She likes the church and is sad to see us shoved out the door, but I think she understands.
EDIT: Mainly she is concerned that we won't be accepted into any church.
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Making Progress on the church acceptance front
- Thread starter Daniel DeLuca
- Start date
EDIT: Mainly she is concerned that we won't be accepted into any church.
Is she doing ok emotionally with everything?
Yes, as far as I can tell. She understands that it is the people that are what make a church. I don't think that we are cut off from any friends at the church, minus one lovely young lady.
We were both a bit concerned about how the church was treating our older son. He didn't have a lot of friends there, because most of the teenagers that he had gotten to know, left the church. The youth pastor that he really liked, left the church, and he didn't care too much for the new one. The church requested that I accompany him everywhere, even to the bathroom. Some of that, he brought on himself, but that was because my wife and I were in rehearsal and they had nothing available for young people in his age bracket at that time, so he was unsupervised, and he didn't think he was doing anything wrong. They accused him of vandalism, and we requested to see the video that they claimed they had proof of him doing so, but they refused to show us. Then they changed their story to claim that they had proof of them reprimanding him for doing so, which doesn't prove anything. Needless to say, he didn't like it in the least bit, and it was very difficult for me to keep track of him. One of my friends from the orchestra said that he believed that they were trying to make us feel unwelcome.
When the church shut down because of Covid, they started this new thing where the children's minister was shown on the screen giving a little sermonette to the kiddos. Both of my boys hated that; I didn't care too much for it either, because it took time away from worship, reducing the number of songs from four down to three. Having been part of a mega-church in Dallas, I know how important that worship time is. I feel like I was not really happy with where the church was when we started going there, but always had hopes that over time, it would get better. Seven and a half years later, it hasn't. I could go on, but hey! We made some good friends there, and we will probably see some of them from time to time.
Having said all that, the many issues that we had with the church, softens the blow significantly.
Well, that’s good. Sometimes, when there is an actual change or loss associated with plural, the deeper emotions come out from it. Plural for us wives can be a roller coaster and, for me, those jolts can bring a downward slope that takes time to work through.
It would be best to expect, down the road, some fallout from your wife over this. Emotions are as unpredictable as they are certain to come flooding in.
I’ve said it many times, the enemy hates and fears poly. He will play Whack-A-Mole with anyone who sticks their head above the Monogamy Ceiling.
I’ve said it many times, the enemy hates and fears poly. He will play Whack-A-Mole with anyone who sticks their head above the Monogamy Ceiling.
As am I.
Indeed. The Adversary is intent on twisting the minds of everyone to convince them that it is associated with him. At this moment in time, my younger daughter is giving every impression that the Adversary has taken up residence in her head. She's resisting my authority at every turn, and her favorite current tactic is condemning me related to plural marriage.
I have two comments related to this paragraph and one in response to @FollowingHim's hidden comment:
- At the risk of being redundant, I want to circle back, as did @FollowingHim, to addressing the title you gave to this thread: I want to strongly encourage you to break free of the shackles of seeking the acceptance of made-by-men churches, as that is a topsy-turvy arrangement in which mortal humans have elevated their standards over those within our Lord's Word. There is something about the manner in which you describe how you approach gaining church acceptance/approval that reminds me of how gay men so desperately sought societal acceptance back in the 1960s and earlier. Is that the appropriate stance for someone who sees the truth about Biblical polygamy -- having to bow and scrape to get the approval of the piety police?
- Only time will tell the true nature of the friendships you've formed with the people in the church whom you label as friends, and I can promise you I have more than once felt the sting of being snubbed indirectly by a woman who, up until then, seemed to be someone with whom I was compatible, but I have to admit to being somewhat surprised that you would still count her among those you would label as friends. Is it just because you still hold out some hope that she will, as they say, see the light and come around to your way of thinking about what is possible between the two of you? She may be lovely in the looks department, but the manner in which she threw you to the wolves is anything but lovely.
- I have mixed feelings about @FollowingHim's most recent lengthy response to you about all this. I share with him a sense that you failed to comprehend the various warning signs that should have told you to take your foot off the accelerator, but I also challenge the notion that women are just damsels in distress who can simultaneously justify expecting that men should do all the pursuing while expecting that men should also protect them from such pursuits when they're not entirely comfortable with the nature of the pursuing. The message becomes, "You have to take all the risks, and I get to punish you when you take a risk I don't want you to take that I get to let myself off the hook for not giving you clear messages about not wanting you to pursue me." The whole thing rewards women for being lazy and irresponsible. This isn't exclusive to polygamy, but I do want us as supporters of each other to remember that we have enough detractors from without that we don't need to take up the arguments of those detractors. Yes, @Daniel DeLuca, I think you engineered yourself into your own train wreck, but I also think the rest of us are at risk if we don't recognize that you were to some degree punished not so much for the manner of your pursuit but the fact that it involved polygamy. Methinks we worry too much about how one man's behavior will hurt the cause of polygamy, but I don't see or hear anyone in all of mainstream media advancing the notion that Andrew Cuomo is going to damage the reputation of monogamy.
It's not necessarily a poly thing. I've heard from a lot of single men about being run out of a church when they attempt to meet women there. Rather many pastors are quick to play white knight to women who are approached by insufficiently attractive or socially awkward men. A problem made all the worse when they, for whatever reason, behave creepily.
I wonder what happened to the biblical principle of keeping matters private; of talking to the person concerned about something and not disclosing it to anyone else? The book of Proverbs has warnings against gossiping and even if someone sinned in some way, the instructions in e.g. Matthew 18:15-20 are clear about talking exclusively to the other person first before involving anyone else. What's going on with these people that private matters are going directly to church overseers and they become involved? Do they get their theology from Dr Phil?
I don't think this situation would be considered gossip; but is skipping a few steps normal adults should be able to handle vis a vi Matthew 18. Pastors are white knights who must save the poor virtuous damzel from these awful men who would dare attempt to make wives of them. I all but guarantee you this church doesn't teach Matthew 18.
But it's not really a pastor thing, women do this sort of thing all the time in various contexts whether that be running to the HS guidance councilor, to the college kangaroo court, or to their employer's HR; wherever they can find amiable authorities to retaliate against whatever perceived slight/affront they've endured.
This is true. It seems like these entities act as
surrogate fathers. A young woman’s natural instinct would be to take a matter like this to her father, not confront the man himself.
That's a really good point. Our present system of mating is quite unnatural in that regard. Prior generations would have expected the man to approach the woman's father first.
Which is to say, I fell into the equalism trap in viewing the situation.
And they are acting like surrogate fathers, that is a historically common trap 'churches' fall into.
Steve mentioned
"I’ve said it many times, the enemy hates and fears poly. He will play Whack-A-Mole with anyone who sticks their head above the Monogamy Ceiling".
I think that is true, but the thing the enemy REALLY HATES and FEARS is GODLY PATRIARCHY. Polygyny is just a sub-part of patriarchy.
"I’ve said it many times, the enemy hates and fears poly. He will play Whack-A-Mole with anyone who sticks their head above the Monogamy Ceiling".
I think that is true, but the thing the enemy REALLY HATES and FEARS is GODLY PATRIARCHY. Polygyny is just a sub-part of patriarchy.
There is a dynamic in polygyny done right that surpasses any mono patriarchy.
Steve,
I think you are on to something there. A husband and father leading a well ordered and fruitful polygynous family probably reflects and displays the glory of God the Father in a fuller and richer way than a similar man leading a smaller family well.
It is kind of like saying a godly father of ten children displays patriarchy in a richer way than a godly father of two children.
That isn't to knock the small family guy. Isaac and Jacob were both patriarchs of the Faith. Isaac had one wife and two sons. Jacob had two/four wives and a lot of kids. Both had some success, some failings, but were ultimately commended for their faith. Jacob had more impact.
On the other hand a disordered and ungodly man leading a large family can also leave a lot of devastation in his wake.
I think you are on to something there. A husband and father leading a well ordered and fruitful polygynous family probably reflects and displays the glory of God the Father in a fuller and richer way than a similar man leading a smaller family well.
It is kind of like saying a godly father of ten children displays patriarchy in a richer way than a godly father of two children.
That isn't to knock the small family guy. Isaac and Jacob were both patriarchs of the Faith. Isaac had one wife and two sons. Jacob had two/four wives and a lot of kids. Both had some success, some failings, but were ultimately commended for their faith. Jacob had more impact.
On the other hand a disordered and ungodly man leading a large family can also leave a lot of devastation in his wake.
Steve,
You said: "There is a dynamic in polygyny done right that surpasses any mono patriarchy."
I think that is right. Still, I regard polygyny as subordinate to patriarchy. Polygyny is lawful, and can be done in a way that honors and pleases God. Still, it is normally OPTIONAL.
I don't think patriarchy is optional for the man who seeks to please the Most High. It seems totally mandatory.
Even the pathetic childless man like myself is still called to lead, instruct, protect, and provide for his wife, reflecting the character of God our Father, and Christ our Master.
I should probably reflect it more deeply by adopting children with my wife, and if God wills to bless me with an additional wife, to do my part to have children with her as well.
Still, I must do what I can with what I have where I am.
You said: "There is a dynamic in polygyny done right that surpasses any mono patriarchy."
I think that is right. Still, I regard polygyny as subordinate to patriarchy. Polygyny is lawful, and can be done in a way that honors and pleases God. Still, it is normally OPTIONAL.
I don't think patriarchy is optional for the man who seeks to please the Most High. It seems totally mandatory.
Even the pathetic childless man like myself is still called to lead, instruct, protect, and provide for his wife, reflecting the character of God our Father, and Christ our Master.
I should probably reflect it more deeply by adopting children with my wife, and if God wills to bless me with an additional wife, to do my part to have children with her as well.
Still, I must do what I can with what I have where I am.
This is all true, but I’m looking deeper. Into the spiritual aspects.
Ecclesiastes 4:12 (KJV)
And if one prevail against him, two shall withstand him; and a threefold cord is not quickly broken.
Again, if properly done, the spiritual strength of three is much stronger than two.
In a braided cord, 3 is many times stronger than two, not just half again as strong like one might think.
But I keep repeating, IF DONE RIGHT, because most marriages have very minimal spiritual strength and throwing another wive’s spirit into the mix can actually be a negative.
Not that I have an example, we are still working on it.
Steve,
I can see what you are saying, and agree there is merit to it. Polygyny can potentially make the whole family stronger and richer. There can be unique blessings that go along with it.
It can also be a train wreck of great horror. Great care is required, though great good can come of it.
I can see what you are saying, and agree there is merit to it. Polygyny can potentially make the whole family stronger and richer. There can be unique blessings that go along with it.
It can also be a train wreck of great horror. Great care is required, though great good can come of it.
Too true.