Timing of the crucifixion and resurrection

[Pacman]

If I’m not mistaken, all four Gospels record the supper as being an observance of the Passover

You are mistaken. The last supper was the evening before passover.

John 13:1-2
[1] Now before the feast of the passover, when Jesus knew that his hour was come that he should depart out of this world unto the Father, having loved his own which were in the world, he loved them unto the end. [2] And supper being ended, the devil having now put into the heart of Judas Iscariot, Simon's son , to betray him;

John 13:27-29
And after the sop Satan entered into him. Then said Jesus unto him, That thou doest, do quickly. [28] Now no man at the table knew for what intent he spake this unto him. [29] For some of them thought, because Judas had the bag, that Jesus had said unto him, Buy those things that we have need of against the feast; or, that he should give something to the poor.

 

[Verifyveritas76]

Who is claiming a 13th passover?

The 119 ministries chart shows this

This is a common problem for Protestants and Torah keepers alike who don’t understand the exact sequence of the Passover week. Their chart shows the correct number of days to test the Passover oblation Lamb, but if Christ is observing the Passover oblation or meal (as the references below show) they have a very real problem with their understanding of the Passover week. Christ observed the Passover meal by eating of the Passover lamb perfectly on the eve of the 14th, and he became the Passover sacrifice of firstfruits which was killed on the 15th of the month. Priests only could eat of this sacrifice/feast which also included the new wine from the preceding harvest. The common man ate the Passover oblation on the eve of the 14th but couldn’t touch the new wine till Pentecost which was a common firstfruits sacrifice.

 

[Verifyveritas76]

You are mistaken. The last supper was the evening before passover.

There are two Passover feasts.
One that is priests only, one that is for everyone known as the Pascha meal
Also two Passover sacrifices and two sabbaths on the week of Passover except on extremely rare occasions.

 

[Verifyveritas76]

Matthew 25:17 Now the first day of the feast of unleavened bread the disciples came to Jesus, saying unto him, Where wilt thou that we prepare for thee to eat the passover?
And he said, Go into the city to such a man, and say unto him, The Master saith, My time is at hand; I will keep the passover at thy house with my disciples.
And the disciples did as Jesus had appointed them; and they made ready the passover.
Now when the even was come, he sat down with the twelve.

Mark 14:12. And the first day of unleavened bread, when they killed the passover, his disciples said unto him, Where wilt thou that we go and prepare that thou mayest eat the passover?
And he sendeth forth two of his disciples, and saith unto them, Go ye into the city, and there shall meet you a man bearing a pitcher of water: follow him.
And wheresoever he shall go in, say ye to the good man of the house,†The Master saith, Where is the guest chamber, where I shall eat the passover with my disciples?
And he will shew you a large upper room furnished and prepared: there make ready for us.
And his disciples went forth, and came into the city, and found as he had said unto them: and they made ready the passover.
And in the evening he cometh with the twelve.
And as they sat and did eat, Jesus said, Verily I say unto you,† One of you which eateth with me shall betray me.

Luke 22:7 Then came the day of unleavened bread, when the passover must be killed.
And he sent Peter and John, saying, Go and prepare us the passover, that we may eat.
And they said unto him, Where wilt thou that we prepare?
And he said unto them, Behold, when ye are entered into the city, there shall a man meet you, bearing a pitcher of water; follow him into the house where he entereth in.
And ye shall say unto the goodman of the house, The Master saith unto thee, Where is the guest chamber, where I shall eat the passover with my disciples?
And he shall shew you a large upper room furnished: there make ready.
And they went, and found as he had said unto them: and they made ready the passover.
And when the hour was come, he sat down, and the twelve apostles with him.
And he said unto them, With desire I have desired to eat this passover with you before I suffer:
For I say unto you,†I will not any more eat thereof,† until it be fulfilled in the kingdom of God.
And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and said, Take this, and divide it among yourselves:
For I say unto you,†I will not drink of the fruit of the vine, until the kingdom of God shall come.
And he took bread, and gave thanks, and brake it, and gave unto them, saying, This is my body which is given for you: this do in remembrance of me.

 

[Verifyveritas76]

John 18:3 Judas then, having received a band of men and officers from the chief priests and Pharisees, cometh thither with lanterns and torches and weapons.

18:24 Now Annas had sent him bound unto Caiaphas the high priest.

18:28 Then led they Jesus from Caiaphas unto the hall of judgment: and it was early; and they themselves went not into the judgment hall, lest they should be defiled; but that they might eat the passover.

This is not a description of a motley collection of common Jews, but the entourage of the high priest himself. The common Jew would have been feasting or asleep at this time of the Passover feast. These men are either Levites or of Aarons line (perhaps) but whoever it was was someone who would have been partaking of the Priests only feast of firstfruits later on that day on the 15th. Specifically the firstfruits of cattle, barley? and wine, not the common Pascha lamb killed at noon on the 14th, 4 days after they’d been chosen on the morning of the 10th.

Obviously, Christ has observed the common Passover feast 6pm to 9pm, went to the garden to pray 9pm to 12am, Judas shows up and takes him to be secretly interviewed by Annas and Caiaphas, then they take him to the Romans before 6am when his verdict is given. Crucifixion at 9am (along with beginning firstfruits sacrifices of which only a small portion is actually burnt up, the rest eaten by priests) darkness at noon, death by 3pm.

 

[Pacman]

The 119 ministries chart shows this

Look at it again it doesn’t show that. It shows the Passover being eaten end of 14th beginning of 15th...

 

[Pacman]

There are two Passover feasts.
One that is priests only, one that is for everyone known as the Pascha meal
Also two Passover sacrifices and two sabbaths on the week of Passover except on extremely rare occasions.

Scripture references please?

 

[Pacman]

Matthew 25:17 Now the first day of the feast of unleavened bread the disciples came to Jesus, saying unto him, Where wilt thou that we prepare for thee to eat the passover?
And he said, Go into the city to such a man, and say unto him, The Master saith, My time is at hand; I will keep the passover at thy house with my disciples.
And the disciples did as Jesus had appointed them; and they made ready the passover.
Now when the even was come, he sat down with the twelve.

Mark 14:12. And the first day of unleavened bread, when they killed the passover, his disciples said unto him, Where wilt thou that we go and prepare that thou mayest eat the passover?
And he sendeth forth two of his disciples, and saith unto them, Go ye into the city, and there shall meet you a man bearing a pitcher of water: follow him.
And wheresoever he shall go in, say ye to the good man of the house,†The Master saith, Where is the guest chamber, where I shall eat the passover with my disciples?
And he will shew you a large upper room furnished and prepared: there make ready for us.
And his disciples went forth, and came into the city, and found as he had said unto them: and they made ready the passover.
And in the evening he cometh with the twelve.
And as they sat and did eat, Jesus said, Verily I say unto you,† One of you which eateth with me shall betray me.

Luke 22:7 Then came the day of unleavened bread, when the passover must be killed.
And he sent Peter and John, saying, Go and prepare us the passover, that we may eat.
And they said unto him, Where wilt thou that we prepare?
And he said unto them, Behold, when ye are entered into the city, there shall a man meet you, bearing a pitcher of water; follow him into the house where he entereth in.
And ye shall say unto the goodman of the house, The Master saith unto thee, Where is the guest chamber, where I shall eat the passover with my disciples?
And he shall shew you a large upper room furnished: there make ready.
And they went, and found as he had said unto them: and they made ready the passover.
And when the hour was come, he sat down, and the twelve apostles with him.
And he said unto them, With desire I have desired to eat this passover with you before I suffer:
For I say unto you,†I will not any more eat thereof,† until it be fulfilled in the kingdom of God.
And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and said, Take this, and divide it among yourselves:
For I say unto you,†I will not drink of the fruit of the vine, until the kingdom of God shall come.
And he took bread, and gave thanks, and brake it, and gave unto them, saying, This is my body which is given for you: this do in remembrance of me.

Jump to about 46 minutes into the video... he addresses those passages

 

[Verifyveritas76]

Look at it again it doesn’t show that. It shows the Passover being eaten end of 14th beginning of 15th...

I must be missing something. This chart is the one I’m referring to from your post on the 2nd page of the thread. Last Supper end of the 13th/beginning of the 14th.

 

[Pacman]

View attachment 848

I must be missing something. This chart is the one I’m referring to from your post on the 2nd page of the thread. Last Supper end of the 13th/beginning of the 14th.

Yes you are missing the fact that the last super was not the Passover meal... I zoomed in to show you the timing they are presenting for the Passover... I encourage you to watch the video.

 

[Verifyveritas76]

Jump to about 46 minutes into the video... he addresses those passages

I don’t have access to good WiFi ATM, it will be a few days before I’m able to watch it. Perhaps you could give the bullet points as to how they get around Matthews account (26:17) beginning with the first day of the feast of unleavened bread, two are appointed to prepare the Passover, and when even was come He sat down with the twelve, followed by exposing Judas, breaking bread and wine, and when it was finished going out to the Mount of Olives.

Also Marks account 14:2 And the first day of unleavened bread, when they killed the passover, his disciples said unto him, Where wilt thou that we go and prepare that thou mayest eat the passover?
There’s only one day when they killed the Passover lamb, the 14th. Mark then follows with the story of the upper room, preparing the Passover, eating with the twelve, exposing Judas, breaking the bread and wine, and going to the mount of Olives.

Luke 22:7. Then came the day of unleavened bread, when the passover must be killed.
Luke 22:15. And when the hour was come, he sat down, and the twelve apostles with him.
And he said unto them, With desire I have desired to eat this passover with you before I suffer:

Lukes account is followed by breaking the bread and wine, exposing Judas and Peter, and ending with the trip to Mt of Olives.

Each of these accounts place the supper after the Passover lamb has been killed on the first day of unleavened bread and end with them at the mount of Olives where Jesus is betrayed by Judas and apprehended by the servants and guard of the high priest.
Leviticus 23:5 In the fourteenth day of the first month at even is the Lord’s passover.
And on the fifteenth† day of the same month is the feast of unleavened bread unto the LORD: seven days ye must eat unleavened bread.

 

[Verifyveritas76]

Yes you are missing the fact that the last super was not the Passover meal... .

Only according to them . . . . which fact is directly contradicted by 3 other accounts in Scripture. Which place it no earlier than the 14th day of the month.

I have no doubt that they have multiple reasons why they need it to occur on the 13th rather than the 14th, unfortunately for them, Scripture doesnt support that placement any more than it supports a Friday placement.

 

[Asforme&myhouse]

Also Marks account 14:2 And the first day of unleavened bread, when they killed the passover, his disciples said unto him, Where wilt thou that we go and prepare that thou mayest eat the passover?

Leviticus 23:5 In the fourteenth day of the first month at even is the Lord’s passover.
And on the fifteenth† day of the same month is the feast of unleavened bread unto the LORD: seven days ye must eat unleavened bread.

Wouldn’t that have the disciples asking Him on the 15th where they should eat the passover? In the video it makes a lot more sense. I don’t know if the video is completely right, but they seem to sort it out pretty well.

 

[Asforme&myhouse]

Only according to them . . . . which fact is directly contradicted by 3 other accounts in Scripture. Which place it no earlier than the 14th day of the month.

I have no doubt that they have multiple reasons why they need it to occur on the 13th rather than the 14th, unfortunately for them, Scripture doesnt support that placement any more than it supports a Friday placement.

Part of their point is that the Greek word used for “first” can also be translated, “before”, which may be a more acceptable way of translating it. This clears up a number of seemingly contradictory passages.

 

[Verifyveritas76]

As I mentioned earlier, due to a lack of bandwidth, I’ll be unable to watch their video to respond. That being said, each Scriptural author quoted clearly defines the day that this happens on as both the day that the lamb is killed on and the purpose is to observe the Pascha meal.
A revised or alternate translation placing it “before” the 15th would still not even remotely support killing the lamb on the 13th. Everything had to be consumed within 24 hours leaving them with an even harder hurdle to jump. . . or torture.

 

[Verifyveritas76]

An interesting synopsis. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Passover

 

[Verifyveritas76]

From the Jewish Encyclopedia http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/11934-passover-sacrifice
The Sacrifice.

The sacrificial animal, which was either a lamb or kid, was necessarily a male, one year old, and without blemish. Each family or society offered one victim together, which did not require the "semikah" (laying on of hands), although it was obligatory to determine who were to take part in the sacrifice that the killing might take place with the proper intentions. Only those who were circumcised and clean before the Law might participate; and they were forbidden to have leavened food in their possession during the act of killing the paschal lamb. The animal was slain on the eve of the Passover, on the afternoon of the 14th of Nisan, after the Tamid sacrifice had been killed, i.e., at three o'clock, or, in case the eve of the Passover fell on Friday, at two. The killing took place in the court of the Temple, and might be performed by a layman, although the blood had to be caught by a priest, and rows of priests with gold or silver cups in their hands stood in line from the Temple court to the altar, where the blood was sprinkled. These cups were rounded on the bottom, so that they could not be set down; for in that case the blood might coagulate. The priest who caught the blood as it dropped from the victim then handed the cup to the priest next to him, receiving from him an empty one, and the full cup was passed along the line until it reached the last priest, who sprinkled its contents on the altar. The lamb was then hung upon special hooks or sticks and skinned; but if the eve of the Passover fell on a Sabbath, the skin was removed down to the breast only. The abdomen was then cut open, and the fatty portions intended for the altar were taken out, placed in a vessel, salted, and offered by the priest on the altar, while the remaining entrails likewise were taken out and cleansed.

 

[Shibboleth]

I'm just your typical crucifixion on Friday guy. I guess part of this depends on whether the passover lamb is slain at the beginning of 14th, or at the end of the 14th (starting a new day in the evening is so weird...), but my understanding is that it's the later. In that case, I can't see any way that the "Last Supper" is the meal eaten after the lamb is slain. It could be considered a passover meal in that it's eaten after sundown on the previous day, and thus on the passover.

14th of Nissan
6th Day of Week
(Thursday sundown through Friday evening)

• Probably the Last Supper
• Christ's betrayal, arrest, trial, crucifixion, removal from cross, and burial.
• Passover lamb slain at end of day, before sundown ("between the evenings")
• Also called "Day of Preparation" either because most of the day is preparing for the slaughter of the passover lamb, or preparing for the following day's feast of Unleavened bread, or just preparing for the regular Sabbath.
• 1st day of Christ's being dead

15th of Nisan
7th Day of Week
(Friday sundown through Saturday evening)

• Feast of Unleavened Bread
• Both an actual Sabbath, and a day of convocation (High Sabbath)
• Christ lies in the tomb
• 2nd day of Christ's being dead

16th of Nisan
1st Day of Week
(Saturday sundown through Sunday

• 3rd day of Christ being dead
• Resurrection by morning.

I know some will complain this isn't "three days and three nights", but I don't see any evidence that that should be interpreted as anything other than idiomatic language.

the RCC Good Friday narrative

Since I know VV76 is big on early church writings, I found that, according to Justin Martyr, c. 150 (emph. mine):

But Sunday is the day on which we all hold our common assembly, because it is the first day on which God, having wrought a change in the darkness and matter, made the world; and Jesus Christ our Saviour on the same day rose from the dead.

For He was crucified on the day before that of Saturn; and on the day after that of Saturn, which is the day of the Sun, having appeared to His apostles and disciples, He taught them these things, which we have submitted to you also for your consideration.

 

[The Revolting Man]

I know some will complain this isn't "three days and three nights", but I don't see any evidence that that should be interpreted as anything other than idiomatic language.

Simple may be boring but it's frequently the right answer.

 

[Verifyveritas76]

Here’s some of the pro’s and con’s to the Passover week. Considering that Christ came into Jerusalem riding a donkey on the Sunday/First day of the week and thus this was the day that THE Passover Lamb was chosen

Thurs. night Last Supper/ Friday crucifixion Scenario

In this scenario, there’s too much time to test the Lamb, or the Lamb was chosen on the wrong day. This also coincides with too little time in the tomb.

According to John 12:1 this scenario puts Jesus traveling from Jericho area to Bethany (Lazarus’ house) on the Sabbath day.

According to Marks account, Joseph of Arimathea approaches Pilate when “even was come” 6pm to beg the body of Christ. Pilate delays answering until he receives an accounting from the Centurion that Christ is in fact dead. After the Centurion reports in, Pilate grants Joseph’s request. Joseph then purchases fine linen, wraps him in it and bury’s his body in the tomb. Point being that no one would have been open for business either the Friday or Saturday.

The women leave to buy spices, prepare them and by the time they were prepared, it was too late to anoint the body before the Sabbath. Obviously a Fri/Sat scenario they would be unable to buy them on either day. The Friday would be a High Sabbath and the Saturday would be a normal Sabbath. There would be no time to buy or to prepare them before dawn on Sunday morning.

Likewise with a Tues night Last Supper/ Wednesday crucifixion Scenario

In this Scenario, there’s too little time to test the Lamb, or the Lamb has been chosen on the wrong day. This also coincides with too much time in the tomb.

Observing the Passover on the 13th eve (Tues night) presents a problem with the lunar calendar for counting the days for the Mo’ed.

According to John 12:1 this scenario puts Jesus traveling from Jericho area to Bethany on a Thursday and entering Jerusalem on either a Friday or Saturday, not Sunday, creating a problem with the Passover picture.

There is also the issue of the priests who are worried that if they allow Jesus and Lazarus to live that they will lose their place because all men would go out after Him. This part of the story plays a very important part in the timeline.

There is also the issue of the women preparing spices and having to wait to anoint the body because of the Sabbath. In a Tues/Wed scenario, Christ is buried on Wed. Eve. This gives the women two days to prepare the spices and anoint the body before they have to wait for the Sabbath.