If you can get your enemy to do your work for you, all the better. I wouldn't expect much support out of a Republican anyway.
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Making Progress on the church acceptance front
- Thread starter Daniel DeLuca
- Start date
If you can get your enemy to do your work for you, all the better. I wouldn't expect much support out of a Republican anyway.
Looking at this guy Talarico's positions, I should run against this guy. He leans far to the left, and he only won by the smallest of margins.
It pretty much happens every time. Sorry.
On the other hand many here have testified how something like this has opened up new opportunities for growth and to follow God in ways that they did not think possible before.
Well, I haven't been kicked out yet. I recall reading Mormon testimonies of how they were kicked out when they tried to effect change from within. I wouldn't compare the SBC structure to the LDS church though. I am still working on an army to back me or whomever might face church discipline, lest it comes to that. If all they are going to do, is remove me from a post I reluctantly accepted in the first place, I am going to act like it is a major blow, but at the same time, I am relieved that that is the extent to which they have gone.
That was merely round one, my brother. Just getting the range.
Don’t get me wrong, we are fully behind you, but ain’t nobody betting the rent on your chances. Keep your mind open to what you will do post-SBC. Maybe you will take a some fellow free-thinkers with you.
I’d agree. You’ve just become public enemy numero uno. When your time comes, if they’ll sit down with you to officially talk it over and give you the boot, make sure that you have someone else as a neutral observer. Adult male in good standing. That was the best advice I got when I was going thru the same thing. Also get a recording if you can manage it.
Don’t be shocked if they never open their Bible either. This won’t be about scripture, but about uncontested power.
Don’t be shocked if they never open their Bible either. This won’t be about scripture, but about uncontested power.
If the trajectory holds, the best you can hope for is church discipline. In fact, if they pursue you, that is what you need to adamantly push for so that you are 'forced' to defend yourself Biblically. Fact is, they don't want that conversation as it will expose them.
Praying for wisdom, guidance and the Hand of Yah!
Fact! I’m convinced that a lot of (especially older) pastors have been confronted with or exposed to poly at one point or another. I’d be interested to ask them how many times this topic has been brought up. It definitely would expose them.
Good point. Make them follow the formal Biblical process in Matthew 18. I guarantee they won't want to, as that would require them to be honest with the church about all this and expose them to your ideas; and thats the last theing they want. They actually just want you to go away quietly so they can tell lies about why you left or just pretent you never existed.
But honestly, you should steel yourself for dissapointment, the SBC was pozzed decades ago. Most people just didn't realize it. But that doesn't mean God can't use this for good. Pray for wisdom.
I agree with the guys that this will expose them. But I have issue with the thinking they know they will be exposed. Many people believe man-made rules and regulations are God-rules and regulations. Pharisees and Sadducees were as good as our current state of clergy in creating and defending man-made ordinances.
Says a lot, doesn't it?...
Is 60 old enough to address this? I can tell you in all honesty that in the years I served in fulltime pastoral ministry, I never once encountered an argument for polygyny from someone personally. I read about it superficially but never had a discussion about it that I can recall. It wasn't until I was questioned about it that I studied the subject in depth and then changed my beliefs and teaching. And for believing and teaching what is written, it was me that got the left boot of fellowship. So don't be too hard on the old preachers guys. Shalom
You are quite the exception.
Thank you for being willing to change.
And that is precisely what I am hoping does NOT happen with my pastor. By not having you in the pulpit, we have one less influential leaders who can drive this train, as we work to oil the gears. You wouldn't happen to be able to get into the ears of anyone big in Christian circles, like say, Wayne Watson, or in athletics, like Ezekiel Elliot of Tiger Woods, would you?
OK, well, this new worship minister put up the obstinate front yesterday, and said that not only does he agree with the pastor, but that he will never change. He employed an Ad Hominem attack, accusing me of having faulty motives, and said that the pastor's sermon was directed at me. I objected saying that what I have been saying is not new, because the pastor said that if it is New then it is not true, and if it is true, then it is not new. I told him that Martin Luther said that there was nothing wrong with polygamy. He denied that.
Well, we had our final event of the year for the particular ministry from which I was asked to step down. The funny thing is that the Discipleship Minister had said that he would either tell the Children's Ministry team that I had volunteered to step down, or he would allow me to do so. I told him that I wished for him to tell them that I had been asked to step down, to which he replied "Fair Enough". So I encountered a fellow volunteer in that ministry last night, and told him that I had been asked to step down, and I told him why. I said that I hold dangerous ideas. Then I said that two and a half years ago, God revealed something to me, that doesn't go along with what the church has been teaching on a particular topic. He inquired further, and when I responded with "polygamy", he was shocked. I warned him to keep quiet about it, and that I didn't want him to lose his job at the church, but he agreed that I could set up a lunch get together with him to discuss this.
So while my wife and my little boy were attending, as my wife was not asked to step down, I attended a session held by our pastor, where he was talking about the Holy Spirit. The pastor and the new worship leader were there, and they saw me, but didn't say anything to me. I sat down next to a little old lady whose husband has been recovering from a stroke he had about a year and a half ago, and we talked, and she shared how his progress was coming along. As other people came in and filled seats I introduced myself to people I had never met before. The worship leader led in "How Great Is Our God" and "How Great Thou Art", sort of as a medley, and then sang a song I don't think I had ever heard before, before the pastor got up, and said a few things. He said that we were going to watch a video, and then have discussion time. After the video, the people at my table nominated me to lead the discussion. LOL!!! After leading discussion through the first two questions, I tried to hand off leadership to someone else at the table, but no one else wanted it! There was a woman at the table who was hard of hearing, and I can project my voice pretty loud. I didn't want to, but I had no choice! The whole room was able to hear me guide the discussion, and follow what the pastor had to say. I joked with a gentleman who was at the table with me, because he was unmarried, and there were five ladies at our table. He had never heard of Isaiah 4:1!
After that session, I went to get my little boy, and wait for my wife to finish volunteering. While I was waiting for my wife, I talked to another volunteer, and was able to tell her, why I was asked to step down. It was great! She asked me if I was talking about polygamy under the New Covenant, and I said, well, unless you are a bishop, deacon, or elder. She exclaimed, "Really!" I warned her that my ideas are dangerous, which is why I was asked to step down. She said, "so they are afraid that you might infect us." I said that from their perspective, I am like a cancer that could metastasize, but the way I see it, monogamy is like a house of cards getting swept away by the winds of truth. I said that if I really believe something, I have to be willing to pay the price.
I LOVE having opportunities to talk with people one on one, even if they disagree with me. I don't love getting subjected to Ad Hominem attacks, but the worship leader stated that we do agree with one another on just about every other issue. I was left in thought on the drive home from church yesterday afternoon. I don't win at every encounter, when I spar verbally, but I know that I will have more opportunities, in the future. As I was driving, I was unable to pay full attention to what my wife wanted to say. I explained that sometimes I need time alone with my thoughts. She understood. My worship leader needs to understand that facts are stubborn things. We know what Martin Luther had to say about polygamy, and even if he had not said those things, the history of polygamy in Christianity, is not new. I don't think that he still wants to have lunch with me. I am perfectly willing to sit down with him, and ostensibly let him show me where I am wrong. We shall see. I will keep everybody posted.
Well, we had our final event of the year for the particular ministry from which I was asked to step down. The funny thing is that the Discipleship Minister had said that he would either tell the Children's Ministry team that I had volunteered to step down, or he would allow me to do so. I told him that I wished for him to tell them that I had been asked to step down, to which he replied "Fair Enough". So I encountered a fellow volunteer in that ministry last night, and told him that I had been asked to step down, and I told him why. I said that I hold dangerous ideas. Then I said that two and a half years ago, God revealed something to me, that doesn't go along with what the church has been teaching on a particular topic. He inquired further, and when I responded with "polygamy", he was shocked. I warned him to keep quiet about it, and that I didn't want him to lose his job at the church, but he agreed that I could set up a lunch get together with him to discuss this.
So while my wife and my little boy were attending, as my wife was not asked to step down, I attended a session held by our pastor, where he was talking about the Holy Spirit. The pastor and the new worship leader were there, and they saw me, but didn't say anything to me. I sat down next to a little old lady whose husband has been recovering from a stroke he had about a year and a half ago, and we talked, and she shared how his progress was coming along. As other people came in and filled seats I introduced myself to people I had never met before. The worship leader led in "How Great Is Our God" and "How Great Thou Art", sort of as a medley, and then sang a song I don't think I had ever heard before, before the pastor got up, and said a few things. He said that we were going to watch a video, and then have discussion time. After the video, the people at my table nominated me to lead the discussion. LOL!!! After leading discussion through the first two questions, I tried to hand off leadership to someone else at the table, but no one else wanted it! There was a woman at the table who was hard of hearing, and I can project my voice pretty loud. I didn't want to, but I had no choice! The whole room was able to hear me guide the discussion, and follow what the pastor had to say. I joked with a gentleman who was at the table with me, because he was unmarried, and there were five ladies at our table. He had never heard of Isaiah 4:1!
After that session, I went to get my little boy, and wait for my wife to finish volunteering. While I was waiting for my wife, I talked to another volunteer, and was able to tell her, why I was asked to step down. It was great! She asked me if I was talking about polygamy under the New Covenant, and I said, well, unless you are a bishop, deacon, or elder. She exclaimed, "Really!" I warned her that my ideas are dangerous, which is why I was asked to step down. She said, "so they are afraid that you might infect us." I said that from their perspective, I am like a cancer that could metastasize, but the way I see it, monogamy is like a house of cards getting swept away by the winds of truth. I said that if I really believe something, I have to be willing to pay the price.
I LOVE having opportunities to talk with people one on one, even if they disagree with me. I don't love getting subjected to Ad Hominem attacks, but the worship leader stated that we do agree with one another on just about every other issue. I was left in thought on the drive home from church yesterday afternoon. I don't win at every encounter, when I spar verbally, but I know that I will have more opportunities, in the future. As I was driving, I was unable to pay full attention to what my wife wanted to say. I explained that sometimes I need time alone with my thoughts. She understood. My worship leader needs to understand that facts are stubborn things. We know what Martin Luther had to say about polygamy, and even if he had not said those things, the history of polygamy in Christianity, is not new. I don't think that he still wants to have lunch with me. I am perfectly willing to sit down with him, and ostensibly let him show me where I am wrong. We shall see. I will keep everybody posted.
I just got a new email from the Discipleship minister. He apparently didn't like the fact that I followed up with the worship pastor on last week's discussion, and that I attended the pastor's series, and he claimed that I dominated the discussion group, and he said that it seemed to be an aggressive fashion. He misrepresented my position, saying that I insist that polygamy is viable and a Biblical alternative. He proceeded to remind e of the pastor and the church's position, and claimed that it is in concert with the Bible. For some reason, he felt the need to say that the pastor does not support one wife and multiple husbands. Then as a side comment, he mentioned that polygamy is illegal. Then he closed by acknowledging that he cannot insist that I change my views but asked me to stop promoting polygamy.
I responded by telling him that last night had nothing to do with polygamy, and that my conversation with the worship leader was just a follow up from the previous week's conversation. He made a big deal out of the fact that this was my first time to attend the pastor's series, but the truth is, I have attended other events hosted by the pastor on Sunday nights. I pointed out that the only reason I could not attend before, was because I was participating in that ministry which I was asked to step down from, and the only reason I was there, was because my wife and son were in that ministry. He made that point that I had asked for a public debate on this topic, and I responded that I never suggested that I be one of the participants in the debate. I explained that I had suggested to a previous worship leader, that we host a debate on the age of the earth, and he thought that was a great idea. I stated that if the church does not want to have this debate, I can understand why.
He claimed that I dominated the discussion and that it seemed like an aggressive fashion. I responded by saying that one of the participants was hard of hearing, and had asked me to speak up, and that I tried talking softer, but she was unable to understand what I was saying. I also told him that I tried to pass leadership off to someone else, but that no one at the table wanted to facilitate, and I was also trying to keep one of the little old ladies at our table, from dominating the entire discussion.
I reminded him that I had already discovered that there are other people in the church who disagree with the pastor on this issue of polygamy, but that they have been intimidated into silence. I also told him that I had been led to believe that the worship leader was willing to sit down and have lunch with me to discuss this. I told him that I am willing to have someone sit down with an open Bible, and show me where I am wrong. I said that I will never say that I will never come around on this issue. I also said that the pastor himself has said that if there is something he has said that disagrees with Scripture, we should stick with the Scripture. It will be interesting to see how he responds.
I responded by telling him that last night had nothing to do with polygamy, and that my conversation with the worship leader was just a follow up from the previous week's conversation. He made a big deal out of the fact that this was my first time to attend the pastor's series, but the truth is, I have attended other events hosted by the pastor on Sunday nights. I pointed out that the only reason I could not attend before, was because I was participating in that ministry which I was asked to step down from, and the only reason I was there, was because my wife and son were in that ministry. He made that point that I had asked for a public debate on this topic, and I responded that I never suggested that I be one of the participants in the debate. I explained that I had suggested to a previous worship leader, that we host a debate on the age of the earth, and he thought that was a great idea. I stated that if the church does not want to have this debate, I can understand why.
He claimed that I dominated the discussion and that it seemed like an aggressive fashion. I responded by saying that one of the participants was hard of hearing, and had asked me to speak up, and that I tried talking softer, but she was unable to understand what I was saying. I also told him that I tried to pass leadership off to someone else, but that no one at the table wanted to facilitate, and I was also trying to keep one of the little old ladies at our table, from dominating the entire discussion.
I reminded him that I had already discovered that there are other people in the church who disagree with the pastor on this issue of polygamy, but that they have been intimidated into silence. I also told him that I had been led to believe that the worship leader was willing to sit down and have lunch with me to discuss this. I told him that I am willing to have someone sit down with an open Bible, and show me where I am wrong. I said that I will never say that I will never come around on this issue. I also said that the pastor himself has said that if there is something he has said that disagrees with Scripture, we should stick with the Scripture. It will be interesting to see how he responds.
You need to understand that you are defacto leading a revolt. It may not feel like it, you may not want to believe it, but don’t be surprised when they treat you as if you are.
What they always fear is that the dreaded disease of polygyny will spread, and you have proven to them that you are a carrier and highly contagious.
Yep. Don’t be surprised if they try to trump up other charges so that they can use those publicly to oust you for the other private disagreements.
Word to the wise, don’t leave your wife out of this! Fortify yourself in her heart. They will most certainly try to use her as leverage against you.
Word to the wise, don’t leave your wife out of this! Fortify yourself in her heart. They will most certainly try to use her as leverage against you.
Or simple revenge. More than once a church has tried to get a wife to leave a husband who believed in polygamy.
Yeah, he responded and it is looking very dicey. He wants a direct answer to whether I will stop promoting polygamy at the church. I did not give him the yes or no answer that he requested, because I cannot say that I will not promote the truth. I don't think he will like my response. I said that I have never promoted false doctrine, and that I will focus my effort on this issue of marrying divorced women, and I used Rom 7:2 and I Cor 7:39. The SBC is too tolerant of this sin. I repeated back what he said about the pastor not in favor of a woman having multiple husbands, and I said that this is one area in which we can find agreement, and I said that I hoped that he would not interpret my quest for truth, as promoting a viewpoint. BTW, I am not doing a Cut and paste, because his emails are sent with a notice of confidentiality.