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Making Progress on the church acceptance front

Verifyveritas76 said:
Yep. Don’t be surprised if they try to trump up other charges so that they can use those publicly to oust you for the other private disagreements.

Word to the wise, don’t leave your wife out of this! Fortify yourself in her heart. They will most certainly try to use her as leverage against you.
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I am pretty fortified in her heart, for now, but that doesn't mean they cannot undermine that. That would be very sad, as my two boys don't deserve to grow up in a broken home. I have used this opportunity to tell my wife what Scripture teaches about women remarrying. She seemed to swallow hard on that. The remarks I have made about polygamy, have indeed upset her, to the point where she reminded me of how she wanted a divorce, but while divorce may not be out of the question for her, living a life without a husband appears to be beyond where she would be willing to go.
 
Daniel DeLuca said:
Yeah, he responded and it is looking very dicey. He wants a direct answer to whether I will stop promoting polygamy at the church. I did not give him the yes or no answer that he requested, because I cannot say that I will not promote the truth. I don't think he will like my response. I said that I have never promoted false doctrine, and that I will focus my effort on this issue of marrying divorced women, and I used Rom 7:2 and I Cor 7:39. The SBC is too tolerant of this sin. I repeated back what he said about the pastor not in favor of a woman having multiple husbands, and I said that this is one area in which we can find agreement, and I said that I hoped that he would not interpret my quest for truth, as promoting a viewpoint. BTW, I am not doing a Cut and paste, because his emails are sent with a notice of confidentiality.
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Better be keeping copies of everything at this point... church/corporate email can disappear...

You've already crossed the Rubicon... they are looking for a politically safe reason.''
 
PeteR said:
Better be keeping copies of everything at this point... church/corporate email can disappear...

You've already crossed the Rubicon... they are looking for a politically safe reason.''
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Good point, you've already passed the point where most of the damage can happen. I have to say that I have been almost exactly here and my then, and also very freaked out wife, used the issue as the excuse to get the church to support her divorce. There were MANY other issues in the marriage but this was the one that was used as the club in the church. May I suggest that if your wife is not 100% enthusiastically on board you consider not pursuing this in the church. You will have absolutely zero effect on the church and it may be that once it's public that your wife can't take the heat and the imagined scorn. You may not be ready for this fight, or at least your family might not be. It's not worth a divorce over. Very little is, trust me.
 
Pete and Zec had some really good thoughts. Jesus used growing grapes a time or two in his analogies. Pruning, watering, cultivating and get some manure. Actually, you might step in a little manure. (Sounds like you may have stepped in it already)

Some things take time to cultivate. Sometimes, all you can do is water it. And somewhere down the road, another reaps the harvest. This journey is not going to be completed today, or tomorrow. It will take time. You’re doing great, but I would suggest the fourth fruit of the Spirit, Patience.
 
ZecAustin said:
Good point, you've already passed the point where most of the damage can happen. I have to say that I have been almost exactly here and my then, and also very freaked out wife, used the issue as the excuse to get the church to support her divorce. There were MANY other issues in the marriage but this was the one that was used as the club in the church. May I suggest that if your wife is not 100% enthusiastically on board you consider not pursuing this in the church. You will have absolutely zero effect on the church and it may be that once it's public that your wife can't take the heat and the imagined scorn. You may not be ready for this fight, or at least your family might not be. It's not worth a divorce over. Very little is, trust me.
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OK. he wouldn't accept my response and keeps coming back for a yes or no answer.
 
Phillip said:
Pete and Zec had some really good thoughts. Jesus used growing grapes a time or two in his analogies. Pruning, watering, cultivating and get some manure. Actually, you might step in a little manure. (Sounds like you may have stepped in it already)

Some things take time to cultivate. Sometimes, all you can do is water it. And somewhere down the road, another reaps the harvest. This journey is not going to be completed today, or tomorrow. It will take time. You’re doing great, but I would suggest the fourth fruit of the Spirit, Patience.
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Right! He basically won't accept anything other than "yes" or "no". I don't want to say "yes", because that is self-incriminating. I told him that I was more than willing to say "yes" to a question over whether I will stop defending polygamy. Interestingly enough, he said that he doesn't want to clip my wings. I suspect he might agree to allow me to defend polygamy when I am not on church property. I asked him for clarification on that point.
 
Just to add another comment here in addition to what Peter and Zec warned about the potential difficulties those opposed to you may create.
Please keep in mind, if you imagine the worst case scenario going forward, you won't even be close to how un-biblical those people can become in the things they say and do. It seems that lying and deceit even become permissible to them as they do their utmost to destroy your testimony with family and friends. Some may even stoop to seeking your financial ruin. Just a heads-up brother. Shalom.
 
I love this verse and it is so applicable to you.

Matthew 10:16

“Behold, I send you forth as sheep in the midst of wolves: be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves.”

Look for the good in people, but be aware not all people are good.
 
Phillip said:
I love this verse and it is so applicable to you.

Matthew 10:16

“Behold, I send you forth as sheep in the midst of wolves: be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves.”

Look for the good in people, but be aware not all people are good.
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Oh yeah! I am well aware of that verse. I got the Discipleship Minister to relent and accept my willingness to stop defending polygamy while on church property. The funny thing is, he never said that I couldn't defend polygamy while talking to members of the church off campus, and I asked him directly about it. He just said that he is good with my word that I will not defend polygamy. That's cool! If the topic ever comes up, I will state that I have agreed not to defend polygamy at the church, and leave it at that. That will at least let people know that there is a defense, but that I am muzzled. I think that is the best win-win situation given where I am at.
 
Daniel DeLuca said:
Oh yeah! I am well aware of that verse. I got the Discipleship Minister to relent and accept my willingness to stop defending polygamy while on church property. The funny thing is, he never said that I couldn't defend polygamy while talking to members of the church off campus, and I asked him directly about it. He just said that he is good with my word that I will not defend polygamy. That's cool! If the topic ever comes up, I will state that I have agreed not to defend polygamy at the church, and leave it at that. That will at least let people know that there is a defense, but that I am muzzled. I think that is the best win-win situation given where I am at.
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So, starting the conversation on the premises and then talking it off site to defend it is ok?
 
Mojo said:
So, starting the conversation on the premises and then talking it off site to defend it is ok?
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Yeah, I don't know. I am not starting the conversation, I am ending the conversation, and letting them know why I am ending the conversation, and then advising that I am against polyandry and polyamory, because that is where I agree with the church's position, and we can see explicit prohibition against these practices in Scripture. I may occasionally drop in that Jesus said not to look at another man's wife, whether she is his former (i.e. divorced), current or future (betrothed) wife, and even go so far as to reiterate how serious Jesus was about looking at another man's wife, by declaring that you should pluck your eye out, if it causes you to stumble. Again, if they want to bring up looking at unmarried women, I will let them know that I have been muzzled. I can't say for sure that I can have this conversation off site, so if I sense the Holy Spirit leading me to do so, I will be extremely discrete about it.
 
At this point, may be best to let the fires simmer... your position is sufficiently known.. those who hear and need more info will cone to you. Leave it in the Spirit's capable hands... resort to lots of prayer and strengthen the home front!
 
PeteR said:
At this point, may be best to let the fires simmer... your position is sufficiently known.. those who hear and need more info will cone to you. Leave it in the Spirit's capable hands... resort to lots of prayer and strengthen the home front!
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Agreed. You have planted plenty of seeds. Maybe now is the season to watch them be watered by the Spirit and sprout. If this assembly is a blessing to you and your family, and you feel committed to it, despite an error or two, then perhaps this is a silent period.

I have not been in your situation, so I can't speak from experience. But, I do associate with a local body. When the opportunity arises and I am able to lead a study or be a discussion leader, I use the opportunities to soften the minds of others about polygyny in the scriptures. Use compare and contrast (discreetly) and sprinkle in open ended rhetorical questions. If your assembly is whole scripture minded, then study of the patriarchs, David and others in OT will show up inevitably. Classic example is David and Bathsheba. If you are in (maybe not leading) a study on that episode, just wonder out loud, "Man, God really came down on David pretty hard. He already had a stable of wives. I wonder what made this different?" If nobody takes the bait....just walk away. If they do, then....take it offsite.

In regards to your leadership going after you, perhaps make it less about you. Leaders don't like martyrs standing up for pet causes (that's what they are thinking, not me). If they continue to press you, tell them that it was a subject that was bothering you while reading scripture. Then, take it away from your personal study and hand it off to something like Dr. Luck's research. Hand them the single chapter form his book on divorce. I believe it's sold in tract form. If they see scholarship behind it, it takes it off of you and "fanciful doctrines" (their thoughts, not mine).

Take it or leave it. Just my opinion.
 
frederick said:
Please keep in mind, if you imagine the worst case scenario going forward, you won't even be close to how un-biblical those people can become in the things they say and do. It seems that lying and deceit even become permissible to them as they do their utmost to destroy your testimony with family and friends. Some may even stoop to seeking your financial ruin.
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Just wanted to second this also. Been there, done that (not in my life (see below), but too many times in the lives of others).

This is for everybody, not just Daniel: Generally speaking, if you're not being led into this lifestyle IRL, it doesn't make sense for this to be the hill you die on. Your first responsibility is your obedience to God, of course, but a pretty close second is the health and welfare of your family. Don't screw that up if you don't have to. Also, generally speaking, if you are being led into this lifestyle, then I would counsel you to consider relocating when you do. Here's why:

We moved from our home town about the same time we embarked on this voyage. It was two separate decisions, not related in our minds at the time. In hindsight, though, we have seen how God used that as a way for us to avoid a lot of overt and cruel persecution compared to what I've seen happen to others. The people you're in fellowship with BP (before poly) will consider you a traitor and a reprobate when you turn, and there's not much you can do in real time to change their minds when the problem is really with their hearts. Meanwhile, the people you meet AP that aren't threatened (at least not as much, not in the same way) by your 'colorful' beliefs may or may not decide to like you or listen to you, but they won't be motivated to break you the way some of your old church 'friends' will.

So as always, "you do you", and "do whatever God is telling you to do" are still the final word, but unless you are walking to Jerusalem to be crucified and 100% certain that is God's will for you at this time, my strong recommendation to any man in this situation is to avoid picking a fight you can't win, and that might destroy your family. Keep a low profile, or get the hell out of Dodge. There's a big wide world out there, and lots of people that will listen to what you have to say. Just not so many in a government-certified corporate church.
 
Perhaps enough of us in the Austin metro area might be able to start our own nondenominational church one day. If my wife ever comes around on this issue, I don't see my church going so easy on me. Of course we would have to find a pastor willing to take on that role, who would also be willing to relocate. Even better, he could have a live stream at various campuses around the nation! At one time, churches used to start up in strip malls. Nowadays, we see them starting up in movie theaters!

I possess other music skills besides trombone. I can play guitar, and before I got married, I once led worship at a small group that met at my church on Monday evenings, that was doing some "Navigators" program. I also was asked to accompany an elderly lady on the guitar, as she sang "Great is Thy Faithfulness", at the Second Baptist Church in Constanta, Romania, where Daniel Fadorian was the pastor, and at the time, he was president of the Constanta Baptist Association. My wife and I have sung duets in different churches, although she doesn't like to sing nowadays, but you never know. My older son is pretty good on the piano as well.

I won't promote or defend polygamy at my current church, but if there is a chance to start a new church, I will most certainly ask a few of the people in my church who are supportive of polygamy, to support us in getting that church started, if and when the time comes. I understand that Adam Lyons lives in the Austin area. If we start this church, I am going to see if I can figure out where he lives, so that a few of us can go share the gospel with him. or maybe I will just go walking down the street that he lives on, holding hands with my wives. That should get his attention! I have been trained at level 3 in Evangelism Explosion, and I have also had some "Way of the Master" training. Maybe we could find some Muslims who might be willing to check out a Christian church that accepts polygamy! I noticed that a lot of Muslims like to jump into forums where polygamy is discussed and put in their two cents. I can see how polygamy might open doors that other Christians will never see opened. Who knows? If this thing takes off, we could start our own little Bible college and get Dr. William Luck, and perhaps Paige Patterson to run it.

You know, I have had all these ideas for how my current church could experience growth, that I basically stole from my former church that I was a part of for 18 years, and I have seen them implement some of those ideas, gradually over time, but that church that I stole these ideas from was really on the cutting edge. They had a strong commitment to Evangelism outreach, and the results were undeniable. The messages that the pastor preached consistently encouraged the flock to go and reach out to friends, neighbors, coworkers, etc. and tell them the Good News. People were always encouraged to be bold in their witness. Occasionally the pastor would mention someone whose life was in ruins, and who was invited to come to a service, and gave their hearts to Christ, and the pastor would say something to the effect of, "all because someone from Prestonwood (the name of that church) cared enough to reach out and invite a friend." That sort of encouragement was contagious! I don't hear that at all in the church that I currently attend. There are different ways that a church can grow. I highly doubt that a church that preaches that polygamy is acceptable, is ever going to grow, by stealing sheep from other churches. If that church grows, it will have to be organic growth.
 
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