• Biblical Families is not a dating website. It is a forum to discuss issues relating to marriage and the Bible, and to offer guidance and support, not to find a wife. Click here for more information.

Timing of the crucifixion and resurrection

Something else to factor in is the issue of the Passover is to be observed on the eve of the 14th of Nisan. So if the day begins at even (on Tuesday) and ends at even (on Wednesday the 14th). When do you actually eat the Passover?

I’ll look for my notes on this but found in one of the Talmud’s (I believe) a discussion about the Passover lamb. In it, they said that the Lamb is to be killed at noon on the 14th day, prepared between 12 and 3, begin cooking at 3 so that it would be ready to eat at even (about 6). This would eliminate a Tuesday observance of the Passover Supper if the 14th fell on a Wednesday.
This is also confirmed in Exodus 12:6 which states And ye shall keep it up until the fourteenth†day of the same month: and the whole assembly of the congregation of Israel shall kill it in the evening.

This is also confirmed when studying the First Passover. Numbers 33:3,4. And they departed from Rameses in the first month, on the fifteenth†day of the first month; on the morrow after the Passover the children of Israel went out with an high hand in the sight of all the Egyptians.

The meal was eaten in the evening of the 14th, that night the death angel passes over and kills the firstborn. Moses and Aaron are apparently summoned to the palace and told to leave Egypt in the middle of the night. The Israelites pack everything and leave in a hurry approximately 3 -6 pm on the 15th day per Exodus 12:14-19, 39-42. This day becomes a High Sabbath specifically because the same day they enter Egypt is the “self same day” that they leave Egypt 430 years later. It also becomes known as the High Sabbath day of Readiness or Preparation, not because they were ready, but because they should have been ready to leave. Verse 39 . . . because they were thrust out of Egypt, and could not tarry, neither had they prepared for themselves any victual.
 
Ancient Paths said:
New2Torah.com 's Easter Fraud Chart is helpful...

http://www.new2torah.com/2011/04/easter-fraud-chart/
Click to expand...

The only problem with his chart is it begins with a Tuesday evening (13th) Passover meal. There’s not enough time to inspect the lamb which was chosen before noon on the 10th. Thats only 3 days inspection instead of the required 4 days of inspection.

A Tuesday the 13th observance of the Passover meal would also create a gap in the Exodus narrative of an entire day thats missing between the meal on the eve of the 13th and the Exodus on the eve of the 15th.

Also according to John 12:1 6 days before Passover he came to Bethany for supper with Lazarus and his sister and then assumably stays over for the weekly Sabbath when all the people come out to see them and the priests complain about the whole world going out to see him. A Tuesday Passover would place his entrance into the city riding the donkey on the Sabbath or possibly a Friday instead of a Sunday.
 
Ancient Paths said:
Yeshua/Jesus kept the 14th then became the paschal lamb on the 15th for the people. this explains how He could 'earnestly long to eat this Passover' with the disciples, while still being the Passover for the people.
Click to expand...
This is typically a very misunderstood aspect of the Passover. Passover began on the evening of the 14th day which was also the evening or the beginning of the 15th day.

Another misunderstanding is that there was only one Passover sacrifice. In reality, the Passover sacrifice was a 5 part sacrifice known by two names, the zebach and the minchah. These translate into English as the Sacrifice and the Oblation respectively. The Oblation was comprised of the meat offering and the drink offering otherwise known as the Paschal supper. The Sacrifice was comprised of three offerings or sacrifices that were the Sin offering, the Burnt offering, and the Trespass offering or the Peace offering. The Oblation was to be partaken of the night before the day the Sacrifice was offered, but both had to be done within a 24hr period and the 3 offerings of the zebach had to be offered at the same place and time.

The Oblation was to be eaten the evening of the 14th and the Sacrifice offered and completed before evening on the 15th.
Christ ate the lamb of the oblation and died as the lamb of the Sin offering.

Ever wonder why Scripture records the conversation between Christ and the two thieves? The answer is in understanding the offerings of the zebach.
 
ZecAustin said:
Where is that @IshChayil when we need him? It would interesting to hear his take on it although I'm pretty sure @Ancient Paths has it right. This is one of those things that have always give me a case of the chap.
Click to expand...
Sorry Zec things have been a little bit crazy I'll try to get to this today.
 
Something else that muddies the waters is the passage that talks about rising after the third day in contrast to rising on or with the third day.

The vast majority of the passages record that Christ would rise on the third day not after. There are only one or possibly two passages that are translated as after the third day. In each case, the word after is translated from the Greek word “meta” which means on, of, with or after. IMO, and in consideration of a huge percentage of other Scriptural witnesses and later historical witnesses, the passage should have been “that he would rise with the third day” (with the dawn). The same issue is found in John 20:26 where it should be “And with the eighth day . . . “ not after eight days.

This would also match the Exodus account as well. The last of the Israelites came up out of the water as dawn was breaking on the morning of the third day of the Exodus. Exodus 14:27 And Moses stretched forth his hand over the sea, and the sea returned to his strength when the morning appeared;

If the timing of the Exodus matched the dates/days of the week when compared to the Crucifixion, the Israelites would have been standing on the shore as the eighth day of the Passover dawned and it would have been an entirely new beginning for a nation.

Per Numbers 33, they leave Ramses on the afternoon/evening of the 15th, lets just say Thursday, and encamp that evening at Succoth, leave there Friday morning and encamp Friday night at Etham, leave there Saturday morning and encamp Saturday night at Pi-hahiroth. Cross all Saturday night and are watching from the shore as the morning appeared, a living witness to the resurrection of a nation from death to life.
 
Another interesting view of the translators perspective is how they treat/translate this same type of scenario in the Old Testament

2 Chronicles 10:5. And he said unto them, Come again unto me after three days. And the people departed.
2 Chronicles 10:12. So Jeroboam and all the people came to Rehoboam on the third day, as the king bade, saying, Come again to me on the third day.
 
IshChayil said:
Sorry Zec things have been a little bit crazy I'll try to get to this today.
Click to expand...
Good because I think things are starting to get a little confused. Something may be getting conflated with some other things. I'm not sure though as I'm still so.new to this. It just sounds more complicated here then when I read it in scripture.
 
OK I found this thread again. Zek and I had both lost it.

I had lost this thread when I finally had a moment to breath.
Anyway I gave a sermon on this maybe 9 months ago or so.
There are so many opinions about which day it was. So I worked backwards based on his birthday.
After researching I was convinced by what some scholars claim is the "Real Christmas" September 11, 3 B.C.
The scholarship addresses the astral prophecy in Revelation; there is little dispute that there are cosmological events involved regarding the woman in travail.
Anyway, based on the Jewish zodiac from that time, these events all happen within a 90 minute window on one day and that day is Sept. 11, 3 B.C.
Assuming Yeshua began His ministry when he was 30, and that the ministry went on for a complete Torah cycle (in those days a bit over 3 years was the cycle), and assuming it's true what is written in the Talmud tractate Yoma that 40 years before the temple was destroyed certain miracles stopped happening which had previously confirmed G-d's acceptance of the sacrifice (why would He accept it after the Messiah's death), I was able to pin point down the day of crucifiction to be Thursday. I think I called my sermon "Good Thursday". Now I'm not certain of these things; it can be quite mind-numbing processing all the information and arguments about which day ,and was it the holiday which counted as a sabbath, etc. There are good points on the other side.
I just feel quite confidence about the September 11, 3 BC date.
Working forward from that date and coordinating things with the Talmud I think Thursday is fairly solid. Another nicety about the September 11 birthday is it puts his birth within the High Holiday season.
One scholar was adamant that it lines up with Rosh Hoshannah but when I tried to confirm this based on the current predictive calendar system I kept getting Tishrei 2. For some time I have taught that it made sense for him to be born on Sukkoth (Feast of Tabernacles) and that this is why there was a "hut" outside for Mariam and Yoseph to sleep in. There weren't mangers in Israel but there sure would be Sukahs on this holiday. Also it meshes well for my understanding of the Gospel of John where the Greek language describing how Yeshua dwelled with us, I'm sure you have heard means something like "spread his tent with us".
ANyway, definitely within the high holidays ballpark figure for his birth. A nicety about Rosh Hoshannah for a birthday is the whole jJust as the first man brought in sin Yeshua a man took it out. The sages teach that Rosh Hoshannah is the birthday of MAN, i.e. Adam rishon, so it fits nicely if it's also the birthday of the 2nd super important man, the one who takes away the sin of the world.
I'm fine with either Rosh Hoshannah or Sukkoth for a birthday time for the real Christmas.

I know I didn't post support for this stuff, get googling folks!
 
Screenshot_20190322-223928.jpg

Found this one last night from 119 ministries. Took a screen shot from their video.
 
That’s how I’ve seen it also. That particular Thursday was an additional Saboth. In fact, I think @Verifyveritas76 showed me that when we had dinner together.
 
Pacman said:
View attachment 847

Found this one last night from 119 ministries. Took a screen shot from their video.
Click to expand...
I just read Luke’s account and it doesn’t seem to fit with the chart. Jesus said he was resurrected on the third day. The chart would have him rising on the fourth day. And I’m confused about the last super, which meal was that again? In Luke it sounds like they ate the feast of unleavened bread. Which in the chart shows as being after Christ’s death.
 
Asforme&myhouse said:
I just read Luke’s account and it doesn’t seem to fit with the chart. Jesus said he was resurrected on the third day. The chart would have him rising on the fourth day. And I’m confused about the last super, which meal was that again? In Luke it sounds like they ate the feast of unleavened bread. Which in the chart shows as being after Christ’s death.
Click to expand...

They address those discrepancies in the video... and basically it boils down to they aren’t a discrepancy except in the English translations... I had the same problem when I looked at it. I’m not necessarily saying they are 100% correct but they certainly explain it better than any one I have seen.

 
If I’m not mistaken, all four Gospels record the supper as being an observance of the Passover which was never on the evening of the 13th. It always began the evening of the 14th and finished the evening of the 15th.

Numbers 33:3
And they departed from Rameses in the first month, on the fifteenth†day of the first month; on the morrow after the passover the children of Israel went out with an high hand in the sight of all the Egyptians.

If the Passover was observed the evening of the 13th, the morrow after the Passover would be the 14th not the 15th. Which would necessitate and additional 24 hour period in Egypt that is not accounted for in the Exodus. According to the Exodus 12 account, this is impossible. Three times it is recorded as the selfsame day. It became known as the Preparation day because they were thrust out unprepared after Moses had instructed them to be prepared against that day. Because they were unprepared, they had to bundle their unleavened bread in the troughs and leave by the evening of the 15th

Both Matthew and John record with a Judean understanding of the 15th as the Preparation (of the Passover) day. Mark and Luke record the following day as the preparation of the Sabbath (not the Passover). This is most likely because they both would have a Hellenistic understanding and may not have understood that the 15th was a high day known as the Preparation Day, the day they should have been prepared to Exodus on.

This would place Thursday the 15th as the Preparation day, followed by the following day (Friday) as the preparation of the sabbath. All gospels mesh perfectly once the difference in knowledge and perspective is accounted for.

A 13th Passover observance is a result of a Protestant attempt to provide an alternative to the RCC Good Friday narrative but has almost as many inaccuracies as the RCC. It constantly surprises me that Torah guys get caught up in this when the foundation is so easy to disprove from Torah.
 
Verifyveritas76 said:
If I’m not mistaken, all four Gospels record the supper as being an observance of the Passover which was never on the evening of the 13th. It always began the evening of the 14th and finished the evening of the 15th.

Numbers 33:3
And they departed from Rameses in the first month, on the fifteenth†day of the first month; on the morrow after the passover the children of Israel went out with an high hand in the sight of all the Egyptians.

If the Passover was observed the evening of the 13th, the morrow after the Passover would be the 14th not the 15th. Which would necessitate and additional 24 hour period in Egypt that is not accounted for in the Exodus. According to the Exodus 12 account, this is impossible. Three times it is recorded as the selfsame day. It became known as the Preparation day because they were thrust out unprepared after Moses had instructed them to be prepared against that day. Because they were unprepared, they had to bundle their unleavened bread in the troughs and leave by the evening of the 15th

Both Matthew and John record with a Judean understanding of the 15th as the Preparation (of the Passover) day. Mark and Luke record the following day as the preparation of the Sabbath (not the Passover). This is most likely because they both would have a Hellenistic understanding and may not have understood that the 15th was a high day known as the Preparation Day, the day they should have been prepared to Exodus on.

This would place Thursday the 15th as the Preparation day, followed by the following day (Friday) as the preparation of the sabbath. All gospels mesh perfectly once the difference in knowledge and perspective is accounted for.

A 13th Passover observance is a result of a Protestant attempt to provide an alternative to the RCC Good Friday narrative but has almost as many inaccuracies as the RCC. It constantly surprises me that Torah guys get caught up in this when the foundation is so easy to disprove from Torah.
Click to expand...

That's what the video is discussing... And they make the best case for it that I have ever seen...

Part of the problem with the last supper being the passover meal is the sabbaths don't fit in the time line...
 
Verifyveritas76 said:
A 13th Passover observance is a result of a Protestant attempt to provide an alternative to the RCC Good Friday narrative but has almost as many inaccuracies as the RCC. It constantly surprises me that Torah guys get caught up in this when the foundation is so easy to disprove from Torah.
Click to expand...

Who is claiming a 13th passover?
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top