Meat Once saved always saved?

[rockfox]

So let's see what the Scriptures say regarding salvation.
Eph. 2:8-10; For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.
Your claim to salvation that can be potentially lost is a salvation without fruit; it's easy-believism salvation. If there is no consistent fruit production, it's not the true salvation that God Himself has wrought. Read the parable of the seed and the soils again. It's only the seed that sprouts and brings forth fruit that pictures true salvation. Matthew 13:23; "But he who received seed on the good ground is he who hears the word and understands it, who indeed bears fruit and produces: some a hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.”

You posit a difference between fruitless salvation and salvation God Himself wroughts; as if the fruitless one was a false one not wrought by God.

But the parable of the sower speaks of one sower and one kind of seed. The difference in results came from the type of soil, the difference in peoples and in the walk of their life.

"But he who received the seed on stony places, this is he who hears the word and immediately receives it with joy; yet he has no root in himself, but endures only for a while. For when tribulation or persecution arises because of the word, immediately he stumbles. "

It was received. He endured. He was in Christ! But only for a little while, he did not endure to the end. He is as the branch which was on vine part of Christ but did not produce fruit and then cut off. In Christ and then not.

The branches, they produce fruit by the power of God but God still cuts them off if they won't produce fruit. Just like the parable of the sower and the one who fails to endure persecution, or the one distracted by the cares of the world. They were in Christ. But they did not abide. You say OSAS but Christ undeniably speaks of people saved, and then cast out.

God saves sinners and He guarantees their salvation according to His power.

God grants us salvation by right, it is not earned. It is guaranteed; God won't turn back on His word and Satan can't take it. But it can be lost/rejected by failure to uphold the terms of the agreement.

But to say that once saved one will always be saved, that there is no other possible outcome than for a person to be saved, that God will make is so, that just is not true. That is 180 degrees contrary to what Christ teaches in John; cannot be reconciled. Far from guaranteeing salvation, Jesus guarantees they'll be cast out into the fire if they don't abide in Him.

And what affect do you suppose this will have on peoples eternal destination, telling them their salvation is guaranteed while Christ promises they'll be cast out if they don't produce fruit?

Things like that lead to a sense of inaction, refusals to repent, and indifference. These people are ripe to not yield fruit, to be distracted by the cares of the world, to fall away when faced with temptation, trial and persecution because after all their salvation is guaranteed.

And that makes OSAS a damnable heresy from the pit of hell.

 

[rockfox]

I lean heavily on the eternal security of my election because, much like salvation, it's not my power to keep it. But...if someone appears to show the fruits of election, and then falls away, I think much like @FollowingHim and wonder if that person was truly elect to begin with, or merely an imposter. The effect is the same.

And yet Paul says...

Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling; for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure.

Do all things without [complaining and disputing, that you may become blameless and harmless, children of God without fault in the midst of a crooked and perverse generation, among whom you shine as lights in the world, holding fast the word of life, so that I may rejoice in the day of Christ that I have not run in vain or labored in vain.

Salvation is not a credit to us but to God, it is His work. But it is conditional on many things. Our belief. Repentance. Abiding in Christ. "Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling." You can't derive such a statement from OSAS theology.

People who were saved and then fell away weren't impostors. They were Christians, they were saved, but they lost it. They were branches pruned. They were seed that sprouted and then died for failed to produce fruit. Christ in the parable of the sowers doesn't say they were never truly saved, He doesn't say they were from false seed, He says they fell away. Failed to abide. Look at the language Christ uses...

"But he who received the seed on stony places, this is he who hears the word and immediately receives it with joy; yet he has no root in himself, but endures only for a while. For when tribulation or persecution arises because of the word, immediately he stumbles. "

He describes it just as we colloquially do: they fell away. Not that they never were saved. But that they fell away. They once were, and then were lost. They were in Christ and then not. They were alive and then dead. The had it and then lost it.

I have a rather different view, in that I think both positions are just looking at different parts of the picture rather than the whole.

Theories about time are fantasy tales. God does not speak on the matter; at least not with any clarity and are no basis for understanding the principles of the Kingdom.

 

[Pacman]

Theories about time are fantasy tales. God does not speak on the matter; at least not with any clarity and are no basis for understanding the principles of the Kingdom

This is an important point. We theorize about how Yah sees time and there are hints about him not being constrained by it. However we are never once told to factor that into our decisions especially regarding salvation. All of the language throughout the scriptures includes cause and effect for human actions. Does he already know the end? Of course he does but we don't. We are told to abide in him and there are consequences if we don't...

 

[Kai T]

When it comes to the doctrine of predestination, we often come to understand it as God already chose the elect before the foundation of the world.
However, there are a few questions that come to my mind that may help clarify the issues about OSAS:
1. Does the sheep of Jesus refer to only the elect or all believers?
2. Are all believers necessarily the elect? Or, are only disciples the elect referred to in the passage? Those who inherit the Eternal Life are not necessarily the Elect but only those who are willing to leave everything behind and follow Jesus?
3. Is it possible that God only chose the disciples of the Lord but He left open the possibility for those who have simple faith to also obtain the gift of salvation?
4. Disciples or the Elect are those who are not just saved and chosen by God but are also considered great in the Kingdom of God?

 

[frederick]

You posit a difference between fruitless salvation and salvation God Himself wroughts; as if the fruitless one was a false one not wrought by God.

No, I never said that there was such a thing as "fruitless salvation". James asked, "What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him?" A faith that is fruitless; a faith that has no evidence of life is a dead faith. James says, "Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead." Dead faith doesn't save sinners, however a living faith that saves will produce good fruit.

David wrote in the Psalm saying, "The LORD is my shepherd."
Another wrote saying, "For He is our God, and we are the people of His pasture, and the sheep of His hand."
And another wrote, "Know that the LORD, He is God; It is He who has made us, and not we ourselves; we are His people and the sheep of His pasture."
Jesus said, "I am the good shepherd; and I know My sheep." The sheep Jesus knows are His sheep and it is these to whom He gives a life that He says is eternal; John 10:28, "And I give them eternal life." Eternal life is a life Jesus says is one where those to whom He has given such life will "never perish"; καὶ οὐ μὴ ἀπόλωνται. We are also told that God "has given us the Spirit as a guarantee", and these people are those "who are kept by the power of God."

The life that Jesus gives is eternal, guaranteed, and guarded. Therefore it is the epitome of arrogance to claim to be able to defeat God in His salvific work; it blasphemes His Holy Name and those who teach such are teaching heresy.

God grants us salvation by right

No, God says the salvation He gives is according to His grace.

He endured. He was in Christ!

No, he "endures only for a while"; is temporary. There is nowhere in the passage you reference where it is even suggested such a one "was in Christ"!

 

[frederick]

"Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling." You can't derive such a statement from OSAS theology.

You are misrepresenting Holy Scripture. The passage you reference is from Paul's epistle to the Philippians; Phil. 2:12, where Paul is addressing fellow saints whom he loves; "Therefore, my beloved". They are therefore already saved; redeemed by the blood of Jesus Christ and the salvation they possess is their "own salvation". Such a salvation is productive, producing good works just as Paul wrote in his epistle to the Ephesians; "For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them." James concluded, "For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also."

To infer the Philippian saints needed to do some sort of work to either attain or maintain the salvation they already possessed is wrong; to teach such error is to be a false teacher.

 

[Daniel DeLuca]

You are misrepresenting Holy Scripture. The passage you reference is from Paul's epistle to the Philippians; Phil. 2:12, where Paul is addressing fellow saints whom he loves; "Therefore, my beloved". They are therefore already saved; redeemed by the blood of Jesus Christ and the salvation they possess is their "own salvation". Such a salvation is productive, producing good works just as Paul wrote in his epistle to the Ephesians; "For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them." James concluded, "For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also."

To infer the Philippian saints needed to do some sort of work to either attain or maintain the salvation they already possessed is wrong; to teach such error is to be a false teacher.

Exactly! I am not sure how he missed the part about God who is working in you both to will and to DO His good pleasure.

 

[Pacman]

No one has responded to this:

Romans 11:17-24
But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive, were grafted in among them and became partaker with them of the rich root of the olive tree, [18] do not be arrogant toward the branches; but if you are arrogant, remember that it is not you who supports the root, but the root supports you. [19] You will say then, "Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in." [20] Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear; [21] for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either. [22] Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God's kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off. [23] And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. [24] For if you were cut off from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these who are the natural branches be grafted into their own olive tree?

@frederick you are yet to address this. What is your understanding of this passage?

 

[Mojo]

Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling."

There's more than one way to interpret this verse.

Is it necessarily saying that the fear and trembling is because we should fear bring cut off or is it the normal "fear of the Lord" (that is oftener watered down by the feminine church) that we should all have as we go about working for our Lord in gratitude for our salvation.

Others have already mentioned James, so I won't.

 

[FollowingHim]

This is an important point. We theorize about how Yah sees time and there are hints about him not being constrained by it. However we are never once told to factor that into our decisions especially regarding salvation. All of the language throughout the scriptures includes cause and effect for human actions. Does he already know the end? Of course he does but we don't. We are told to abide in him and there are consequences if we don't...

I agree. The scripture very clearly states that we must choose to follow, and to abide in Him. That is all we need to know in order to obey Him. We must do that. It really makes no practical difference at all if we're following Him because He chose us, or if He chose us because we would follow Him. We don't really need to understand all the theological details behind it.

However, because we're inquisitive, we want to understand the theological details also. And when people dig into the details, they end up grabbing "proof texts" from one or other side of this, and having the same old Calvinism / Arminianism debate that Christians have had for time immemorial. To resolve that, I find it helpful to "theorise about time". Because that solves the entire theological debate. It is the simplest resolution of all the "proof texts", on both sides, as it shows that both perspectives can be simultaneously true, at least in part. Ending the need to debate and letting us get back to what actually matters - our need to follow and abide in Him.

 

[The Revolting Man]

To infer the Philippian saints needed to do some sort of work to either attain or maintain the salvation they already possessed is wrong; to teach such error is to be a false teacher.

That’s a low and unsubstantiated attack. A false teacher is a despicable thing and leveling that charge should not be done for a belief that vast swaths of the Church have held for all of it’s history. The whole idea of working out your salvation with fear and trembling, with fear and trembling, implies that there is something to be afraid of. Clearly there is a risk of some kind attached to your salvation and you have to work to avoid it. Now maybe it’s not possible to renounce the faith, although we know from scripture you can and it can’t be reversed, but you haven’t offered any explanation for what it does mean. Or how someone who once believed can deny the truth if it’s not possible for someone to leave their faith.

 

[Mojo]

with fear and trembling,

I think fear and trembling aren't emphasized enough in the modern church, but is it fear of judgment, chastisement, and lack of protection, or the ultimate repercussion of eternal separation and damnation? Why must it be the latter?

 

[The Revolting Man]

I think fear and trembling aren't emphasized enough in the modern church, but is it fear of judgment, chastisement, and lack of protection, or the ultimate repercussion of eternal separation and damnation? Why must it be the latter?

There is no difference between the two things except degrees.

 

[Daniel DeLuca]

There is no difference between the two things except degrees.

Sure there is! There is eternal judgment of hellfire to fear, and there is lack of eternal rewards to fear. In heaven, there will be some who are saved as though escaping the flames, as Paul described in I Cor 1.

 

[Mojo]

There is no difference between the two things except degrees.

There is if one is in the temporal and the other is eternal.

Can God judge, chastize, and take his hand of protection off of one of his elect (relegating them to suffer the consequences if their own decisions) on Earth yet not take away his sonship or cast him to everlasting torment?

Has anyone ever considered the parable of the Prodigal son?

 

[Daniel DeLuca]

No sir that is incorrect. Go back and read it. I am talking about willful rebellion. For someone who still believes the churchianity doctrine that the law changed at the crucifixion it isn't willful. They are incorrect in my opinion but they are part of the kingdom.

Well, at some point, in your mind, you will have convinced yourself that you have shown enough evidence that the dietary laws never changed, that those of us who disagree with you, are living in willful rebellion, regardless of what evidence we bring to the contrary.

 

[Pacman]

Well, at some point, in your mind, you will have convinced yourself that you have shown enough evidence that the dietary laws never changed, that those of us who disagree with you, are living in willful rebellion, regardless of what evidence we bring to the contrary.

So now you are arguing against a future argument that you believe I will bring up?

I can't compete with that so you win.

 

[The Revolting Man]

Sure there is! There is eternal judgment of hellfire to fear, and there is lack of eternal rewards to fear. In heaven, there will be some who are saved as though escaping the flames, as Paul described in I Cor 1.

It’s the same thing, one is just a foreshadowing of the other.

 

[Mojo]

It’s the same thing, one is just a foreshadowing of the other.

So, if He bestows enough rewards, we get in. Not enough rewards, and we get the boot?

I presume the scales are set to read the exact amount we need? If we're off by one mitzvah, we're toast...literally?

Is there any indication in scripture as to what the exact amount is?

 

[The Revolting Man]

So, if He bestows enough rewards, we get in. Not enough rewards, and we get the boot?

I presume the scales are set to read the exact amount we need? If we're off by one mitzvah, we're toast...literally?

Is there any indication in scripture as to what the exact amount is?

You guys have to stop having conversations in your heads. That has nothing to do with what I was saying. God’s Judgement is the same thing in the after life as this life, the difference is a matter of degrees. How did you get back to a works based salvation from that? Again?

You are tethered to that one idea and so are condemned (metaphorically not spiritually don’t let’s do that again) to always circle this one point. You can’t leave that one idea, simply keep running around it. You’ve worn a circular rut around this one point and like the horse the pushed the mill for its entire life can’t stop walking around this circle.

It’s very discouraging to think you’re having one conversation and then find out that no, it’s the same one. An idea that I think is both noxious and ridiculous keeps getting ascribed to me no matter what I’m talking about.

For the last time, works based salvation is stupid, almost as stupid as continually accusing someone of believing in it despite all evidence.

This is the last time I’ll say this to you. I have a hard time believing you’re not smart enough to understand but I would hate to have to accuse you of being deliberately deceitful for some disturbing purpose of your own: NO ONE HERE BELIEVES IN WORKS BASED SALVATION. No. One. Here.

If you can’t accept that then at least stop accusing of something we have denied time and again. You’re smart enough to understand our stance and surely you can’t be underhanded enough to continually accuse us falsely. Just stop. Move on.

Every Torah keeper here from the venerable @steve to the learned @PeteR to the new super star @Pacman and everyone in between had denied this accusation. We will not continue to be under a false condemnation from you or anyone else.