General Is the rejection of biblical beliefs such as polygyny a salvation issue?

[Kai T]

I think I understand your position correctly now. What you are saying is that we don't have to perfectly understand everything to be saved. However, when presented with the truth, we must accept the truth with certainty, as if we certainly believe the opposite of truth, we have rejected God's Word and therefore rejected God. However, if we are unsure about something, we should avoid coming to a firm conclusion and not state one way or the other, because then we have not rejected God's word. It is perfectly acceptable to be uneducated and have little knowledge of God - we just have to accept the correct view on the matters we do focus on. It is only if we clearly reject the truth in any area that God has revealed to us that we will not be saved. I think that is a fair summary of your position, if I am wrong correct me.

Yes, you have stated my position well.

Most importantly, I can't see it in scripture. Scripture seems to indicate salvation is far simpler than this.

Erm. How does Scripture describe salvation according to your interpretation?

It expects too much perfection. Humans make mistakes. We will be wrong sometimes. If we lose our salvation for firmly believing something that turns out to have been a mistake, who can be saved? How could we ever have assurance of salvation, since the possibility remains that we might be wrong somewhere?

That might be the reason why the Book of Phillipian asked us to work out our salvation with fear and trembling? Philippians 2:12, "
12So then, my beloved, just as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your salvation with fear and trembling; 13for it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure."
This does suggest some work to be done on the part of the Believers themselves.
Do you have Scriptual backing for firmly believing in something false but yet still get saved?

It incentivises lukewarmness. If taking a firm stand on something risks the possibility that we might be taking a firm stand in the wrong direction and therefore lose our salvation, it is safer to take NO firm stands on anything, and to not investigate anything deeply enough to form a firm opinion. But we are told in Revelation to be cold or hot, but not lukewarm. In Revelation, it is the lukewarm who are rejected, while both the cold and hot (ie those in completely opposite but fervent positions) who are saved.

I don't agree with this. What we are shown by God, we are 100% sure - God made it EVIDENT to us This makes us passionate about what we are sure. For example, when your forum opened my eyes about polygyny and when I am sure it IS biblical, it made me passionate about speaking out the truth and living the truth. I tell everyone it IS the truth despite their immense skepticism. But I don't preach anything about infant baptism because I am not sure. Does it make me lukewarm? I don't think so. You can see the fire for the truth in the eyes of many on biblicalfamilies.org because they have been exposed to the truth.

But, does failing that test always result in a loss of salvation? That goes a step further.

If you reject it and haven't repented before you die, I think the answer is yes: this highly likely might result in a loss of salvation, unfortunately.

 

[FollowingHim]

Erm. How does Scripture describe salvation according to your interpretation?

"That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved." Romans 10:9

Do you have Scriptual backing for firmly believing in something false but yet still get saved?

No, but I don't believe you have scriptural backing for the opposite position either. In this particular case the burden of proof is on the one asserting that salvation is lost for believing anything false. The above verse clearly backs my simpler understanding of salvation, your more demanding position needs scriptural proof. And I think you already realise that there are not clear scriptures to this effect, because you yourself are uncertain about it, and this uncertainty is why you have asked for feedback on the issue, hence this entire discussion:

If you reject it and haven't repented before you die, I think the answer is yes: this highly likely might result in a loss of salvation, unfortunately.

Another point to consider is that the fundamental fault of most cults is believing they are the one true church, they are the only ones who have the full truth and will be saved, everyone else is wrong and unsaved.

This way of thinking is too divisive - it turns calm disagreements into hellfire matters. If applied more widely it could be immensely destructive to Christian unity. There are too many things that we hold firm opinions on, and could be wrong about.

Take Torah for instance. About half the people here believe Christians should follow Torah food laws / feasts etc in some form, the other half believe they are completely irrelevant for Christians and should not be followed. People have fervent opinions on both sides, and both feel their opinions are backed by scripture. Clearly, from God's perspective, many or most of us must be completely wrong on this matter. Does that mean that many or most of us are unsaved because of our error? And which side are unsaved? Let's not actually have that debate again, my point is that regardless of which side is right there would be a lot of people here going to hell if this is a salvation matter. The only ones who are safe are those who have not studied the matter and have just followed their childhood traditions (from either side) without examining the issue enough to form a firm opinion which may be wrong.

 

[frederick]

Let's not actually have that debate again

Pheeeewwww.... that was close!

 

[Tesfalcon]

I agree that Jesus is God, as stated or implied in these three verses (one was less relevant). However, the question here is what beliefs are necessary for salvation. None of these verses state that believing this is essential for salvation.

Should Jesus be worshipped?
Paul was just a man.
The angel in Revelation refused John's worship.

Luke 4:8
And Jesus answered him, “It is written,
“‘You shall worship the Lord your God,
and him only shall you serve.’”

Matthew 28:9
And behold, Jesus met them and said, “Greetings!” And they came up and took hold of his feet and worshiped him.

Jn 9:37, 38
Jesus said to him, “You have seen him, and it is he who is speaking to you.” He said, “Lord, I believe,” and he worshiped him.

Luke 24:52
And they worshiped (Jesus) and returned to Jerusalem with great joy,

John 5:18
This was why the Jews were seeking all the more to kill him, because not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God.

Matt 9:1-7; Mar 2:1-12
Jesus forgives his sins before healing him. The Pharisees are indignant.
Mark 2:7
“Why does this man speak like that? He is blaspheming! Who can forgive sins but God alone?”

If Jesus is not God, we are still in our sins.

1Jo 1:7-9
"But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus his Son cleanses us from all sin. If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness."

 

[Tesfalcon]

Still not a salvation matter. We don't even have to accept the scriptures to be saved - we just have to accept Jesus. We can err in many other ways.

I will accept this only as far as Jesus took it.
Jn 5:39,40
"You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; and it is they that bear witness about me, yet you refuse to come to me that you may have life."

To accept Scripture does not equal accepting Jesus. (Legalism)
But you cannot accept Jesus without accepting Scripture first. (Relationship)

There is nothing natural or inherent in creation to reveal the plan of salvation.
Romans 10:14
"How then will they call on him in whom they have not believed?
And how are they to believe in him of whom they have never heard?
And how are they to hear without someone preaching?"

Those who reject Scripture reject Jesus by extension. You cannot learn of Him without it. God wrote us this "love letter". U wanna try random marriage to an unknown stranger claiming to be deity and hope for eternal salvation?

 

[Tesfalcon]

There are 3 acceptable "marriage" arrangements:
1) Celibacy - marriage to God alone
2) Monogamy - heterosexual
3) Polygyny - as promoted here.

Those called to one would find the others hard to swallow. I notice that there's not too much "celibate for life" promotion here.

Mat 19:10,11
The disciples said to him, “If such is the case of a man with his wife, it is better not to marry.” But he said to them, “Not everyone can receive this saying, but only those to whom it is given."

 

[frederick]

I realize this is off topic but life would be boring if we all stayed on topic....

Like @Pacman, I have come to feel that the view that they are saying "Jesus is the Christ" is more reasonable - as it is far more likely to be an effective deception. If someone says "Hey everyone, I'm the Saviour", most people would think they had a mental illness.

They’re not claiming to BE Jesus, they are claiming a similar status, anointed one.

When considering the claims pseudo-christs and pseudo-teachers make, and what people will be led to believe, there really are no limits to their excesses. Writing about the last days and the return of our Lord Jesus Christ, Paul reminded the Thessalonian saints that one of the actions of the lawless one will be to sit in the temple of God showing himself that he is God (2 Thes. 2:3-4). Because people want anything but the truth, the majority will accept those claims and worship him, taking his mark. Considering how the media have spun JB as the new redeemer for the world, and politicians across the globe have jumped on the bandwagon, I have no doubt that the media will spin just as much BS and be believed with the same fervor about the lawless one being God. Just look around at how many so-called Bible believing Christians reject the truth of Divine Creation and believe the myth of evolution, and it's no wonder those who reject the Bible outright will be taken in by such monumental deception. Watching the 2020 US elections and seeing the outcome has demonstrated how totally screwed this world is, so anything is believable - as long as it's not true.

 

[Kai T]

"That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved." Romans 10:9

I think both of us know this verse but I am not sure what is your interpretation of it. For me, the meaning behind the word "belief" in this verse 9 requires understanding it in its context. Therefore, I have already explained thoroughly in my previous posts about what I understand the meaning to be. But I am not sure what is yours. So when you confess Jesus is Lord, what is the implication? When you believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, what is the implication?

1 John 4: 6 " We are from God; he who knows God listens to us; he who is not from God does not listen to us. By this we know the spirit of truth and the spirit of error."

2 Co 11:3-4
"But I am afraid that, as the serpent deceived Eve by his craftiness, your minds will be led astray from the simplicity and purity of devotion to Christ.For if one comes and preaches another Jesus whom we have not preached, or you receive a different spirit which you have not received, or a different gospel which you have not accepted, you bear this beautifully."

Galatians 1:6-9
6 I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting the one who called you to live in the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel— 7 which is really no gospel at all. Evidently some people are throwing you into confusion and are trying to pervert the gospel of Christ. 8 But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let them be under God’s curse! 9 As we have already said, so now I say again: If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let them be under God’s curse!

No, but I don't believe you have scriptural backing for the opposite position either. In this particular case the burden of proof is on the one asserting that salvation is lost for believing anything false. The above verse clearly backs my simpler understanding of salvation, your more demanding position needs scriptural proof. And I think you already realise that there are not clear scriptures to this effect, because you yourself are uncertain about it, and this uncertainty is why you have asked for feedback on the issue, hence this entire discussion:

Romans 1:18-19
"18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, 19 because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them."

According to this verse, you may be faulted if you believed in something as false that you know is the truth. This is what we call in this verse "suppress" the truth. If you believe in something false, which God has NOT made it evident to you, I don't think it is a salvation issue. Most of us do believe in things/ideas that are false which God has not revealed. But what God has shown, we must believe. Hopefully, this can clear up any vagueness in my arguments.

Another point to consider is that the fundamental fault of most cults is believing they are the one true church, they are the only ones who have the full truth and will be saved, everyone else is wrong and unsaved.

This way of thinking is too divisive - it turns calm disagreements into hellfire matters. If applied more widely it could be immensely destructive to Christian unity. There are too many things that we hold firm opinions on, and could be wrong about.

If God really has shown to you the truth, Christians should preach it even under harsh persecution. Just like the apostles, after they were being shown the risen Jesus and His revelations, they preached the gospels even under immense persecutions from authorities and the Pharisees Jews. For those who turn such issues into hellfire matter and become angry with their brothers, they are at fault. They should not be angry at their brothers without a cause - however, Christian should always strive to be humble and accept that they might be wrong.

To summarise my position: I do believe that if a person confesses with his mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in his heart that God raised Him from the dead, he will be saved. However, how does he know Jesus is his Lord without Scriptures or the apostles? How does he believe God raised Him from the dead without the Scriptures or apostles? Does he even know what's he talking about? Or is it just a lie to get some food from the church? What does the title "Lord" even mean for that person anyway? Is it some kind of landlord? Or is it some knightship bestowed upon by the queen of England? How about the belief that God raised Jesus from the dead? Some zombies movies? Or some ancient Hindu gods who came back from hell to save a pretty girl? Asian god mythologies have many many stories similar to this.

 

[FollowingHim]

I think both of us know this verse but I am not sure what is your interpretation of it. For me, the meaning behind the word "belief" in this verse 9 requires understanding it in its context. Therefore, I have already explained thoroughly in my previous posts about what I understand the meaning to be. But I am not sure what is yours. So when you confess Jesus is Lord, what is the implication?

If Jesus is Lord, then he is your Master. Therefore, you will strive to find out what His commands are for your life, and then do them. If you are not striving to find His commands for you, and do them, then you have clearly not accepted Him as Lord.

When you believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, what is the implication?

That He raised Christ from the dead, therefore He is all-powerful and can also raise you from the dead, so eternal life is real and there is no need to fear death. You can follow your Lord even if it costs you your life.

When I step back and look at this again, from this perspective, we're closer than I thought originally. Because yes, there is more to accepting Jesus as Lord than just a few words. It is evidenced by actions in many areas.

If God clearly told somebody "marry this woman", and it was completely clear to them that this was God's command, yet they disobeyed, they would be rejecting His Lordship. Whether this rejection was serious enough for them to be cast out as a result of it would, however, be up to Him and dependent upon His mercy. So it MIGHT be a salvation matter depending on how merciful God decided to be.

However, if this is just a theological question and does not involve any direct commands someone must obey in their actual life, I still struggle to see it as a salvation matter.

 

[Daniel DeLuca]

When considering the claims pseudo-christs and pseudo-teachers make, and what people will be led to believe, there really are no limits to their excesses. Writing about the last days and the return of our Lord Jesus Christ, Paul reminded the Thessalonian saints that one of the actions of the lawless one will be to sit in the temple of God showing himself that he is God (2 Thes. 2:3-4). Because people want anything but the truth, the majority will accept those claims and worship him, taking his mark. Considering how the media have spun JB as the new redeemer for the world, and politicians across the globe have jumped on the bandwagon, I have no doubt that the media will spin just as much BS and be believed with the same fervor about the lawless one being God. Just look around at how many so-called Bible believing Christians reject the truth of Divine Creation and believe the myth of evolution, and it's no wonder those who reject the Bible outright will be taken in by such monumental deception. Watching the 2020 US elections and seeing the outcome has demonstrated how totally screwed this world is, so anything is believable - as long as it's not true.

Solid Gold Bro!

 

[Daniel DeLuca]

That might be the reason why the Book of Phillipian asked us to work out our salvation with fear and trembling? Philippians 2:12, "
12So then, my beloved, just as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your salvation with fear and trembling; 13for it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure."
This does suggest some work to be done on the part of the Believers themselves.

Really? Verse 13 clearly says that the work is on the part of God, not the believer.

 

[Daniel DeLuca]

My take on this is that Salvation comes by grace through faith in our Lord Jesus Christ, and we receive Him through simple faith. The reasons behind rejection of polygamy are numerous, but the biggest reason I believe for that, is a suspicion of our motives. It has nothing to do with doctrine, and everything to do with how those who are against us, have impugned our motives for believing what the Scriptures clearly teach. Until they get beyond that, they will simply assume that we are twisting Scripture to fit a belief that we want to latch onto. They haven't rejected Christ or Scripture. They have simply held fast to this notion that we are a bunch of lust filled men, because they cannot imagine any woman wanting this, and that we have allowed ourselves to be deceived by our own desires.

Now I have encountered a few women, in online debate, who are willing to discard their belief in an "unfair" God, when confronted with the truth of Scripture. Some of them have latched onto false prophets, one of whom claims to have "channeled" Jesus. In fact, a certain pastor who created an anti-polygamy video, agreed with the woman wholeheartedly, and when I called him out on it, sadly, he retreated into silence. I dare "name names", if that is deemed to be appropriate in this forum. As a fruit inspector, I am more than willing to say that here is someone whom you shall know him by his fruit.

There is another thing that we must take into consideration though. A person who sincerely believes and will not change their stance that monogamy is the only acceptable form of marriage, regardless of what Scriptures you point out to them, is not denying Christ, even though their version of Christ fits their beliefs. However, they very well may be setting up a stumbling block for others, who know what Scripture teaches, and see them as apologizing for the doctrines they feel uncomfortable with. I have seen this in the comments sections of some of these anti-polygamy videos. In fact, there is an atheist out there, who has posted a video, and I don't want to provide the link here. but his video is entitled "Hey Christians! Polygamy is Biblical".

It is so sad to see Christians trying to argue against the premise of that video, and discrediting the truth of Scripture, in the process of doing so. I know this is not their intent, but by refusing to acknowledge the truth of Scripture, they are responsible for people rejecting the truth of Scripture, and rejecting the message of the gospel, and they will end up giving an account to God for their "well intentioned" actions. Will they end up in hell? No! They will not lose their salvation, but the blood of those who might have otherwise gotten saved, who saw their dishonesty and rejected Christ on account of that dishonesty, will be on their hands. That will no doubt tarnish the glory that they will receive for the deeds that they have done in Christ's name.

 

[Daniel DeLuca]

One of my goals, is to end husband poaching, and wife poaching too, for that matter. I speak in whispered tones to whoever will hear and whomever I can get an audience with, because I only have one wife. If I were to have a second wife, it would be like yelling through a megaphone, that God does not want women to take a man away from his wife. When God provides me with a second wife, who does not have a husband that she left, it also speaks through that megaphone that God does not want me to take another man's wife. We know that we are called to do good deeds, and that for the one who knows to do good and refuses to do so, it is sin. We know that voicing the truth in regards to Biblical marriage, is a good thing, and will have good fruit, if we live out that Biblical marriage by loving our wives and having them submit to us as Scripture requires.

We know the direction our country is heading, and much of that is because of the broken homes that children are raised in today. We know the evil fruit of Feminism. The real question is, how do we share what we know, with people who don't already agree with us? We can spend hours on social media in endless debates with people who will always impugn our motives, or we can do good deeds, and that good deed may very well come in the form of taking a second wife from among women who have missed out on the marriage lottery. It may even be a woman who even has made a few mistakes along the way, but has not compounded those mistakes by ending an unwanted pregnancy, and who has shown that she is no longer a woman who engages in the behavior that led to her situation.

There will be opportunities for us to do good, that we must be open to. The good deeds that we have failed to do, very well might have prevented situations from emerging down the road, that have lead to the disastrous consequences our country is facing today. Our brothers and sisters in Christ need to stop shrugging their shoulders, and stop going around acting as if there is nothing that they can do about what they see going on all around them. It's nice to say, "I'll pray for you", but too often, just praying for someone, is no different than telling a hungry child, "be warmed and filled".

There will be many in heaven who won't have a lot of glory to show for what they have done in this life. There will be many who have rejected Christ, because Catholicism and Christianity have laid burdens upon them that neither we nor our fathers have been able to bear. Our focus has to be on shining the light of truth, not necessarily to keep the one whom we are talking to, from facing eternal separation from God, but perhaps to keep someone we may never meet, from facing that prospect.

 

[Kai T]

If Jesus is Lord, then he is your Master. Therefore, you will strive to find out what His commands are for your life, and then do them. If you are not striving to find His commands for you, and do them, then you have clearly not accepted Him as Lord.

Who said Jesus is Lord then He is our master? Who said I will have to find out what His commands are? Maybe for that person, Jesus might be like a consultant or like a government officer or a British Lord, he could listen to what Jesus has to say but he doesn't necessarily have to follow everything Jesus said. If he thinks Jesus is asking him to set aside his own personal interest, he will not follow. All that you said has no basis WITHOUT the Scripture.

If what you said is true, God would have said " "That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord/Master Jesus as your Master, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved." Underlined is the addition.

That He raised Christ from the dead, therefore He is all-powerful and can also raise you from the dead, so eternal life is real and there is no need to fear death. You can follow your Lord even if it costs you your life.

Muslims believe their allah to be all-powerful too. Many asians do believe their ancient ancestors/gods can come back from the dead. They even have evidence that some remember their past lives. How about this? Let them believe that Jesus is Lord and God raised Jesus from the dead, but let them continue to worship some Monkey gods or emperor god as insurance? Let them go against the first and second commandments because they do not have or believe in the Bible, they are not obliged to follow it. For them, it is extremely easy to believe Jesus as a lord or a god but just let them have insurance.
If this is true according to your logic, then they will be saved too, which is a relief to many Christians who worry their unbeliever friends and family couldn't be saved.

If God clearly told somebody "marry this woman", and it was completely clear to them that this was God's command, yet they disobeyed, they would be rejecting His Lordship. Whether this rejection was serious enough for them to be cast out as a result of it would, however, be up to Him and dependent upon His mercy. So it MIGHT be a salvation matter depending on how merciful God decided to be.

According to the Bible, God is not kind to unrepentant people. Many were killed or punished severely for not following God's commandments or lying to God, especially those who have tasted and received the gifts of God. Look at the story of Ananias and Sapphira is found in Acts 5.

Hebrew 6: 4 "For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame. 7For ground that drinks the rain which often falls on it and brings forth vegetation useful to those for whose sake it is also tilled, receives a blessing from God; 8but if it yields thorns and thistles, it is worthless and close to being cursed, and it ends up being burned."

I think I can understand falling away here to be disobedience to God or rejecting the Bible too. I think in cases where God has enlightened that person and that person rejected the truth that is made evident to them, it is impossible to bring them to repentance.

Therefore, I think it is a salvation issue.

 

[Kai T]

Really? Verse 13 clearly says that the work is on the part of God, not the believer.

Philippians 2:12, "
12So then, my beloved, just as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your salvation with fear and trembling; 13for it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure."


If the work is purely on God, why is there a need to state "work out your salvation with fear and trembling"? If God is work, there shouldn't need to have fear and trembling right?

My understanding is that God is at work in you by having His Holy Spirit live within a person's mind, heart, and conscience giving you the guidance and strength needed to obey and do His will. But you still need to be diligent in your faith (your own work) to let God work within you for His good pleasure. God did not take away our own free will to cheerfully and voluntarily worship Him.

 

[Kai T]

There will be many in heaven who won't have a lot of glory to show for what they have done in this life. There will be many who have rejected Christ, because Catholicism and Christianity have laid burdens upon them that neither we nor our fathers have been able to bear. Our focus has to be on shining the light of truth, not necessarily to keep the one whom we are talking to, from facing eternal separation from God, but perhaps to keep someone we may never meet, from facing that prospect.

How could someone who rejected Christ be in heaven?

 

[FollowingHim]

Who said Jesus is Lord then He is our master? Who said I will have to find out what His commands are? Maybe for that person, Jesus might be like a consultant or like a government officer or a British Lord, he could listen to what Jesus has to say but he doesn't necessarily have to follow everything Jesus said. If he thinks Jesus is asking him to set aside his own personal interest, he will not follow. All that you said has no basis WITHOUT the Scripture.

If what you said is true, God would have said " "That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord/Master Jesus as your Master, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved." Underlined is the addition.

Lord means Master. They are the same word. In fact, the Greek word "kyrios" is sometimes translated Lord and sometimes Master. I am not adding anything to the text, I am simply interchanging the English word "Master" for "Lord" to emphasise how serious it is to accept Jesus as your Lord. It isn't just some waffly religious title. It really means you're going to obey Him - and if you're not going to obey Him, you haven't accepted Him as Lord (Master).
https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G2962&t=KJV

 

[steve]

It really means you're going to obey Him - and if you're not going to obey Him, you haven't accepted Him as Lord (Master).

Too many know him only as Savior, they dedicated their afterlife to him. Noble sacrifice, that.

 

[Kai T]

Lord means Master. They are the same word. In fact, the Greek word "kyrios" is sometimes translated Lord and sometimes Master. I am not adding anything to the text, I am simply interchanging the English word "Master" for "Lord" to emphasise how serious it is to accept Jesus as your Lord. It isn't just some waffly religious title. It really means you're going to obey Him - and if you're not going to obey Him, you haven't accepted Him as Lord (Master).

You are absolutely right in this. But how can we know all of what you said without the Scripture or the apostles?
The world is very corrupt and twisted. Many so-called "Christians" are not actually truly believing in Jesus as their Lord and Savior; they believe in Jesus as one of their many masters/lords, amongst other gods like money, sex, pride, feminism, monkey gods and etc.

They could even say the words "Lord" and "Master" are only titles too. Why? Very simply, they reject the truth made evident to them in the Bible. Probably the spirit that got them to confess Jesus as Lord and Saviour isn't really the Holy Spirit because that evil spirit probably has distorted the very meanings of those words.

 

[Kai T]

A person who sincerely believes and will not change their stance that monogamy is the only acceptable form of marriage, regardless of what Scriptures you point out to them, is not denying Christ, even though their version of Christ fits their beliefs.

That is what I call a hardened heart.
Characteristics of A Hardened Heart

1. A Hardened Heart Does Not Obey God (Ex. 7:13, 22). This is the first and most obvious characteristic perceived in a counselee with a hardened heart. He does not obey God. However, disobeying is not exclusive to a hard-hearted counselee. Consider all the characteristics together to get a better understanding of a hardened heart. Just as Pharaoh did not obey God in letting the people go from Egypt, a counselee with a hardened heart refuses to follow God’s Word.
2. A Hardened Heart Does Not Change After Some Relief in Tough Circumstances (Ex. 8:15). Immediately following the second plague, Pharaoh demonstrates the typical pattern of a hardened heart. After relief from tough circumstances, a counselee with a hardened heart does not change and insists in the same way. They are not looking for an inner change, but outer relief.
3. A Hardened Heart Does Not Recognize the “Finger of God” (Ex. 8:19). Even the Egyptian magicians recognized the “finger of God.” Something was different. A person with a hardened heart does not recognize the spiritual realities around him. A hard-hearted person cannot see the way God is working in their situation, even though close family, relatives, and friends are telling him so.
4. A Hardened Heart Might Want Something from God (Ex. 8:28) but Does Not Hear God. At the end of the fourth plague, Pharaoh seems receptive to something different: “Plead for me.” However, his persistent denial of letting the people go reveals that while he might want something from God (relief?), he is not willing to hear God. Your counselee is looking for something. I risk saying that he is even looking for something from God (of course, he looked for a biblical counselor). However, he is not willing to hear the whole counsel of God.
5. A Hardened Heart Expects the Word of God to Fail and Does Not Recognize Its Faithfulness (Ex. 9:7). Pharaoh did not believe that the livestock of Israel would not die from the plague. He sent people to check in anticipation to see the failure of the Word of God. Counselees with a hardened heart expect the Word of God to fail. A hard-hearted counselee despises the warnings of Scripture as if the Word of God was not true. Usually, there is an overemphasis on the mercy of God, expecting His holy judgment to fail.
6. A Hardened Heart Remains Hardened Even under Severe Pain (Ex. 9:8-12). Halfway through the plagues, Pharaoh is miserable and yet is still hardened. The situation is bad enough that “the magicians could not stand before Moses because of the boils.” (Ex. 9:10). Hard-hearted counselees will not soften despite severe pain. Expect to see your counselee under severe pain and still stubborn in his sin.
7. A Hardened Heart May Even Say the Right Words (Ex. 9:27). Just like Saul (1 Sam. 15:24, 30), Pharaoh said the right words: “I have sinned.” These are the first words that every counselor dealing with stubborn sinners wants to hear. Is this the first step towards real change? It could be! But counselees with hardened hearts say the right words with no true intention to change.
8. A Hardened Heart Does Not Recognize Its Chaos (Ex. 10:7). It is quite interesting that Pharaoh’s servants were ready to let the people of Israel go. They recognize that Egypt is ruined, but Pharaoh does not. The pain is severe (see #6).
9. A Hardened Heart Blames the Messenger Instead of Recognizing Its Condition (Ex. 10:28). Pharaoh gets angry. Not with his sin, but with Moses and with God. A hardened heart blames the messenger and God instead of recognizing its own condition.
10. A Hardened Heart Will Be Broken beyond Healing (Prov. 29:11). How long? For how long will the hard-hearted counselee continue in his sin? We do not know. But just as God broke Pharaoh after ten warnings, God has a limited (yet merciful) patience. Judgment is not immediate because God is merciful and gracious. However, judgment will come because God is holy and righteous. Judgment came for Pharaoh and will come for your hard-hearted counselee. Admonish the idle!

(cited from https://www.biblicalcounselingcoalition.org/2019/03/29/characteristics-of-a-hardened-heart/)

I think if the hardened heart remains hardened after God continuously tries to counsel that person, aka unrepentant heart, how will that person be saved?
God will give him/her away to a reprobate mind. (Romans 1:28)