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Polygamy for economic survival
- Thread starter Shadowjak's Dancer
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Yes, thank you Ylop, Wesley can try to produce a reasonable response to my contextual arguments in a private message, if he so wishes, but this topic is about something else entirely.
Because the more wives we take, the more daughters we can breed to sell...ylop said:I think polygamy can be good for economic survival
Ha!
Why buy, when if you look at Wesley's views, you can marry by rape?
It's cheaper, in every sense!
It's cheaper, in every sense!
Ah, but you're not looking at this from the perspective of an economic investment. If each wife costs, say, $20,000, but each can have an average of 6 daughters if you marry them young enough and keep them fairly constantly pregnant, that's $120,000 income, or a $100,000 profit, before you even start to account for the contribution their corresponding 6 sons make to the household. Nothing wrong with spending money to make more money.
Marrying through rape means you'd have a chance of making $120,000 instead of $100,000, and a chance of having your balls shot off by an angry father-in-law and losing the opportunity to make any profit at all. The money invested up-front is insignificant in the total scheme of things, your proposed investment is so much riskier. It's not worth it.
You've got to keep focussed on the money here, we're talking about wives as an economic investment, not "how can you get as many wives as possible on the cheap".
(In case it isn't clear, this entire post is sarcastic...)
Marrying through rape means you'd have a chance of making $120,000 instead of $100,000, and a chance of having your balls shot off by an angry father-in-law and losing the opportunity to make any profit at all. The money invested up-front is insignificant in the total scheme of things, your proposed investment is so much riskier. It's not worth it.
You've got to keep focussed on the money here, we're talking about wives as an economic investment, not "how can you get as many wives as possible on the cheap".
(In case it isn't clear, this entire post is sarcastic...)
Incidentally, that chain of logic conclusively proves that human trafficking in a free market protects women from sexual abuse...
well, that certainly gives a new twist to the notion of a 'shotgun wedding'...
FollowingHim said {quote} Jumping back to the OP for a moment:
jacobhaivri wrote:Now, it seems to me that there was a time in the USA when a single income family could manage well enough, but as time marched on double income homes became the standard. These days, however, it seems like there are an awful lot of folks out there struggling to get by on just two incomes.
Ever wondered why?
Back in the day, the man was expected to be the provider, and women had a limited number of socially acceptable employment opportunities outside the home (nurses, teachers etc). Then feminists decided that women should have the opportunity to do more (fair enough), and society changed to give women more opportunities. No problem with the logic. But that changed the entire economic situation around pay.
The more women who chose to work, the larger the workforce, ie the greater the supply of labour. When you raise supply you lower prices. So the more women working, the lower the average wage could be. Wages reduced in real terms (ie buying power) over the years. The lower wages got, the more families struggled, and the more wives needed to work. The more wives worked, the lower the wages. A century later we've basically doubled the workforce, doubling the supply of labour - and roughly halving effective salaries. So the average family now needs two incomes now to be as well off as a family a century ago would be on one.
The net result is that a century ago many women had no choice but to be a housewife, and now many women have no choice but to have a career. So much for freedom for women...{quote}
I think FollowingHim, that while that makes sense when you hear it, that is not the real cause of the problem. Most of the world has gone into monetary bondage, from ignoring God's laws about weights and measures, and usury. Welcome to Babylon, where the rich manipulate the markets for their own selfish gain.
There is an excellent documentary on this for anyone interested, you can watch it here.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iDtBSiI13fE
I think the curses of Deut. 28 are at work these days too. Just my opinion.
jacobhaivri wrote:Now, it seems to me that there was a time in the USA when a single income family could manage well enough, but as time marched on double income homes became the standard. These days, however, it seems like there are an awful lot of folks out there struggling to get by on just two incomes.
Ever wondered why?
Back in the day, the man was expected to be the provider, and women had a limited number of socially acceptable employment opportunities outside the home (nurses, teachers etc). Then feminists decided that women should have the opportunity to do more (fair enough), and society changed to give women more opportunities. No problem with the logic. But that changed the entire economic situation around pay.
The more women who chose to work, the larger the workforce, ie the greater the supply of labour. When you raise supply you lower prices. So the more women working, the lower the average wage could be. Wages reduced in real terms (ie buying power) over the years. The lower wages got, the more families struggled, and the more wives needed to work. The more wives worked, the lower the wages. A century later we've basically doubled the workforce, doubling the supply of labour - and roughly halving effective salaries. So the average family now needs two incomes now to be as well off as a family a century ago would be on one.
The net result is that a century ago many women had no choice but to be a housewife, and now many women have no choice but to have a career. So much for freedom for women...{quote}
I think FollowingHim, that while that makes sense when you hear it, that is not the real cause of the problem. Most of the world has gone into monetary bondage, from ignoring God's laws about weights and measures, and usury. Welcome to Babylon, where the rich manipulate the markets for their own selfish gain.
There is an excellent documentary on this for anyone interested, you can watch it here.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iDtBSiI13fE
I think the curses of Deut. 28 are at work these days too. Just my opinion.
LOL @ jacobhaivri and FollowingHim,
Both of you need to reread the notes at the bottom of my comments. Because there is no command from God to sell our daughters or rape women there is no reason to break the human law that forbids it.
Further, what are you going to do if the woman decides that she doesn't want to be married? Matthew 6:15 and John 8:7 don't leave you many options even if I'm correct in saying that she sins by refusing.
@ Joleneakamama,
It sounds like you need to take a course in basic economics. The points you're trying to refute are scientifically irrefutable. The scenario you suggest may be happening too, although I personally doubt it, but the economic reality of doubling the work force without increasing the demand for workers is based on a proven law of science that has stood inviolate for about 400 years.
Both of you need to reread the notes at the bottom of my comments. Because there is no command from God to sell our daughters or rape women there is no reason to break the human law that forbids it.
Further, what are you going to do if the woman decides that she doesn't want to be married? Matthew 6:15 and John 8:7 don't leave you many options even if I'm correct in saying that she sins by refusing.
@ Joleneakamama,
It sounds like you need to take a course in basic economics. The points you're trying to refute are scientifically irrefutable. The scenario you suggest may be happening too, although I personally doubt it, but the economic reality of doubling the work force without increasing the demand for workers is based on a proven law of science that has stood inviolate for about 400 years.
Economics is an extremely complex topic, and there are many different elements at play here. You are certainly correct that government debasing of money, fractional reserve banking etc are also major contributors to the problems we see today. Alongside the supply-demand of labour, and many other factors.Joleneakamama said:
Wesley, if you doubt Joleneakamama's concerns, I would encourage you to look more into economics yourself, from a free-market and sound money perspective. Jolene's video she links to looks like it would be good (I haven't watched it), but it is quite long. If you want to understand at least part of the problem in <10 minutes (the destruction of weights & measures through debasing the money supply), try this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Fm5NSeVPog
And to show it's a global issue, here's the same thing illustrated from a European perspective:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ov2Sd-QRi_g
FollowingHim said:
I have no doubts that the problems that Joleneakamama points out are real problems. I see them as symptomatic rather than causal however.
Looking at history I see a particular chain of events.
- WWII caused the deaths of a lot of young men reducing the number of marriageable aged men and leaving many women as widows and many children as orphans.
- By the 1960's the war orphans were now in their twenties and were a particularly large voting bloc in this country, and other countries as well.
- The idea of marriage licenses, introduced in the 1920's, prevented the unlicensed practice of polygamy (which prevented the problem from occurring after the US Civil War) from providing those youngsters with fathers as they were growing up so they had no work ethic (no example of a father going to work everyday) and no knowledge of how to make a marriage last (again no example)
- While we can all point to anecdotes (individuals) who grew up "just fine in a single parent household" (whether they are actually fine or not) anecdotes don't make percentages. The resulting single parent families produced far too high of a percentage of irresponsible adults
- The lack of skill at making a marriage work caused an ever increasing divorce rate which caused the problem to be a self perpetuating cycle as single parents did their best but lacked one or the other example needed to teach a child how to be a responsible adult causing each successive generation to have a larger and larger percentage of irresponsible voters
- The resulting irresponsible voters caused fiscal irresponsibility in the government because stupid voters make for stupider politicians
- And all of the problems that we are now seeing result from those irresponsible politicians therefore the economic problems that you pointed out and the problems that Joleneakamama's pointed out all come from that one root cause in my opinion.
That's my take on it anyway.
Wesley, that documentary I linked to is long, but it will give you behind the scenes history, revealing the cause of ww2.
Babylon the great is a mystery to most people because they have been told by the schools, the media and the politicians what to believe about most any subject. Like the preachers of today who are ignorant of much of what the bible teaches, because they let the seminary tell them what mattered, and how to interpret scripture.
I may sound more knowledgeable about economics if I babbled about bubbles and business cycles, but the truth is those are deliberate manipulations of the market DESIGNED to let a few very rich people get more money. The truth is found in scripture, not institutions that profess to teach.
Babylon the great is a mystery to most people because they have been told by the schools, the media and the politicians what to believe about most any subject. Like the preachers of today who are ignorant of much of what the bible teaches, because they let the seminary tell them what mattered, and how to interpret scripture.
I may sound more knowledgeable about economics if I babbled about bubbles and business cycles, but the truth is those are deliberate manipulations of the market DESIGNED to let a few very rich people get more money. The truth is found in scripture, not institutions that profess to teach.
Wesley, I do like your take on how marriage licences may have damaged post-war society, well put, that is a very interesting way of looking at it.
However the economic issues stem from long before that. The problems we see now are symptoms of changes in the money system introduced in the very early 20th century, and the reasons behind those changes go back even further. Fascinating to look into, as Jolene has pointed out - and they don't teach this stuff in school, because if everyone understood how badly flawed the system is nobody would conform to it.
This shouldn't be a debate about "who knows the real cause". It's a complex issue with many factors in play. Everyone is at least partially right.
However the economic issues stem from long before that. The problems we see now are symptoms of changes in the money system introduced in the very early 20th century, and the reasons behind those changes go back even further. Fascinating to look into, as Jolene has pointed out - and they don't teach this stuff in school, because if everyone understood how badly flawed the system is nobody would conform to it.
This shouldn't be a debate about "who knows the real cause". It's a complex issue with many factors in play. Everyone is at least partially right.
GloryGirl
Member
My son, 14 years old, has expressed an interest in economics. We homeschool and are therefore not constrained to any curriculum, but I could not begin to say I understand anything but the most rudimentary concepts of economics. Given that, what articles and books would each of you recommend a young teenager read on the subject?
Economics in One Lesson by Henry Hazlitt. I would recommend this to anybody as the single best introductory text on economics. It has been the inspiration for many economists in the past, it's stood the test of time, is highly readable, size of a small novel, and inexpensive. You can even get the electronic version free here, but it's well worth investing in a paper copy:
http://mises.org/library/economics-one-lesson
http://mises.org/homeschool-resources
From a closer-to-home, accounting point of view, Rich Dad Poor Dad and the other books etc by Robert Kiyosaki are excellent reading. We've just purchased his board game "Cashflow for Kids" to provide an introduction to how money works for our homeschooled children (eldest is 6). Haven't played it before but it's well reviewed. This or his adult "Cashflow 101" game might be excellent for your 14-year-old (I've played Cashflow 101 and it's excellent).
http://mises.org/library/economics-one-lesson
The Mises Institute has a homeschooling resources section that I have not used yet as our kids are younger, but looks great:Mises Institute said:
http://mises.org/homeschool-resources
From a closer-to-home, accounting point of view, Rich Dad Poor Dad and the other books etc by Robert Kiyosaki are excellent reading. We've just purchased his board game "Cashflow for Kids" to provide an introduction to how money works for our homeschooled children (eldest is 6). Haven't played it before but it's well reviewed. This or his adult "Cashflow 101" game might be excellent for your 14-year-old (I've played Cashflow 101 and it's excellent).
FollowingHim said:
I will agree that arguments, about anything, are unproductive. I will also agree that it is a complex, multi-faceted problem that has a lot of contributing factors.
The fact is that the US was on the ascent until the Great Depression. While it is possible to say that the economic factors you speak of caused the Great Depression the US also recovered from it in response to WWII. That wouldn't have been possible if it was caused by flaws in the market/economic system. The US manufactured more in WWII than all other combatants combined. Stressing a flawed economy with the kind of intense manufacturing efforts we made WWII would have shattered rather than fixed it.
So while the problems that you speak of may have contributed to the problem they are not the central problem or else we could not have done the manufacturing miracles that we did in WWII.
This is called the "broken window fallacy". Read the book I refer to above. It was written soon after WWII, during the recovery you speak of, and will give you a different perspective on the entire situation.Wesley said: