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Meat Once saved always saved?

He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.(Revelation 3:5 KJV)

So according to this verse your name is in the Book of Life because if it's not how can it be blotted out? You can't blot out that which does not exist. And I would also like to point out, we need to overcome, just like the verse says.

Here is something else to think about...
And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.(Matthew 10:22 KJV)
 
What is salvation?
The view of what it is alters your perception of when it is gained or if it can be lost or not
Is it a process to work through? or a ticket for entry ?
The modern view is you utter the magic words and then you instantly get an all pass ticket to ride
Instant salvation yippie

Noah on the other hand was saved when he stepped onto the ark
But there was a lot of work done up to that point
And I would assume he could have stopped at any time or even jumped overboard
The choice was his
There was little that was instant about it ,in my opinion
 
MrB said:
What is salvation?
The view of what it is alters your perception of when it is gained or if it can be lost or not
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Salvation biblically really doesn't resemble the salvation of churches today. This was a very thought provoking look at it.
 

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rockfox said:
Base your faith on the scriptures, not human logic. Believe what the scriptures say on their face and then work from there.
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So let's see what the Scriptures say regarding salvation.
Eph. 2:8-10; For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.
Your claim to salvation that can be potentially lost is a salvation without fruit; it's easy-believism salvation. If there is no consistent fruit production, it's not the true salvation that God Himself has wrought. Read the parable of the seed and the soils again. It's only the seed that sprouts and brings forth fruit that pictures true salvation. Matthew 13:23; "But he who received seed on the good ground is he who hears the word and understands it, who indeed bears fruit and produces: some a hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.”
 
frederick said:
So your salvation is, according to you, dependent upon you not performing the lists of long and multitudinous actions recorded in Acts 15 or any other passage of the new testament.
And my salvation is dependent upon the finished work of Jesus Christ who died for my sins according to the Scriptures, and was buried, and rose again the third day according to the Scriptures. Hmmm.... okay, you deserve eternal life because of your successes.
I don't deserve eternal life except for Christ's successes.
Let me think here.... mmm...., your salvation stands or falls because of who you are and my salvation stands or falls because of who Jesus Christ is. Yup, I got it now! Thanks for clearing that up.
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I don’t think you do got it, at least not according to your heavy use of sarcasm which almost always denotes an end to ideas; but also because you have missed the point of the thread, we aren’t talking about how to become saved but rather how to remain so. If you go back and reread the thread with that missing bit of information it may make more sense.

And that is how you use sarcasm.
 
frederick said:
I fully understand the point of the thread and what's more, I fully understand your statement; you will keep the multitudinous laws and therefore deserve salvation. On the contrary I am saved because my Savior purchased me with His own blood.
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No, you don’t understand anything but position you’ve assigned me is the easier one to argue against so you won’t give it up.
 
The Revolting Man said:
No, you don’t understand anything but position you’ve assigned me is the easier one to argue against so you won’t give it up.
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But if I agree with you we'll both be wrong so what's the benefit of doing that?
God saves sinners and He guarantees their salvation according to His power. He is not willing that any should perish. End of discussion.
 
I have a rather different view, in that I think both positions are just looking at different parts of the picture rather than the whole. Like the blind men and the elephant - one side's grabbed the trunk and one has grabbed the leg, but neither is seeing the whole elephant.

The key that links both perspectives together is the realisation that God is outside of time.

Einstein found that time, matter and velocity are linked, and modern scientists have demonstrated this with experiments with atomic clocks. In brief, time is so linked with physical matter that it cannot exist without matter. If God created matter, then God also created time. Therefore time is simply something He has made, and is not Himself limited by. He can look at our entire life "from the side" as it were, seeing the beginning and the end simultaneously.

The fundamental question is, when a person has begun to follow God and then turned completely from Him, being someone who scripture clearly states will not be saved, when did God reject them?
  • Before they even started following Him initially - in other words, they were never truly saved?
  • When they turned away from Him - in other words, they were initially saved then lost their salvation?
If God is outside of time, this debate is obsolete. Because God did not make his decision inside time. He didn't decide before they started following Him, or after they rejected Him. He just made the decision. There is no "when", the decision just "is".

Debating "when" is simply ascribing human limitations to God (the limitation of time), making two straw man arguments based on this false limitation, and then debating these straw men.
 
Or, to put it another way, His decision is informed by all the information from all of time (ie, from their entire life), so we could say it was made at the end of their life, or even not made until the Judgment. Yet the same decision has always existed, so we could say it was made before they were born. Both are true and simply part of the whole.
 
A couple of thoughts I want to add here.
In his epistle to the saints at Ephesus, Paul writes of the spiritual blessings the saints have in Christ saying, "He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world" (Eph. 1:4). As you read through Ephesians Chapter 1, have a look at the references to the various aspects of salvation and how they are e.g.; v:5 "...according to the purpose of his will"; v:9, "...according to his purpose, which he set forth in Christ"; v:11, "...according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will." And we are told in that Chapter the Holy Spirit is the "guarantee" (v:14); the earnest deposit, the down payment, who Himself ensures the completion of the salvific work.

When writing to the saints at Rome, Paul dealt with the objections some would have concerning God acting according to His sovereign will in regard to the salvation of sinners. In Rom. 9:14-21 Paul wrote,
What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? Certainly not! For He says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whomever I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whomever I will have compassion.” So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy. For the Scripture says to the Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I may show My power in you, and that My name may be declared in all the earth.” Therefore He has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He hardens. You will say to me then, “Why does He still find fault? For who has resisted His will?” But indeed, O man, who are you to reply against God? Will the thing formed say to him who formed it, “Why have you made me like this?” Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor?

Jesus told the disciples, "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day" (John 6:44). And in v:65; And he said, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father.”

Our thinking needs to start with who God is; God is God, He is the Potter and He has all power and authority to do as He wills with the clay, We are subject to His will, not He to ours.
 
Joleneakamama said:
appreciate this very much. I think it is important that we always remember His thoughts and ways are higher then ours.
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This is sort of where I'm at.

I spent years trying to decipher the sovereignty of God as it relates to salvation. I visited forums much like this and read and read articles, blogs, and commentaries.

Where am I at now? I'm an agnostic (meaning I don't know and can't pretend to comprehend the mind and will of God in salvation). Ultimately God is sovereign and I have no power to save myself or others. I'm just glad I'm chosen. How I got here is beyond my pay grade.

It's the same with keeping my elect status. I lean heavily on the eternal security of my election because, much like salvation, it's not my power to keep it. But...if someone appears to show the fruits of election, and then falls away, I think much like @FollowingHim and wonder if that person was truly elect to begin with, or merely an imposter. The effect is the same. I need to minister to that person until such time as they come to the light, with certainty. So, in this I am agnostic as well (I don't know). Is that a cop out? Maybe.

Can both be true? Can God hold us eternally in his hand as long as we are willingly there? Once we are there, could he ever release us and give us over to follow our own reprobate mind?

Ultimately, is God sovereign? Or, do we hold power over both salvation and security? Is Grace irresistible? Is eternal security irrevocable?

But why put a God in a box for us all to decipher?
 
rockfox said:
I see no difference between what he's saying and the general understanding of OSAS (if there is I trust him to explain it); I don't need to make up a caricature to criticize, OSAS as generally believed is ridiculous all on its own. And this thread is about OSAS in general and not just Fred's perspective.
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OSAS, as you describe it seems to be criticized by everyone on here.

Perhaps your beef is not with this doctrine, but rather the easy believism or "decisionism" begun by the likes of Finney in the 19th century and promoted by most evangelical churches to this day?
 
My Savior is not mistaken and is no liar. I was His before the beginning of time, and will be forever more, regardless of my sin. His grace and His power has absolutely nothing to do with my logic, nor my choices. I do not consent to salvation, merely do I confess with my mouth that Jesus is Lord! I could worship the enemy starting today and just as it says in Psalm 32, my Master will saddle me up and ride me to the finish line because no one may snatch me from my Father, nor may any man break apart what God has brought together. No amount of worldly logic may prove Jesus wrong. Amen! There is wisdom in fearfully working out your own salvation, however remember His admonishment for the apostles to remove the plank from their own eye lest they judge their brother for the same thing. Truthfully, salvation of anyone else's is none of my business, only The Lords.
 
I like your faithful attitude @Rebecca, but I think you go too far with this one point:
Rebecca said:
I do not consent to salvation, merely do I confess with my mouth that Jesus is Lord! I could worship the enemy starting today and just as it says in Psalm 32, my Master will saddle me up and ride me to the finish line because no one may snatch me from my Father
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If Jesus is Lord, you do not worship the enemy.
If you worship the enemy, then Jesus is not your Lord. Worship means to actually submit to, not just to sing happy songs to.
So these statements are mutually exclusive. You cannot serve two masters. If you are worshipping the enemy, Jesus is not your Lord, and you are at risk of finding out that you are not in His hand (either because He does let you out of it, or you never were in it and were only mistaken). We must persist in our faith and not fall away, we are warned strongly in scripture not to do so.

I am not saying this because I think there is any risk of you actually worshipping the enemy! As I said, I like your faith. I just felt a need to correct something that could mislead a reader into thinking they can wilfully sin however they like and it's ok.
 
frederick said:
But if I agree with you we'll both be wrong so what's the benefit of doing that?
God saves sinners and He guarantees their salvation according to His power. He is not willing that any should perish. End of discussion.
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If that’s what we were talking about it would have been the end of the discussion.
 
Every sin we commit is praising the evil one, whether a conscious decision or otherwise. I could worship an idol in my heart, like the pharisees, and be a whitewashed tomb, and still my Lord will never forsake me, but buy me back from the slavery of my prostitution as it is written by the prophet Hosea. I need not worry about meeting my God at His kingdom come, because, to He who is not bound by time, I'm already there with Him, as it was since the beginning. Those who belong to Him have always and will always, because His covenant is Holy. Those who do not belong to Him, have never and will never, as He says, "Jacob I loved and Esau I hated." If you belong to Him, you will remain in Him, and will accept the discipline of His mighty hand, because your spirit will rejoice in your Fathers love.
 
Yeah Col 3:5 comes to mind.
Put to death, therefore, whatever belongs to your earthly nature: sexual immorality, impurity, lust, evil desires and greed, which is idolatry
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If God is outside of time (which I believe he is) then lots of paradoxes are resolved. Like we have free will, but (since God is outside of time) he already knows what our response is. The list of who is saved and who is not saved is not changing because God already has the final list.
 
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