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Mark, the long and short of it...

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Asforme&myhouse

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Some have suggested that I am quick to cut out the parts of Scripture that don’t fit my theology. I would like to set the record straight.

I personally believe the long ending of Mark’s Gospel to be inspired. Some people question it based on textual criticism. I think the evidence that it is inspired, out weighs the evidence against it being inspired.

My point, in the thread where this all came up, is that if we are dealing with a part of Scripture that has some questions as to whether or not it was in the original autographs, we should check to make sure our theology isn’t based solely on the verse in question. To my knowledge there are only two such portions of Scripture that have any legitimate questions about their authenticity. One being the ending of Mark and the other is the passage concerning “the woman caught in adultery” found in John 8.

The long ending of Mark’s Gospel does not go against my theology, in fact, I believe it strengthens it. My point is that signs and wonders are to authenticate Scripture and specifically point to Yeshua as being the Messiah whose coming was foretold by the prophets of old. The long ending of Mark bolsters that idea. In it, Mark states that Yeshua is speaking specifically to the 11 disciples. That is the context of the verses that follow. Yeshua is turning His disciples into His “sent ones”, or Apostles. He tells them ahead of time about things that will happen to them that are recorded for us later in Scripture. Notice that Yeshua speaks this specifically to the 11. Mark specifically says
“And they went forth, and preached every where, the Lord working with them , and confirming the word with signs following. Amen.”
The signs (miracles) confirmed the words of the Apostles. We don’t need signs today. Why not? Because God already confirmed the word of the Apostles with signs and wonders. Yeshua wrote nothing down. It was through His Apostles that He chose to convey His Message to the world. There is no need for new signs of confirmation, because it has already been confirmed. Seeking after new signs of confirmation isn’t something we should be doing and signs today would take away from the entire point of the signs performed by the Apostles and Yeshua’s first martyrs (witnesses). Just because those signs happened a long time ago doesn’t invalidate them, they are still valid. Those are the signs we point to, to authenticate the truth of the Gospel to unbelievers.

Does God still perform miracles? YES!!! Does He do it to authenticate the message? No. He does it on occasion to show us His goodness.
 
I almost always agree with everything you say. I'm a little confused at the moment though. Are you a dispensationalist? Do you believe most of the gifts of the spirit were for the apostles time only? While I grew up in the modern Pentecostal movement and am highly skeptical of the vast majority of it I can't quite get to dispensationalism.
 
I literally just about posted exactly what Zec said above...

I can’t quite make the leap either even though I grew up deep in the Pentecostal movement and have experienced some serious “stuff”...

According to several comments @Asforme&myhouse has made in the past I’d say he’s probably gonna clarify no leap there for him either...
... am I right bro?
 
I'm going to come at this a little softer than I did in the last thread. I get the reasoning behind what your saying that God used miracles only to validate his word at the beginning and now has no reason to do the same. But at the end of the day it is just reasoning without scripture. Nowhere does it say in scripture that God only used miracles to validate his word. I see taking that reasoning to explain why we don't see them now but it doesn't have a scriptural basis. I'm amazed you haven't tried to use 1 corinthian s 13:10. It's an easy argument to shoot down but it always seems like the go to. Glad to see your keeping the long ending of Mark in there.
 
Zec and Rusty, I hear you. I was raised in a charismatic church. I once thought it was a leap too. Kind of like that leap to the crazy notion that a man could have more than one woman. On the other side, you look back and go ‘there was no leap!’. On the other side you start to notice the context and meaning of verses that you breezed right passed before.

I guess my question would be, why did the signs God performed in Egypt not continue, or the miracles in the wilderness? Why isn’t God’s voice still thundering from Mount Sinai? Why didn’t God keep giving the children of Israel quail and mana to eat? God’s signs are literally like sign posts on a highway that serve the purpose of pointing us to something. If we get caught up and only focus on the signs we miss what they are pointing to. When we look at the whole of Scripture, we see a pattern when it comes to signs and wonders. That pattern is the authentication of the written Word of God. In the Gospels we hear phrases like,
John 20:31 KJV
[31] But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.



I wouldn’t consider myself a dispensationalist. At least not in the way I understand it’s meaning. I think all of us are dispensationalists to one degree or another. God didn’t hand Adam the King James Bible in the Garden. God’s revelation has progressed through history. In the Garden we see the prophecy of the seed of the woman. In the flood we see Noah and his family (the remnant) saved through water. In Abraham we see faith accredited as righteousness. In Moses we see God’s righteous moral Law, so perfect that no one can attain it through works, so there Must be a Sacrifice. All these things point forward to what?

>>>>>>>>>>>YESHUA<<<<<<<<<<<<

HE IS THE STAR OF THE ENTIRE SHOW

EVERY KNEE WILL BOW AND EVERY TONGUE CONFESS THAT HE IS LORD

He divides history in two, one side pointing forward and the other side pointing back, to HIM

I don’t think that God changes, any more than you could say an artist changes while painting a master piece. Just because he, at one point, painted clouds and now is painting birds, doesn’t mean what he is doing has changed. Think of it this way. God doesn’t exist in time, and He knows the end from the beginning. We all have different parts to play in the same production. In other words, it’s one cohesive unit, that WE see linearly in time. Moses wasn’t Abraham, the Aspostles weren’t Moses, we aren’t the Apostles. Did God change? Was He doing different things? Sort of, from our perspective, but not really from His. Remember The Lamb of God, slain before the foundation of the world? It’s one big production that reveals the Glory, Awesomeness, Love, Kindness, Justice, Mercy, and Splendor of The Glorious KING OF KINGS that we, loathsome creatures that we are, get to spend eternity with Because He has Redeemed us!!!

Our mission as disciples, of disciples, of disciples, etc. etc. of the Apostles, the disciples of Christ is to proclaim Yeshua’s message, that He gave through the Apostles. That message isn’t signs and wonders (signs and wonders are super cool, by they way!) it’s repentance of sin and Christ crucified for our sins.

Solder Psalm, we don’t need one specific verse to come to this conclusion, because we have the entire canon of Scripture. Step back and look at the whole painting :)
 
Here’s some Scripture, although if you haven’t made “the leap” yet, you might not see it. Hope it wets your appetite :)

Hebrews 2:3-4 KJV
[3] How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him ; [4] God also bearing them witness, both with signs and wonders, and with divers miracles, and gifts of the Holy Ghost, according to his own will?


Who heard Yeshua? And who did God bear witness to with signs, wonders, miracles, and gifts of the Holy Spirit?

Apparently it was those who heard Yeshua and conveyed His message that God bore witness to with signs.

But don’t take my word for it, seach the Scriptures and see if these things be so. :)
 
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@Asforme&myhouse, what's your take on Jas 5? Not just the prayers for healing part, but also the "Elijah was a man subject to like passions as we are" part ("heavy cloud but, no rain"). Who was James talking to? On what ground would you say that no longer applies to us?

While we're at it, how do you distinguish Jesus' teaching on signs and wonders, which you limit to his immediate hearers, from the Great Commission, which Christians by the drove have been appropriating as basic instructions for all Christians? The Great Commission is arguably the moment at which Jesus "apostles" those guys, sending them out into the world to spread his message; why isn't that limited in its application to the immediate audience?
 
Verifyveritas76 said:
From what I can tell, signs and wonders were always to those outside covenant. Those inside covenant had no need of them.

Though Ananias and Saphira come to mind for those inside covenant.
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I can see how you might think that, but I think that you are compartmentalizing
Paul himself prayed and hoped for some sort of healing or miraculous relief that he didn’t receive. He didn’t attribute his lack of getting what he was asking for to the idea that it was only for the outsiders.
Also, Yeshua healed Peters mother.

Yes, many miracles were done to show the unbelievers, but that’s basically saying that a form of magic-style acts were used to make believers. I am not comfortable with that as being the reason for success. Miracles as being part of ministry to the whole person seems more like what YHWH would desire.
 
James 5 applies to us, maybe not specifically in our situation right now, but most likely in the future. What is James 5 talking about? Is it physical healing or spiritual? And before everyone says “oh c’mon!” Let’s look at the context of James. The book of James was written to an assembly of believers who were living under heavy persecution. In the beginning of chapter 5 he tells the rich that miseries are coming upon them. He says these rich people have held back the wages of those who have reaped down their fields. Say what? Then he says that they have killed the “just”. Ok this isn’t talk about a couple of rich guys in the church that are not paying their employees, something else is being addressed here. Something of a spiritual nature. These rich ones are killing the just. This sounds like he is referring to heavy persecution. Then he says
James 5:7-8 KJV
[7] Be patient therefore, brethren, unto the coming of the Lord. Behold, the husbandman waiteth for the precious fruit of the earth, and hath long patience for it, until he receive the early and latter rain. [8] Be ye also patient; stablish your hearts: for the coming of the Lord draweth nigh.
Ok, he’s definitely not reassuring some under compensated farm workers that the Lord will be sending them a retro check, physically speaking.

Then James reminds them of the prophets, and of Job (interesting choice of comparison, I want to come back to this) and of their enderence and patience under suffering. These people that James is writing to sound like they are in the thick of it. It sounds as if some of their friends and family have been martyred, maybe some of those he’s writing to have been beaten or fired from their jobs, etc. These folks are suffering and dying for the sake if The Name. It sounds like they are losing heart and in danger of falling away because of what they are enduring. He has been using physical analogies to represent spiritual truths this whole time. Then he says if anyone is sick. Is this physical illness? Let’s say it is. First off, if you might be martyred tomorrow physical healing becomes less of a concern. When facing death your spiritual health is what weighs most on your mind. Also, if this is physical healing, why is it connected to sin? What about the man born blind? It wasn’t because of his sin or his parents sin, but so that God would be glorified. Also, Job didn’t suffer illness because of some specific sin, that’s a strong theme in Job. We know from other passages that not everyone was healed, even those working in ministry directly with the Apostles. So this connection to sin doesn’t make sense if it’s talking about physical healing. This seems to give a clue:
James 5:15 KJV
[15] And the prayer of faith shall save the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up; and if he have committed sins, they shall be forgiven him.

Save him? Raise him up? Sins forgiven him? This sounds spiritual not physical.

He goes on to talk about Elijah being a man just like us (it’s interesting that Elijah suffered persecution during the time refered to, in fact he was running for his life, Ahab was trying to kill him) and tells us that his prayers were effective. This also speaks to the fact that these guys we read about in scripture were not super spiritual and therefore God worked through them, God worked through them inspite of their failings and if God wants to work through us it’s not because we’re super spiritual.

I believe, judging by the context, that he is speaking to spiritual healing.
 
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The short answer to the second question is that later believers are not told to perform signs and wonders, but they are told to preach the Gospel. For instance
1 Peter 3:15 KJV
[15] But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear:
 
Asforme&myhouse said:
The signs (miracles) confirmed the words of the Apostles. We don’t need signs today. Why not? Because God already confirmed the word of the Apostles with signs and wonders. Yeshua wrote nothing down. It was through His Apostles that He chose to convey His Message to the world. There is no need for new signs of confirmation, because it has already been confirmed.
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Yes and no. It is helpful to notice when and where we see reports of signs and wonders (both in scripture and in history). It is largely when the Gospel reaches a new people, or in the midst of revival of a once live and now dead people. Why are signs and wonders useful to them? Well, why should they believe these missionaries or some arbitrary words in a book? There is little difference between the two. Nothing magical happens once a message is written down such that we don't need confirmation. The Greek believers had the same need for confirmation that an unreached people group in the 21st century has.
 
The Gospel is the power of God unto salvation. God used signs to bear witness to those who heard Him and wrote down what he said. Signs and wonders in evangelism is a mixed bag at best. See Acts 14

Also, Peter’s Law and Gospel sermon on the day of Pentecost is what God used to bring 3000 repentance and faith.
 
Asforme&myhouse said:
God used signs to bear witness to those who heard Him and wrote down what he said
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Paul's evangelism to the Greeks was accompanied by signs and wonders. Only later did the scriptures come along to them. At the time, it was all about evangelism. Mixed bag or not, the situation to new hearers of the Gospel is little different now, except that we can't take a trip to Jerusalem and ask the original Apostles for confirmation.
 
Miracles as a witness to prove the validity of the Good News to those who question is one thing.

Miracles as a healing function in a godly family instead of relying on the world is another.

They both display love. Both have purpose.
 
I'm still unclear on what you're saying @Asforme&myhouse and please forgive me if I just missed it. But are you saying that there will be no miracles or things like tongues in the period between the first century and the end times? Are miracles and signs completely done away with?
Keep in mind I am in total accord with on the emptiness of the modern Pentecostal and charismatic movements.
 
No worries, I think it’s more so my lack of communication skills, haha.

God can do anything He wants, and I know that he still does miracles and the Holy Spirit works in the body of Christ. What I’m saying is that the case can be made that the sign gifts and signs and wonders where given for a specific purpose. If the words of the Apostles were confirmed by signs, and signs are still happening today, what gives their writings any more weight then say, Benny Hinn?

If the sign gifts are for today why isn’t the canon of Scripture still open to be added to? Or do you believe that it is?
 
Asforme&myhouse said:
If the sign gifts are for today why isn’t the canon of Scripture still open to be added to? Or do you believe that it is?
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I don't think we can establish from scripture that the signs and wonders were for the sole purpose of confirming the written words of the Apostles. I'm not even sure they even say that was one of the purposes. That is the chief argument of those who wish to say there are no longer any such things; because scripture is now closed. It also fails the test of history because miracles continued for quite sometime after the Apostles and even after the cannon was set; but they did peter out slowly over time. And that is no surprise given the way the visible 'church' went.
 
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