrowed money? How money stops being good when used for lending.

Also, why do interest rate exists? Which natural phenomena creates them? Uncertainly and preference for now. For example, I have 10 bucks and want to buy ice-cream. You show and ask me for my money. What are my options now? First is to get ice-cream now. Second is to borrow you money and wait new year to buy ice-cream. Obviously, better choice is to buy ice-cream now.

In other to make it worthwhile ice-cream waiting, it not enough to offer me just return my money back. No, you have to offer extra money for me to delay buying ice-cream.

Banker can consume his million now. Or he can lending his million at 5% which implies than he could consume 1.05 million next year. If banker lends, then he is waiting to improve his living conditions till next year.

So, interest rate is cost of making waiting worthwhile. As such, is it part of human behaviour. Larger waiting period implies larger interest because people have to wait longer before they can improve their life. If interest rate is zero this implies than people are willing to wait forever till their money comes back because they are immortal with infinitive lifespan. Idiocy.

Another approach, also correct, is to notice that same thing is future is less worth than same thing now in our hand. Difference in this prices is interest rate. At interest rate of zero, it would imply that for person would care does he now possess thing or not. Again, total nonsense. Think, you buy car with delivery next week. Car which can get trashed during delivery and I can't drive has same usefulness as car in my garage which I can drive.

You aren't thinking what your Bible interpretation implies. And you also don't know economics.

Helpful resources:

Usury, Interest, and Loans: A Brief Summary of Biblical Teaching, With Bibliography

What you have been told is wrong.

www.garynorth.com

Historical Error #8: The "Christian Bible" Prohibits Interest, but the "Jewish Bible" Doesn’t.

Ellen Brown sees a distinction between the "Christian Bible" and the "Jewish Bible."

www.garynorth.com

Chapter 50: The Prohibition of Interest

The Bible does not prohibit commercial lending at a rate of interest.

www.garynorth.com

The Zero Interest Charitable Loan

The Mosaic law prohibited Israelites from talking interest on chartable loans to Israelites and resident aliens. This prohibition did mot apply to commercial loans.

www.garynorth.com

Christian Economics in One Lesson, Part 7: Interest and Rent

Not only does the Bible not condemn interest-taking on business loans, Jesus demanded it.

www.garynorth.com

This is great example of what I call Bible qouting. Biblical interpretation breaks economic law (all economic laws are laws of human behaviours) and results in total nonsense. Off course, author doesn't notice this and is convicted his is correct.

 

[MemeFan]

I believe I can make, and have, a pretty solid case that when the "nomos of man" (driven by the banksters/'moneychangers'/userers) "did away with" His Instruction concerning compound interest on dishonest weights [fiat 'money'] that the "boom/bust/collapse" cycle became inevitable.

There is a Major Collapse (driven by debt, and compound interest on it, which mathematically can NOT be "repaid") that - after about 80 years or so - grows exponentially to infinity.

The Yovel (Jubilee) was in fact a "Giant Reset Lever" instituted by the Creator.

If it isn't 'pulled' about every 50 years...collapse is the inevitable consequence.

Not only our Creator.

Ancient kings also had regular debt forgiveness action. It would stop infinitive growth of interest which is unpayable.

I believe this practice was stopped with Greeks and Romans.

 

[rockfox]

Your beliefs about usury fail both internal consistency inside Bible and consistency with reality.

Full proper words would be lending money at interest rate greater than zero. To shorted this I will use lending money.

Let's deal with Bible first.

If lending money at interest rate greater than zero is sin, what is punishment for this sin? And what is it's sin offering?
And if lending money at interest rate greater than zero is sin, then why it is allowed to lend to foreigners? So Hebrews aren't allowed to do evil toward other Hebrews, but are allowed to do evil toward foreigners? Why is so? What logic makes this command moral?

Why Jesus in Parable of Talents uses money lending as example how we should behave? If money lending at interest rate greater than zero is sin, then why it is this example? How can evil be example of good?

Why Jubilee for debt exists? If money lending is evil, then why this regulation exists? To make analogy with monogamy-only people. Monogamy is cool, polygyny is evil, then why laws regulating polygyny exist?

Now let's deal with reality.

Wage is payment for labor, profit for providing service/product and interest rate is payment for providing money. If lending money at interest rate greater than zero if forbidden, do you know what you have done? This is price control, with price of money at zero. Same price as air.

Only thing in practically infinite supply have price of zero. Does money exist in infinitive supply. Can it be made to exist in infinitive supply? O, yes. I didn't know you consider hyper-hyper-hyper-hyper-hyper inflation blessing.

Money is also asset which has opportunity cost. There are alternative usage of money. According to you, only moral usage of money is to buy stuff for me and invest in my business. If I have money and another family need home, only moral course of action is for me to buy house and rent family house. Is it evil to borrow money to family, so that they can buy house for themselves.

By the way, house is asset, as factory, as tractor. It it morally OK to buy asset only with cash, but buying asset with borrowed money is absolute evil.

In above example who is harm when buying with borrowed money? How money stops being good when used for lending.

Also, why do interest rate exists? Which natural phenomena creates them? Uncertainly and preference for now. For example, I have 10 bucks and want to buy ice-cream. You show and ask me for my money. What are my options now? First is to get ice-cream now. Second is to borrow you money and wait new year to buy ice-cream. Obviously, better choice is to buy ice-cream now.

In other to make it worthwhile ice-cream waiting, it not enough to offer me just return my money back. No, you have to offer extra money for me to delay buying ice-cream.

Banker can consume his million now. Or he can lending his million at 5% which implies than he could consume 1.05 million next year. If banker lends, then he is waiting to improve his living conditions till next year.

So, interest rate is cost of making waiting worthwhile. As such, is it part of human behaviour. Larger waiting period implies larger interest because people have to wait longer before they can improve their life. If interest rate is zero this implies than people are willing to wait forever till their money comes back because they are immortal with infinitive lifespan. Idiocy.

Another approach, also correct, is to notice that same thing is future is less worth than same thing now in our hand. Difference in this prices is interest rate. At interest rate of zero, it would imply that for person would care does he now possess thing or not. Again, total nonsense. Think, you buy car with delivery next week. Car which can get trashed during delivery and I can't drive has same usefulness as car in my garage which I can drive.

You aren't thinking what your Bible interpretation implies. And you also don't know economics.

Helpful resources:

Usury, Interest, and Loans: A Brief Summary of Biblical Teaching, With Bibliography

What you have been told is wrong.

www.garynorth.com

Historical Error #8: The "Christian Bible" Prohibits Interest, but the "Jewish Bible" Doesn’t.

Ellen Brown sees a distinction between the "Christian Bible" and the "Jewish Bible."

www.garynorth.com

Chapter 50: The Prohibition of Interest

The Bible does not prohibit commercial lending at a rate of interest.

www.garynorth.com

The Zero Interest Charitable Loan

The Mosaic law prohibited Israelites from talking interest on chartable loans to Israelites and resident aliens. This prohibition did mot apply to commercial loans.

www.garynorth.com

Christian Economics in One Lesson, Part 7: Interest and Rent

Not only does the Bible not condemn interest-taking on business loans, Jesus demanded it.

www.garynorth.com

This is great example of what I call Bible qouting. Biblical interpretation breaks economic law (all economic laws are laws of human behaviours) and results in total nonsense. Off course, author doesn't notice this and is convicted his is correct.

Lots and lots of words to avoid a simple command...."Do not charge your brother interest on money, food, or any other type of loan." Deuteronomy 23:19

And if lending money at interest rate greater than zero is sin, then why it is allowed to lend to foreigners?

Because it is a weapon used against your enemies.

There is a reason most Americans are impoverished. Debt is siphoning off all our wealth.

 

[MemeFan]

Lots and lots of words to avoid a simple command...."Do not charge your brother interest on money, food, or any other type of loan." Deuteronomy 23:19

Shortly said I haven't got proper answer. I have asked 5 biblical questions and got one bad answer in return. No comment was made regarding Gary North's commentary on Bible. No effort was made regarding economics.

What are your comments on following scripture:

If you lend money to any of my people among you who are poor, you must not be like a moneylender to him or charge him interest (Exodus 22:25).

So interest rates are forbidden for charity loans toward poor, instead for all. Rule which makes far more sense.

And this "type" of interprentation isn't so strange when claim is made than verse meaning something else, not literal meaning. And sometimes there are added additional imstruction not mentioned in verse. Why? Because otherwise you finish with foolisness.

For example, everybody has heard of "eye for eye, tooth for tooth". So if person A breaks person B's leg, then also person A should be broken. Only surgeon could claim this is justice because it means more business for him. That's way Jewish sages have always claimed it means "pay just compesation".

Interest rate will exists in Kingdom of Heaven. Source of interest rate is uncertainly in our life. And uncertainly exists became we can't control everything in our life. And similar situation will exist for people in Heaven. So only being who it able to control absolutely everything maybe be only one without requiring interest rate.

On all assets interest interest is applicable, except money. What makes money special?

@rockfox, @steve do you have million buck each to borrow to brother? I would return money when I get rich. You both require 0% rate, so for both of you money now and in distant future has same value.

See, do you see it another way this isn't good? Borrower gets all increase in business and lender no increase. Do you consider this fair deal and would Lord require who you to accept this deal?

And regarding:

Because it is a weapon used against your enemies.

So in essence, Hebrew/Christian supremancy answer. Neighbors are enemies who deserve, I will be generous, to be beaten and made subjects paying tribute. Is that how we are supposed to treat our neighbors? Or maybe with more love showing them with example how YHWH way is superior?

 

[rockfox]

If you lend money to any of my people among you who are poor, you must not be like a moneylender to him or charge him interest (Exodus 22:25).

So interest rates are forbidden for charity loans toward poor, instead for all. Rule which makes far more sense.

They were commanded not to be a money lender charging interest to their own people. Lending is, was and always will be a way to get something for no work, to rape the land and enslave the populous. You don't want it in your society. Money should be a form of exchange not a way to make money without labor. The world around us today well demonstrates the wisdom of that. Essentially lending should be for charity only. Scripture speaks of lending to help the poor, with many restrictions to make the activity uneconomic from a business sense. Plus the jubilees to ensure debts would not grow out of control.

IIRC Christ's commands on the matter eliminated the distinction between brother and foreigner on this matter.

 

[steve]

@rockfox, @steve do you have million buck each to borrow to brother?

You are missing the point.
“Neither a borrower nor lender be.”
It isn’t Bible, but it is closer to Biblical thinking than anything that exists today.
(Btw; it was Shakespeare)

The system back in Bible days just wasn’t built on borrowing. As a last-ditch measure, a man sold his future by selling himself into servant hood. Nowadays we sell ourselves into servant hood by becoming a slave to debt, which lasts longer.

 

[steve]

So interest rates are forbidden for charity loans toward poor, instead for all.

The poor were the only ones who borrowed.
Everyone else lived within their means.

I would imagine that anyone wanting money for a business venture took on a partner, rather than borrowing for it.

 

[MemeFan]

They were commanded not to be a money lender charging interest to their own people. Lending is, was and always will be a way to get something for no work, to rape the land and enslave the populous. You don't want it in your society. Money should be a form of exchange not a way to make money without labor. The world around us today well demonstrates the wisdom of that. Essentially lending should be for charity only. Scripture speaks of lending to help the poor, with many restrictions to make the activity uneconomic from a business sense. Plus the jubilees to ensure debts would not grow out of control.

IIRC Christ's commands on the matter eliminated the distinction between brother and foreigner on this matter.

You believe quite number of economic fallacies, @rockfox. At this rate till New Year I will be able to write course just based on your posts.

@rockfox, @steve
Have you considered than incorrect beliefs about economics are clouding your beliefs about Scripture? Another reason could be because modern monetary system and laws does favor bankers.

Woke crowds, trained to search for racism everywhere, can't fail to find racism/gay/trans examples in Bible. Wrong beliefs about reality do create wrong interprentations.

Labor theory of value, implicit in @rockfox's post was proven wrong by 3 economist in 1870s. It is now famous because it seems obvious and is popularised by Marxist. Marx did pick this fallacy from Adam Smith.

It is interesting how neither how noticed that banker can lose his money and that providing value doesn't require labor.

 

[MemeFan]

The poor were the only ones who borrowed.
Everyone else lived within their means.

I would imagine that anyone wanting money for a business venture took on a partner, rather than borrowing for it.

I don't believe it. Temples in ancient times did lend money and poor are/were bad investments.

Best investment and safest is lending enough to state where kings/politicians do have to return the favor.

Corporate finance people, type of finance which deals how to get most usage of money, have found that only two types of financing exists: debt and equity.

From persective of debtor, debt is cheaper and allows you to keep more profits. From perspective of lender, debt provides more stable cashflow and has higher priority in bankrupcy. Lenders seldom funish with nothing, while businessmen do.

 

[steve]

@MemeFan just out of curiosity, what was the dividing line between the poor and the people who you could charge interest?
What interest rates were allowed, was it a sliding scale?

 

[Mark C]

Shortly said I haven't got proper answer. I have asked 5 biblical questions and got one bad answer in return. No comment was made regarding Gary North's commentary on Bible. No effort was made regarding economics.

I've responded with Scriptural on several points, including the MOST important.

"Currency" based ON DEBT is not "money" - it's not even an honest weight, and it's not even LEGAL (Constitutional) - in what was once "America" anyway.

What are your comments on following scripture:

If you lend money to any of my people among you who are poor, you must not be like a moneylender to him or charge him interest (Exodus 22:25).

The word is 'qesef,' and it means SILVER.

You loan him a hammer, he returns a hammer, not ONE hammer, and a box of nails.
You loan him an ounce of silver, he returns an ounce of silver.



PS> North's commentary on Biblical economics was largely sound. But he Blew It on polygyny and marriage.

 

[steve]

MemeFan said:
if person finds some truth using his natural means, then this truth is always equal to whatever Bible says

I've responded with Scriptural on several points, including the MOST important.

 

[MemeFan]

@MemeFan just out of curiosity, what was the dividing line between the poor and the people who you could charge interest?
What interest rates were allowed, was it a sliding scale?

I would certainly include people barely able afford neccessitues of life. People unable to repay, so it would be form of charity.

Interest rate for commercial loans would be determinated by market. There is no central bank in Bible or fractional reserve system.

Also, money would be based on gold/silver which would produce light deflation year-on-year. Without state monopoly on money (again, not in Bible) money debasement would be avoided. So borrower would to have to return load using more money where each coin is worth more. Today, borrower return more money worth less.

This double hit (more money worth more) will only make debt affordable for high productivity projects (new equpment for factories) or war costs. There wouldn't be vacation debt and similar BS.

USA now has very very financialized economy. Sound money and banking would reduce financial sector by order of magnitude.

 

[MemeFan]

I've responded with Scriptural on several points, including the MOST important.

Comment was on my previous post whicg contained 5 questions.

"Currency" based ON DEBT is not "money" - it's not even an honest weight, and it's not even LEGAL (Constitutional) - in what was once "America" anyway.

I'm not enough familiar with Constitution to comment on this. Same with details how current banking system works. I would say that almost certainly you are right.

The word is 'qesef,' and it means SILVER.

You loan him a hammer, he returns a hammer, not ONE hammer, and a box of nails.
You loan him an ounce of silver, he returns an ounce of silver.

Uncertainty is source of interest rate. So it applies to every things, not just money. Think, tools, houses, cars are more useful now in our possesion than some time in future.

I borrow you my flock of 100 sheep for one year. When you return it next year I will receive 110 sheep. Interest rate: 10%. By the way, if you get 120 sheep 10 sheeps are your profit (120 - 110).

Hammer is a little special example. If you borrow hammer to neighbor and tomorrow you need you back you can easily get it back. There is little fear of loss. I would be completelty different situation if neighbor wants to borrow hammer for full year for his exclusive use and move to another country. Now risk if much greater, so you would now be justified in asking for more.

Also, hammers between neighbors are usually done under social logic (exchange of favors), instead of commercial logic (best deal). Asking for money turns social logic into commercial logic, so neighbors would keep interest rate at 0%

Greater risk or uncertainty causes greater interest rate.

PS> North's commentary on Biblical economics was largely sound. But he Blew It on polygyny and marriage.

Can only agree.

 

[MemeFan]

My last post got me thinking about one interesting possibly.

Maybe Lord wants to helping poor to be treated according to social logic. Loan is actually favor to friend which he will return later. That's way there is this rule.

Notice that verse says what we should do, not why.

 

[steve]

I would certainly include people barely able afford neccessitues of life. People unable to repay, so it would be form of charity.

So this is arbitrarily your opinion and has no basis in Scripture.

 

[NVIII]

I'm confused how this topic got on the subject of debt, but something for y'all who hate/fear debt to consider: debt is a law of nature, and not all debt is monetary but that natural law does govern financial debt as well. Debt is the force that drives all physical and spiritual motion. Without debt there is equilibrium. There must be an imbalance before anything can be set in motion, and the motion is an effort to equalize. God created out of a void. At the very beginning, He created light, and then the first debt by separating it from darkness. Darkness is the debt that light seeks to equalize. And in that, He established the first law and image which are the physical and metaphysical basis, respectively, for all that followed.

I figure you all are talking about unmitigated or irresponsible debt, which is still bound by natural law and will be satisfied one way or another, in these cases usually at someone else's cost, which is what makes it sinful, but just keep in mind that debt is what makes the world go round. We will always have an outstanding debt to love.

 

[MemeFan]

So this is arbitrarily your opinion and has no basis in Scripture.

Provide verse if it exist. I don't remember such definition.

There are currently two definitions used in practice. One is barely covering neccesities of live and second is person whose material condition are worse in significant way than average person.

Bible doesn't define every word it uses. Otherwise, it would have to contain 67. book: Book of Dictionary.

 

[steve]

Provide verse if it exist. I don't remember such definition.

There are currently two definitions used in practice. One is barely covering neccesities of live and second is person whose material condition are worse in significant way than average person.

Bible doesn't define every word it uses. Otherwise, it would have to contain 67. book: Book of Dictionary.

I’m just using the question to prove that your position is entirely your own. That it has no basis in Scripture.

 

[MemeFan]

I’m just using the question to prove that your position is entirely your own. That it has no basis in Scripture.

My position in this case is same as Gary North who has done more Bible based research.So you aren't going against me alone, you also have to defeat Gary's arguments.

I just prefer different methods because they came to me more naturally.

Also I know usury history in Medieval Europe. Church did try to forbid any payment of interest. It has failed because interest is emergent property of human nature and this world. You can't stop it, only force it underground.

It wasn't only idiocy they tried. So far, winner is forbidding sex while woman is breastfedding child. So men have hired maids to breastfeed children and to have fun with their wives. Now Church was forced to campaign that mother should breastfreed her children for decades.