General Is the rejection of biblical beliefs such as polygyny a salvation issue?

[Kai T]

Still not a salvation matter. We don't even have to accept the scriptures to be saved - we just have to accept Jesus. We can err in many other ways.

Romans 10:5
For Moses writes that the man who practices the righteousness which is [b]based on law shall live [c]by that righteousness. 6 But the righteousness [d]based on faith speaks as follows: “Do not say in your heart, ‘Who will ascend into heaven?’ (that is, to bring Christ down), 7 or ‘Who will descend into the abyss?’ (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead).” 8 But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart”—that is, the word of faith which we are preaching, 9 [e]that if you confess with your mouth Jesus asLord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10 for with the heart a person believes, [f]resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, [g]resulting in salvation. 11 For the Scripture says, “Whoever believes in Him will not be [h]disappointed.” 12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, abounding in riches for all who call on Him; 13 for “Whoever will call on the name of the Lord will be saved.”
14 How then will they call on Him in whom they have not believed? How will they believe in Him whom they have not heard? And how will they hear without a preacher? 15 How will they preach unless they are sent? Just as it is written, “How beautiful are the feet of those who [i]bring good news of good things!”
16 However, they did not all heed the [j]good news; for Isaiah says, “Lord, who has believed our report?” 17 So faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word [k]of Christ.

I believe when you were referring to Romans 10:9, you have to read and understand it in its entirety. First, Paul said in the preceding verse 8 that he was referring to “word of faith which we are preaching,”, which really refers to what the apostles were preaching about then (the Bible)

Second, in the subsequent verse 10, Paul continued, “for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.” In English, we might have to think that “okay, he just needed to confess to get saved”. However, confessing is to express with his mouth or his body that the belief he already has. If a person who claims to be “confessing” but does not believe, he is not really “confessing”. He is just lying or is in self-deceit.

Based on the verse 8 of Romans Chapter 10, a person has to believe in the context of the Bible which was preached by the apostles. Therefore, you cannot just claim to be believe in “Jesus” to be saved, but it has to be in the context of the Bible.

Furthermore, in verse 13-15 of Roman 10, it is said "
3 for “Whoever will call on the name of the Lord will be saved.”
14 How then will they call on Him in whom they have not believed? How will they believe in Him whom they have not heard? And how will they hear without a preacher? 15 How will they preach unless they are sent? Just as it is written, “How beautiful are the feet of those who [i]bring good news of good things!”"

A person is not capable of calling on the Name of the LORD if they do not believe. A person is also not able to believe in Him if they have not heard the gospel as preached by the apostles - preacher. (Verse 14) Therefore, those claiming to believe in Jesus must also know Jesus through the apostles. In verse 17 of the same chapter of Roman, Paul said "faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word [k]of Christ.” If you don’t hear the gospel, how can you have faith? This is what the apostle Paul was espousing.

Other verses do lend support to this. In Matthew 7:21-23, Jesus clearly said that not everyone who calls Him Lord will enter the Kingdom of Heaven.Only those who do the will of the Father will enter the Kingdom of Heaven. Even in James 2:14-17, the Scripture said “14 What good is it, my brothers and sisters, if someone claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save them? 15 Suppose a brother or a sister is without clothes and daily food. 16 If one of you says to them, “Go in peace; keep warm and well fed,” but does nothing about their physical needs, what good is it? 17 In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.” James questioned those who claimed to believe in the Jesus but was really just in self-deceit and displayed no fruit of the Spirit.

Therefore, when we talk about the idea of the words “faith” and “belief”, we must point them back to our Lord Jesus as preached by the Bible. When we talk about the law being written in our hearts, we have to go back to the Scriptures to understand it properly. In Roman 2: 14-16, “14 For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having [o]the Law, are a law to themselves, 15 in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them, 16 on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus.” And, in Hebrew 10:11, "11 Every priest stands daily ministering and offering time after time the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins; 12 but He, having offered one sacrifice for [f]sins for all time, sat down at the right hand of God, 13 waiting from that time onward until His enemies be made a footstool for His feet. 14 For by one offering He has perfected for all time those who are [g]sanctified. 15 And the Holy Spirit also testifies to us; for after saying, 16 “This is the covenant that I will make with them
After those days, says the Lord: I will put My laws upon their heart, And on their mind I will write them,”
He then says,17 “And their sins and their lawless deeds I will remember no more.”’

First, all of these laws written in the Believers’ hearts are for Believers who trust in Jesus through the gospels preached by the apostles. And, God will judge according to the apostles' gospel through the Lord Jesus. (Roman 2:16) Second, you can only obtain the gift of the Holy Spirit who WILL testify for you if you trust in the Lord as preached by the apostles. If you don’t have the Holy Spirit and you reject the Bible, even though you might claim to believe in Jesus, whatever your heart feels or your mind thinks are most likely not related to His laws.

 

[FollowingHim]

However, confessing is to express with his mouth or his body that the belief he already has. If a person who claims to be “confessing” but does not believe, he is not really “confessing”. He is just lying or is in self-deceit.

I agree. Faith is evidenced by works, and if someone has no works they clearly don't have faith.

Based on the verse 8 of Romans Chapter 10, a person has to believe in the context of the Bible which was preached by the apostles. Therefore, you cannot just claim to be believe in “Jesus” to be saved, but it has to be in the context of the Bible.

The problem is, where do you draw the line? Clearly, as we are always learning more about the Bible our entire lives, we can't assume we must know and believe everything perfectly to be saved, or else nobody would be saved. So there must be a short-list of things that a person must believe in order to be saved. On that, I presume we are both in agreement.

So, what is that short-list? As it is essential for salvation, it is so important that it must be outlined in the Bible.

Peter's first sermon in Acts has a very simple message. (Acts 2:22-23,32,36)
"Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:
Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:
...
This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.
...
Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ."
And on the basis of that message, 3000 people were baptised.

Paul had the same focus
1 Corinthians 2:2 "For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified."

The short-list of essential beliefs for salvation must exist. And if it is something we must know for salvation, God would have caused it to be recorded in scripture - otherwise how would we be saved? It's essential for salvation, so it must be explained in scripture.

However, when I look for that short-list, it turns out to be much shorter than I would have expected - in fact, shorter than is even comfortable. The essential belief is only "Jesus Christ, and him crucified".

If you can find a more comprehensive short-list of essential beliefs, please show it to me.

This seems far too short, and far too simple. But that is because we have the minds of Greeks: (1 Cor 1:20-25)
"Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world?
For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.
For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom:
But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;
But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.
Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men."

Yes, it's so simple it seems ridiculous. But I think that's the point.

 

[Kai T]

The problem is, where do you draw the line? Clearly, as we are always learning more about the Bible our entire lives, we can't assume we must know and believe everything perfectly to be saved, or else nobody would be saved. So there must be a short-list of things that a person must believe in order to be saved. On that, I presume we are both in agreement.

We don't draw the line; God draws the line. The essence of salvation only boils down to one thing - belief in the Lord Jesus. (John 3:16) However, the extent of belief differs for each individual. A thief crucified with the Lord got saved because the thief merely recognised His Kingdom. (Luke 23:42) Abraham got saved because he obeyed God by moving to another place. (Heb 11:8) Noah got saved because he had obeyed God and built an ark. (Heb 11:7) As we all can see, each individual above-mentioned had different tasks and requirements that got them saved. Some just had to confess the Lordship of Jesus, one had to do a total relocation and one had to invest a lot to build a huge ark. But they had a common thing: they did the will of God.

Therefore, I don't agree with any short list of things that one must know to get saved - the only thing the Lord said which is a MUST is the belief in Him. It really depends on what God revealed to them and asked from them. God did and continues to reveal Himself progressively throughout history. Luke 12:48 says " For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more." If God reveals more to you, He expects more belief from you. It's as simple as that. Paul in 1 Corinthians 2:2 knew exactly the wisdom in that. That was why he knew the burden of faith from God due to his position as an apostle.

Therefore, in my opinion, if you share the gospel to an unbeliever, it is the will of God that the unbeliever accepts the gospel of the Lord and he will be saved because of that. However, for a more experienced Christian, when you reveal the truth of the polygyny to those Christians, it is the will of God that they accept the truth because it is the truth. If they reject that truth putting their own personal feelings/ideas/environment above the revelation of God, do you really think they truly believe in the Lord Jesus? That is why in Matthew 7:21-23, Jesus clearly said that not everyone who calls Him Lord will enter the Kingdom of Heaven.Only those who do the will of the Father will enter the Kingdom of Heaven.

I know many who read this might think some of these Christians don't get the nitty gritty details of the Bible and therefore can't be faulted. In Romans 1:18-28, we see God giving away people to a reprobate mind, sexual immorality and etc."
18For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of people who suppress the truth [m]in unrighteousness, 19because that which is known about God is evident [n]within them; for God made it evident to them."(Romans 1:18-19)
There is a BIG difference between not truly understanding and suppressing the truth among such Christians. Not truly understanding would usually mean those Christians weren't really exposed to such idea or studies of the Bible. No one really mentioned to them about polygyny or it never really came across to them before. For such group of Christians, I believe they would not be faulted because God has not chosen to reveal to them the truth about marriage. But most of the time, I believe such Christians who "don't get the nitty gritty details" do in actuality suppress the truth in unrighteousness because God does make the truth evident to them.

When anyone tries to make a short list of requirements to be saved, they are bound to fail because there is no such short list stated in the Bible apart from having faith. And that is the only thing needed to be saved - faith.


(1 Cor 1:20-25)
"Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world?
For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.
For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom:
But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;
But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.
Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men."

Actually for me I don't truly seek after wisdom from God although I would love to have it and I do ask it from God occasionally. But I think many here truly seek for the will of God to be done on earth as it in heaven.

 

[FollowingHim]

1 Cor 1:22 does not say that the Greeks seek after "wisdom from God". It simply says "wisdom". It refers to the secular Greek culture of trying to understand things through logic and reason (think Plato etc). The point being that the Greeks tried to understand everything through logic and human reason, and the simplicity of Jesus crucified seemed illogical and foolish.

That is what we are trying to do in most of our discussions on matters like this. We are trying to understand God using logic and reason. It may be that what God is truly saying is so simple it seems foolish to us.

We don't draw the line; God draws the line.

Agreed. But we are currently trying to find His line.

The essence of salvation only boils down to one thing - belief in the Lord Jesus. (John 3:16)

Again, agreed.

If God reveals more to you, He expects more belief from you.
...
However, for a more experienced Christian, when you reveal the truth of the polygyny to those Christians, it is the will of God that they accept the truth because it is the truth. If they reject that truth putting their own personal feelings/ideas/environment above the revelation of God, do you really think they truly believe in the Lord Jesus?

If God reveals anything to you, are you required to accept the correct view of it in order to be saved? If this applies to polygamy, does it apply to any issue?

Let's switch to another issue. I'll pick infant baptism as a random one - but one of at least as much importance as polygamy. All denominations accept the adult "believer's baptism" as valid for new converts. However, some denominations also accept infant baptism, and others reject it. Many protestants have argued strongly in each direction. John Calvin and Martin Luther, for instance, both spoke strongly in favour of infant baptism, and backed their position with considerable scriptural reasoning. While later in the reformation others spoke against infant baptism, also with (different) scriptural backing for their position. In the 19th century, the great Baptist preacher Charles Spurgeon called it an "abomination".

Now, let's imagine that you have been presented the scriptural reasoning behind both infant baptism, and non-infant baptism positions. Only one is correct. Whichever you choose to believe, you will think you are following scripture. However, in reality, if you believe the right one you have accepted the scripture correctly - and if you believe the wrong one, you have rejected the word of God He was speaking to you through scripture.

If your position on infant baptism happens to be wrong, are you not saved?

If so, then either way half of the Protestant church is not saved. Either John Calvin is in heaven and Charles Spurgeon is in hell, or Spurgeon is in heaven and Calvin is in hell (and we certainly can't excuse either of those great men on the grounds of lack of scholarship, each had studied this in plenty of depth to have clearly read God's word on the matter, whatever it is). Or maybe both are wrong in different ways and both are in hell. But it is impossible for both to be in heaven, because at least one has rejected the scripture.

If we then apply this to every other issue we could apply it to, who would be saved?

 

[Tesfalcon]

For instance, we must accept Christ as Lord, but are not told we must accept him as being God (Lord and God being quite different words). I do believe he is God - however there are sects such as the Jehovah's Witnesses who accept him as Lord, but do not accept him as God (rather as the most exalted creation of God). In my personal opinion, they are still saved as they accept the most fundamental necessary truth, even though I believe they are wrong on an important detail.

Mat 16:15-17
He said to them, “But who do you say that I am?” Simon Peter answered, “You are  the Christ, the Son of the living God.” And Jesus said to him, “Blessed are you, Simon Barjona, because flesh and blood did not reveal this to you, but My Father who is in heaven.

Mark 1:1
The beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ, the Son of God.

Jn 11:25-27
Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life; he who believes in Me will live even if he dies, and everyone who lives and believes in Me will never die. Do you believe this?” She *said to Him, “Yes, Lord; I have believed that You are  the Christ, the Son of God, even  He who comes into the world.”

John 20:31
but these have been written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing you may have life in His name.


Please tell me again how you can be saved WITHOUT believing that Jesus is God?

 

[steve]

Please tell me again how you can be saved WITHOUT believing that Jesus is God?

Hmmm
Every verse that you quoted says that Jesus is the son of God.

 

[Kai T]

If God reveals anything to you, are you required to accept the correct view of it in order to be saved?

If God reveals something to you, then yes, you are required to believe it by accepting it. If God didn't reveal it to you but you chose to believe in something not revealed, that is also sin. Why? You notice the friends of Job? They made many assumptions about God, His will and providence. God didn't reveal that to them but they judged Job based on their own understanding. In the end, God asked Job to burn sacrifice for their sins. Understanding & wisdom are given by God. We should never rely on our own understanding. Prov 2:6 "For the LORD gives wisdom; From His mouth come knowledge and understanding." Prov 3: 5 "Trust in the LORD with all your heart And do not lean on your own understanding."

Now, let's imagine that you have been presented the scriptural reasoning behind both infant baptism, and non-infant baptism positions. Only one is correct. Whichever you choose to believe, you will think you are following scripture. However, in reality, if you believe the right one you have accepted the scripture correctly - and if you believe the wrong one, you have rejected the word of God He was speaking to you through scripture.

You should AVOID taking a position if you are not 100% sure of the right answer. If you are not 100% sure, in all probabilities, you haven't got any wisdom from God to discern the right from the wrong. God has not revealed the answer to you. Therefore, we should not make any judgement if we are not sure. But what we can discern, we are sure. If we are not sure, we ask from God to reveal that to us. I don't believe you can understand the words of God fully and accurately without the Holy Spirit but we must accept the Bible as the ultimate authority and the source of all understanding.

So you might question: what if God hasn't revealed Jesus as God to that person but that person has trusted in Jesus as the Son of God? He just didn't believe Jesus is God. First, where did that person get that understanding that Jesus is only the Son of God but not God from? His pastors? His church? Why doesn't that person believe Jesus is God? Because of his own reading of the Bible or because of his pastors or church or because he has not been exposed to that idea before? If he derived that understanding from his own reading of the Bible, did he purposely forget to read John 1:1, "In the beginning was the Word, the Word was with God and the Word was God" or John 10:30, "The Father and I are one"? Or did God actually hide this understanding from him? Okay, fine, God probably will not fault him because he was blinded. So on one fine day, a man of God came and told that person that Jesus is our Lord and our God and presented those verses to him. Now, he was hesitant to consider that line of thinking because his pastors and churches were so insistent on the idea that Jesus was not God. Therefore, because of his needs to conform to his church and to his social circle, he basically suppressed that truth or the possibility of that truth to fit in. And that @FollowingHim is unrighteous.

The Scriptures call such person haters of good and will learn but never come to the knowledge of the truth. 2 Tim 3 "But realize this, that in the last days difficult times will come. 2 For men will be lovers of self, lovers of money, boastful, arrogant, revilers, disobedient to parents, ungrateful, unholy, 3 unloving, irreconcilable, malicious gossips, without self-control, brutal, [a]haters of good, 4 treacherous, reckless, conceited, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God, 5 holding to a form of godliness, although they have denied its power; Avoid such men as these. 6 For among them are those who enter into households and captivate weak women weighed down with sins, led on by various impulses, 7 always learning and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth. "

If so, then either way half of the Protestant church is not saved. Either John Calvin is in heaven and Charles Spurgeon is in hell, or Spurgeon is in heaven and Calvin is in hell (and we certainly can't excuse either of those great men on the grounds of lack of scholarship, each had studied this in plenty of depth to have clearly read God's word on the matter, whatever it is). Or maybe both are wrong in different ways and both are in hell. But it is impossible for both to be in heaven, because at least one has rejected the scripture. If we then apply this to every other issue we could apply it to, who would be saved?

I don't know whether Calvin or Spurgeon are in heaven or hell, but what I can say is only what the Scriptures say. But Jesus said in Matthew 7:13 "13 “Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter through it. 14 For the gate is small and the way is narrow that leads to life, and there are few who find it."

Revelation 3:15-16, "15 ‘I know your deeds, that you are neither cold nor hot; I wish that you were cold or hot. 16 So because you are lukewarm, and neither hot nor cold, I will spit you out of My mouth."

Luke 13: 23-27, "23 And someone said to Him, “Lord, are there just a few who are being saved?” And He said to them, 24 “Strive to enter through the narrow door; for many, I tell you, will seek to enter and will not be able. 25 Once the head of the house gets up and shuts the door, and you begin to stand outside and knock on the door, saying, ‘Lord, open up to us!’ then He will answer and say to you, ‘I do not know where you are from.’ 26 Then you will begin to say, ‘We ate and drank in Your presence, and You taught in our streets’; 27 and He will say, ‘I tell you, I do not know where you are from; depart from Me, all you evildoers.’"

Matt 22:14“For many are called, but few are chosen.”

It is impossible to know all truths contained in the Bible for any person, but God knows your heart, whether it is inclined to the truth. The gate and way to life is narrow and NOT wide. We don't get to know the short list or the minimum knowledge of truth from God that a person needs to know in order to be saved. Shockingly, even lukewarm Christians might not be saved for God will spit them out of His mouth. Therefore, I think that if a person is exposed to the knowledge of the truth and he deliberately chooses to reject it, it is highly likely that he might not be saved or might lose his salvation.

2 Tim 3:10-17, "10 Now you followed my teaching, conduct, purpose, faith, patience, love, perseverance, 11 persecutions, and sufferings, such as happened to me at Antioch, at Iconium and at Lystra; what persecutions I endured, and out of them all the Lord rescued me! 12 Indeed, all who desire to live godly in Christ Jesus will be persecuted. 13 But evil men and impostors will proceed from bad to worse, deceiving and being deceived. 14 You, however, continue in the things you have learned and become convinced of, knowing from whom you have learned them, 15 and that from childhood you have known the sacred writings which are able to give you the wisdom that leads to salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. 16 All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness; 17 so that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good work."


In the end, you must know where your faith comes from. And faith needs to be derived from the sacred writings which will give you what is necessary for salvation in Christ Jesus.(2 Tim 3:14-15) If my friend whose name is Jesus calls you to believe in him as the Messiah, and you believe in that friend of mine, you are not saved because you don't have the sacred writings and the wisdom needed for salvation. All men, even the man of God should use the Scriptures to teach, to be corrected and to be trained in righteousness. (verse 16) If that person does not use Scriptures, how would they know God?

EDIT: Probably not "hater of good" but at least he is conceited.

 

[FollowingHim]

Luke 13: 23-27, "23 And someone said to Him, “Lord, are there just a few who are being saved?” And He said to them, 24 “Strive to enter through the narrow door; for many, I tell you, will seek to enter and will not be able. 25 Once the head of the house gets up and shuts the door, and you begin to stand outside and knock on the door, saying, ‘Lord, open up to us!’ then He will answer and say to you, ‘I do not know where you are from.’ 26 Then you will begin to say, ‘We ate and drank in Your presence, and You taught in our streets’; 27 and He will say, ‘I tell you, I do not know where you are from; depart from Me, all you evildoers.’"

Or in other translations, "I do not know you or where you are from".

The point is that we are to know God. Those who truly have a relationship with Him, enter through the narrow gate. And those that do not, do not.

All men, even the man of God should use the Scriptures to teach, to be corrected and to be trained in righteousness. (verse 16) If that person does not use Scriptures, how would they know God?

Through most of history, most people have been illiterate, and therefore could not use the scriptures. Is an illiterate man unable to be saved? What about a literate man who has no access to a Bible - e.g. someone in North Korea, who'd love to read scripture but never can? What about a literate man who only has access to a portion of the scripture - as was the case historically, when individual books were hand-written onto individual scrolls and there was no such thing as a Bible at all?

Timothy had the great blessing of being literate, and having had access to and studied the scriptures from his childhood. That gave him an excellent foundation for church leadership, and teaching. However, that does not in any way imply that this is a requirement for all Christians. This is a personal letter to Timothy, teaching him how to be a leader in the church.

The rest of the verses you cite around who is accepted, and who is rejected, are most clearly understood as judging people for either their heart-attitude towards God, or their works, NOT their level of scholarly perfection or even their access to scripture at all.

 

[FollowingHim]

John 20:31
but these have been written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing you may have life in His name.

The edge-case of not believing this is best illustrated by Islam. Muslims accept that Jesus is the Christ (in that he is the anointed Saviour of Israel, and even that he will return in the last days as Israel's king). They also fervently believe in the virgin birth, greatly reverencing Mary. The Qur'an clearly describes how Jesus is unique from all other 'prophets' other than Adam, because only he and Adam came directly from God with no human father. So, so close...

But at the same time, Islam adamantly proclaims "God has no son", even though that is self-contradictory. Because, according to the Qur'an, who is Jesus' father? Only God. Yet they still proclaim God has no son.

So this is the key point of loss of salvation, according to those verses. Believing that Jesus is the Christ, and came from God, but is not the Son of God. So close but fails on a critical detail.

Judaism is then a step further - they neither recognise Him as God's Son, nor as the Christ, so fail on both counts, being even further from salvation.

 

[FollowingHim]

Personally, I believe that Satan very carefully designed Islam to be as close as possible to the truth in this regard while still falling short of it on a crucial detail. The more truth there is in a lie, the more effective the lie. That makes Islam a much more effective way of leading people away from God than Judaism - which then explains why far more people in the world follow Islam than Judaism. There is a portion of the population who are willing to reject Jesus completely, and they can be led into Judaism or Atheism. But there is another portion of the population who are not so easily misled, and are so much more attracted to the truth that they can only be led astray by a counterfeit that is very close to the real thing. Islam is that wing of Satan's attack.

So Christianity can be seen as a narrow path, on one side of which lies Islam and on the other side lies Judaism & Atheism.

That's obviously a gross simplification as there are more than four religions and philosophies in the world, but it's a representation of some dominant ones.

 

[Kai T]

Or in other translations, "I do not know you or where you are from".

The point is that we are to know God.

The point is to actually also be known by God. Trying to know God alone is not enough; God has to also know you. It's a two-way thing. I do agree that you have to have a relationship with God in order to be saved.

Through most of history, most people have been illiterate, and therefore could not use the scriptures. Is an illiterate man unable to be saved? What about a literate man who has no access to a Bible - e.g. someone in North Korea, who'd love to read scripture but never can? What about a literate man who only has access to a portion of the scripture - as was the case historically, when individual books were hand-written onto individual scrolls and there was no such thing as a Bible at all?

Timothy had the great blessing of being literate, and having had access to and studied the scriptures from his childhood. That gave him an excellent foundation for church leadership and teaching. However, that does not in any way imply that this is a requirement for all Christians. This is a personal letter to Timothy, teaching him how to be a leader in the church.

Whether a person could be illiterate and yet be saved, it really depends on the will of God. It's just like Abraham who had no Scriptures to rely on but yet heard the Voice of God to be saved. But God did not promise that all would hear His Voice or be saved.

You seem to be saying that one does not have to have the knowledge of the Bible to be saved. I would agree with you if they are illiterate, have a relationship with God and have never been exposed to the Bible in any way or any form. What I am trying to say is that once at some point in time, that person has heard or read the Bible(albeit from another person whether by words or voice - since he couldn't read anyway), he has been exposed to the truth. Given his relationship with God, he should know that the Bible is the Word of God and should accept that as the truth. He does not need to be a bible scholar or a master reader to know that it is the truth. Why? Because God would have shown to him it is the truth. However, if he rejects the Bible as the word of God, I believe his salvation is at stake; he might not have a real relationship with God.

When God tells us something or instructs us to do something, a true Christian should not need to question God - they should just obey it. Obedience is the result of faith. Why does a Christian deliberately reject the truth of and in the Bible? I believe they just don't hear God or have a relationship with God or are rebellious against God. 18For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of people who suppress the truth [m]in unrighteousness, 19because that which is known about God is evident [n]within them; for God made it evident to them."(Romans 1:18-19)

God said He made the truth evident to these people. If God has not made the truth evident to them, then they may not be faulted for their lack of belief in that particular truth. However, by default without the Bible, no one is saved for none is righteous.
Romans 3:10-12, "“None is righteous, no, not one;
11 no one understands;
no one seeks for God.
12 All have turned aside; together they have become worthless;
no one does good,
not even one.”"

Scholarly knowledge of the Bible is in itself also a product and pride of men's knowledge and minds in trying to understand God - it might be sinful. Within the limits of my knowledge, I may be wrong, most of the Prophets of the Lord in the Old Testament times were not Torah experts or teachers - they were mostly shepherds.
John 10:27-28
King James Version

27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.


Our Lord Jesus defined who His sheep are: His sheep hear His voice. He knows His sheep AND His sheep follow Him. Therefore, for us who are without God's knowledge, if a "Christian" rejects deliberately biblical truths, he/she highly likely is not known by God nor does he/she know God.

 

[Kai T]

@FollowingHim
An illustration came to my mind: let's say Samuel meets a fine girl, Sally at a birthday party. Both of them are interested in each other. Sally thinks Samuel is cool, humourous, charmingly posh, and dashingly smart. Both of them fall in love. But Samuel had some secret: he loved cigars and thought that all Asians were short. But during the process of the courtship, none of these secrets have been made known to Sally. One day, Samuel thinks it's time to marry Sally, he then reveals his love for cigars and his thoughts that all Asians were short to Sally. Sally is utterly in shock. Sally then says to Samuel, "You made a mistake!. You are not Samuel whom I love. I hate cigars and think that thought is racist!". Samuel then says, "No, I'm really Samuel. This is really who I am." In the end, Sally can't bear the thought of this "Samuel" loving cigars and being a bigot. She then leaves him to find the right "Samuel".

If Samuel did not reveal the truth that he loved cigars and his bigoted thoughts to Sally, Sally still would think very favourably of Samuel. Then it might still questionable whether Sally truly loved Samuel for who He is.

So, when God reveals who He is to a Christian, it is a test of the Christian's faith: whether the Christian still believes in who He actually is, rather than who this Christian wants Him to be.

 

[Tesfalcon]

Hmmm
Every verse that you quoted says that Jesus is the son of God.

Jn 1:1-3
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things were made through him, and without him was not any thing made that was made.

Matthew 4:7
Jesus said to him, “Again it is written, You shall not put the Lord your God to the test.’”

John 5:18
This was why the Jews were seeking all the more to kill him, because not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God.

John 8:58
Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am.”

 

[frederick]

In English, it appears that this can be read both ways (either saying "I myself am the Christ", or "Jesus is the Christ"). However, is it possible to also read it both ways in the Greek, or is this a translation quirk?

Are you saying that the words could, grammatically, mean either, but you are firmly of the opinion for various other reasons that this means they are saying "I myself am the Christ"? Or, are you saying that the words CANNOT mean "Jesus is the Christ" in Greek, and can only mean they are saying "I myself am the Christ"?

Like @Pacman, I have come to feel that the view that they are saying "Jesus is the Christ" is more reasonable - as it is far more likely to be an effective deception. If someone says "Hey everyone, I'm the Saviour", most people would think they had a mental illness. But if someone says "Jesus is the Christ, and to follow Him really well He wants you to drink this kool-aid", far more people will go along with it. There's far more danger in people that really look like genuine Christians who are slipping poison into their preaching, than people who are so obviously off in la-la-land that most people will ignore them. The most effective lies are mostly truth.

From what I've been able to learn it would be possible to translate Matt. 24:5 either way but the difficulty with understanding it as "Jesus is the Christ" lies in the context. Jesus tells the disciples in v:23 and 24 that people will be directing others to false christs (v:23) and false christs and false prophets will arise (v:24). That would be affirming His warning in v:5. In parallel passages, both Mark and Luke record Jesus saying there will be many claiming to be the I AM (Mark 13:3; Luke 21:8). Context, context, context, are the three essential rules for Bible translation and interpretation, so v:5 in the greater context leads me to understand it as the deceivers claiming themselves to be "the Christ" and others directing people to them as the christ (v:23). There is nothing in the context of the passage itself or in the historical understanding of it that would lead me to believe that Jesus was warning of deceivers who would come and direct their followers to Him. Thanks for the opportunity to examine this passage more closely.

 

[frederick]

i think another/better? way of looking at this passage is to read and understand the word “christ” in it’s more literal meaning, “anointed one”. False prophets and false anointed ones, makes more sense as to why they are successful in their deception. They’re not claiming to BE Jesus, they are claiming a similar status, anointed one.

Yes, the word "Christ" means anointed one. The way Matt. 24:5 is constructed in the Greek text is emphatic; they are saying, "I Myself am The Christ." The word Christ has the Greek definite article before it making it a claim the be "The Christ"; the anointed one promised in the scriptures. These are specific and emphatic words with strong claims attached to them by the ones who will be speaking them. Jesus Himself is warning His disciples of men who will make these bold and audacious claims about themselves as THE anointed one - and cult leaders throughout history have made such claims.

 

[frederick]

His fairness is not the same as our concept of fairness.

On that I would agree.

 

[FollowingHim]

Jn 1:1-3
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things were made through him, and without him was not any thing made that was made.
...
John 5:18
This was why the Jews were seeking all the more to kill him, because not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God.

John 8:58
Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am.”

I agree that Jesus is God, as stated or implied in these three verses (one was less relevant). However, the question here is what beliefs are necessary for salvation. None of these verses state that believing this is essential for salvation.

Earlier, you quoted the verses that outline what is essential for salvation, and as @steve pointed out, those all were simply that we must accept Jesus is God's Son.

There is a base-level of belief that is essential, and further points of belief that are correct.

 

[Keith Martin]

Well said.

 

[FollowingHim]

@Kai T, I think I understand your position correctly now. What you are saying is that we don't have to perfectly understand everything to be saved. However, when presented with the truth, we must accept the truth with certainty, as if we certainly believe the opposite of truth, we have rejected God's Word and therefore rejected God. However, if we are unsure about something, we should avoid coming to a firm conclusion and not state one way or the other, because then we have not rejected God's word. It is perfectly acceptable to be uneducated and have little knowledge of God - we just have to accept the correct view on the matters we do focus on. It is only if we clearly reject the truth in any area that God has revealed to us that we will not be saved. I think that is a fair summary of your position, if I am wrong correct me.

I reject that for several reasons:

• Most importantly, I can't see it in scripture. Scripture seems to indicate salvation is far simpler than this.
• It expects too much perfection. Humans make mistakes. We will be wrong sometimes. If we lose our salvation for firmly believing something that turns out to have been a mistake, who can be saved? How could we ever have assurance of salvation, since the possibility remains that we might be wrong somewhere?
• It incentivises lukewarmness. If taking a firm stand on something risks the possibility that we might be taking a firm stand in the wrong direction and therefore lose our salvation, it is safer to take NO firm stands on anything, and to not investigate anything deeply enough to form a firm opinion. But we are told in Revelation to be cold or hot, but not lukewarm. In Revelation, it is the lukewarm who are rejected, while both the cold and hot (ie those in completely opposite but fervent positions) who are saved.

So, when God reveals who He is to a Christian, it is a test of the Christian's faith: whether the Christian still believes in who He actually is, rather than who this Christian wants Him to be.

I agree. But, does failing that test always result in a loss of salvation? That goes a step further.

 

[steve]

I would agree that it is dangerous to not accept what Yah is showing us, but the final judgement is His.