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I've been banned from my church.

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Thus in all ways except belief in a particular doctrine, I am acceptable to the church...

...What's fascinating though, is they can overlook doctrinal differences on infant/believer baptism, on tithing, on Sunday Sabbath observance and so on...

...I have to be silenced.
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All of which strikes me as a pretty reasonable, even textbook, example of what "idolatry" really means, Hugh:

putting man's false tradition not only AHEAD of what Scripture clearly SAYS -- but in SPITE of it.

They've made it very clear what matters most -- and it's NOT His Word. And, no offense, but why do you think it is that they will now listen to you, but not Him?

Very much like the rebellion that it is, idolatry is not something that He takes lightly. Neither should we!

Finally, even if one ignores what Paul told Timothy (I Tim. 4:1-3) --

Now the Spirit speaks expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;
Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;
Forbidding to marry...

there remains what James (4:4) had to say about idolatry and adultery:

Adulterers and adulteresses! Do you not know that friendship with the world is enmity with God? Whoever therefore wants to be a friend of the world makes himself an enemy of God.

Suit yourself, obviously. Or take the hint.
 
jay c said:
Consider Paul's ministry to the gentiles. All believers should teach that there is no difference between Jew and gentile so far as salvation is concerned. Not all Jewish believers of his day were called to be apostles to the gentiles. Some might have been called to be apostles only to the Jews in a particular city in Judea. Certainly they should teach that gentiles are acceptable to God, but that probably wouldn't be the focus of their ministry and they might even rightly de-emphasize it and ask people not to make a big deal of it to avoid distracting people from their central message. Should Paul not fellowship with such a person? If they were teaching that gentiles were unclean as Peter was doing by his actions, then that's a problem (although not necessarily one to cause disfellowship).
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Teaching about polygamy is not making a big deal out of it. Teaching ALL of Scripture serves to equip people to help them follow and understand that central message. Otherwise, there's no point in teaching only about Christ's death and resurrection to someone who's committing adultery or someone who's being instructed by God to take an additional wife and yet his church is telling him to do otherwise which would lead to that person disobeying God. Maybe how you teach polygamy may help, like explaining to people about how the world or a culture can influence thought, even up to the point of distorting or going against SCripture. Perhaps, talk about the common misconceptions about polygamy, etc. It may serve good to anticipate how some people will react to such teachings but sometimes you have to teach God's word when it's convenient and even when it's inconvenient. We are not called or promised to live in relaxation in this world.


2 Timothy 3:14-15
14But as for you, continue in what you have learned and have become convinced of, because you know those from whom you learned it, 15and how from infancy you have known the holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus.

2 Timothy 3:16
16All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, 17so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.


2 Timothy 3:12-13 12In fact, everyone who wants to live a godly life in Christ Jesus will be persecuted, 13while evil men and impostors will go from bad to worse, deceiving and being deceived.
 
You're just way too quick to pull that "Adultery/Idolatry" trigger Mark. If that's the case, then ANY wrong doctrine is "Adultery/Idolatry" and I'm not sure how you can fellowship with anyone.
 
If that's the case, then ANY wrong doctrine is "Adultery/Idolatry" and I'm not sure how you can fellowship with anyone.
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That is NOT the case, Hugh, and I sincerely hope you know better. After all, you yourself said they don't seem to care NEARLY so much about baptism, or the Sabbath, or even precious mammon. So why this -- something about which Scripture is arguably even more clear?

But clearly a re-read of Matthew 23 would be helpful. If you cannot understand how He was correct in calling the Pharisees "hypocrites", as well as "blind" and "fools", then it's no wonder we disagree about why "teaching as doctrine the traditions of men" amounts to making the "commandments of God of no effect". (same concept, but Matthew 15 and Mark 7)

I take those things seriously because He does.
 
I dunno Mark.

Whenever "clearly" is applied, in the way you're using it, I tend to be anything but clear. I've read the scriptures in multiple versions, multiple times each and lost track of how often I've read them. Being instructed to read a passage as if I hadn't read it, is tough to hear because I assure you I have read it.

Did I get everything out of it I should?

No.

That being said I would remind you that several prophets went through the selection of wives, and raising of children. Some the death of their wives, getting thrown down into cisterns, plucked out of them and so on prior to their lobbying efforts ending. I'm just not one to say "Don't see that do ya? Well have it your way, I'm hittin' the road you great whore of Babylon."

It seems to me I have a greater duty than that.
 
Whoaaaa! Hugh & Mark!

Seems like you're both a couple of neat guys getting more excited than necessary.

I'm reading both your posts, and it looks to me as thoughn the difference is this simple:

Mark is talking end-game conclusions about folks.
Hugh thinks that as long as there's life there's hope, and isn't ready to give up on them just yet.

So may I observe that our Master Jesus (by whatever name you insist He must be called) did indeed call the religious rulers some names, and go through the temple with a whip. Fair dinkum, Mark.

But He also ministered among them, despite their opposition, for 3.5 years or so, trying every way He could to break through their plaster-of-Paris encased skulls! So good on you, too, Hugh.

Yeah, if all else fails, Hugh will have to walk away, and has already expressed his understanding of and willingness to do that. But no-one else has the right, IMHO, to tell him when to "give up". We've all heard of folks who gave their hearts to God after someone prayed for them for 40 years or more!

If Hugh has that heart for this body of believers, as you, Mark, have that heart for your erstwhile wife 'B', and I do for my Audrey, then lets hold him UP, and pray for his success. Surely God has some wheat among whatever tares may inhabit that body of believers.

Now you can BOTH whip around and tell me to butt out! :lol:
 
Forgive me, but in that I am confronting a church, and getting the boot in the process, I tend to be geared towards saying what I think. :o
 
Hugh McBryde said:
Forgive me, but in that I am confronting a church, and getting the boot in the process, I tend to be geared towards saying what I think. :o
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On that score, Hugh, we are in wholehearted agreement. Perhaps our experiences tend to make the issues involved a bit 'personal' in each case.

And -- as usual ;) -- thanks, Cecil, for your input, and your perspective.

Blessings,

Mark
 
Psalms 133:1

Behold, how good and how pleasant it is for brethren to dwell together in unity!

Blessings
 
That's the funny part. Now I've got all these ministers that were ignoring the problem, taking interest in it, so I really don't know yet. You could all fly up here and visit the church this Sunday :o
 
It's funny, most of the responses consist of "You did this wrong" followed by telling me I should have taken it to presbytery. Presbytery has already told me I can't take it to them. These ministers have a great desire to get in the last word, and have control issues, the letters could have all been form letters as far as the content is concerned. They then tell me they don't want to hear from me anymore.

I have a feeling the dialogue is going to stretch out a bit.

I don't feel like a brave man. All of this is very taxing physically. I'm beginning to go numb on my left side when I am dealing with them. Literally numb. The ER says they are Transient Ischemic Attacks or "mini strokes," the effects of which are not permanent, but which put me in a higher risk category for a real full blown one. I'm not looking for sympathy when mentioning this but I don't know how much capacity I have when it comes to going it alone against the church, and the denomination. I'll take it as far as I can.
 
Valiant efforts are seldom appreciated until long after the event. In the course of the effort it is hard work, strife, loneliness and spiritual attack. I admire you for your consistent, faithful effort. Keep your eyes on the prize. I am praying for you.

John
 
Only in terms of debating doctrine. They wish to portray me as being a physical threat and "an angry man" through anonymously fearful people so that they can say they are afraid of that supposed physical threat.

The "angry man" ploy is an equivocation between being angry in a justifiable way, and being constantly angry as a general condition. Citing a condition of general anger allows them to use injunctions like this:
Make no friendship with an angry man; and with a furious man thou shalt not go: Lest thou learn his ways, and get a snare to thy soul." - Proverbs 22
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A man who is angry, is not necessarily an angry man. The two things are different. Most people don't make that distinction though.
 
When all is said and done, you may rest upon the reality that you have done all you could. The accountability is between them and God. You will have clean hands and God will give you another task. No retirement in the kingdom. :-D
 
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