How should I go about this?

[DiscussingTheTopic]

Whenever anti-islamists criticized Islam for making women wear hijab, etc. I said that sounds like something in the Bible I really should look into Islam

Later I realized that making women wear hijab is not the same as encouraging women to wear hijab. Christians should encourage women to dress modestly not force them to dress modestly or else :?

I was really interested in knowing more about Islam because it seemed they treat women with better respect in some ways (I would guess if women have to cover their head, etc. there would be no strip clubs and no pornography for purpose of lusting after people you are not married to, etc.) and then I read the Quran (in translation) and started to lose interest more the more I read the Quran. I intend to finish reading the Quran but I have lost so much interest, because the more I knew the Quran the less it made sense to believe, so it would be very hard to finish reading the Quran by my own strength or effort. I still plan to finish reading it eventually.

Almost no prophecies (toward that future) that I saw so far, I saw almost no reasonable reason to believe it, so far.

Also it seemed to me that certain Muslims think Allah is ok with people lying to a very large extent so I wondered how would I know if Allah is lying or not? I think they showed me verses in the Quran to back up their claim as well, but I had trouble finding the same verses when I looked again and so I asked other Muslims and they insisted that those verses were not in the Quran.

So far the Quran is much more different than the Bible then I thought it would be especially in terms of moral things in the old testament where I thought I would find the greatest similarity between the Quran and the old testament, until I actually read the Quran.

 

[Isabella]

Whenever anti-islamists criticized Islam for making women wear hijab, etc. I said that sounds like something in the Bible I really should look into Islam

Later I realized that making women wear hijab is not the same as encouraging women to wear hijab. Christians should encourage women to dress modestly not force them to dress modestly or else :?

As far as I know the Quaran asks both men and women to dress modestly, all that veiling is cultural and came later. Remember in most of the known world in the Middle ages it was common for women to cover their hair.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hijab

Christian women did too, until modern times when it became only something some devout women did in Church.

I still plan to finish reading it eventually.

Good for you, you have more patience than I do.

Almost no prophecies (toward that future) that I saw so far,.

Please explain? Are prophecies necessary to validate a Holy Book?

Also it seemed to me that certain Muslims think Allah is ok with people lying to a very large extent so I wondered how would I know if Allah is lying or not? I think they showed me verses in the Quran to back up their claim as well, but I had trouble finding the same verses when I looked again and so I asked other Muslims and they insisted that those verses were not in the Quran.
.

Perhaps those liars were quoting hadith rather than the Quran?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hadith#Qur.27an_alone_movement.27s_position_on_hadith

B

 

[DiscussingTheTopic]

Perhaps those liars were quoting hadith rather than the Quran?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hadith#Qur.27an_alone_movement.27s_position_on_hadith

B

One of them was something about three cases in which it is ok to lie, one of them being that it is ok to lie to your wife (or possibly your spouse) and I do not remember the other two. Those were all around the same verse, there were other places also that promote lying that I remember seeing.

 

[DiscussingTheTopic]

Please explain? Are prophecies necessary to validate a Holy Book?

Proclaiming history in advance, seems to be a common method to help validate many of the prophets in the old testament and also to help validate Jesus as a prophet. Another way to validate a prophet is if a prophet who made historically accurate prophecies about the future certifies another prophet or text as being a prophet or prophetic. And yet another is miracles. Needless to say all of these could be attributed to demons, but that would still show reason to believe a super-natural origin whether it be demonic or not.

In my opinion it is not valid to say a religion is correct because it agrees with one's own moral assumptions, because there is no basis for knowing morality that I know of without first knowing which religion(s) are correct. It is better to use an interpretation of physical evidence to determine if someone is a prophet as I see it and experimental science does not count for much to convince me because experimental science is repeatable and the outcome could be known in advance because of it's repeatable nature. On the other hand we do not know history in advance with natural means as far as I know of so consistently knowing history in advance can give reason to believe someone is a prophet. Of course there are certain unwritten assumptions (which I consider common sense) which lead to these conclusions.

The Quran as Muslims explain there interpretation of it to me, does not even seem to get the past before Muhammad correct, since they insist that the only proper interpretation involves Jesus not having been executed. So if the Quran as they interpret it is true then Jesus and Moses are prophets and since Jesus was executed Muhammad incorrectly prophesied the past and the past did not come true as he prophesied it therefor if the Quran as they interpret it is true than Muhammad is a false prophet according to the true prophet Moses.

Muslims claim to believe in Jesus

12 I have spoken to you of earthly things and you do not believe; how then will you believe if I speak of heavenly things?
John 3:12 NIV 2011

Well Muslims seem to claim to believe in Moses.

21 You may say to yourselves, “How can we know when a message has not been spoken by the LORD?” 22 If what a prophet proclaims in the name of the LORD does not take place or come true, that is a message the LORD has not spoken. That prophet has spoken presumptuously, so do not be alarmed.
Deuteronomy 18:21-22 NIV 2011

the Prophet Isaiah taught
9 Remember the former things, those of long ago;
I am God, and there is no other;
I am God, and there is none like me.
10 I make known the end from the beginning,
from ancient times, what is still to come.
I say, ‘My purpose will stand,
and I will do all that I please.’
Isaiah 46:9-10 NIV 2011 translation

3 I foretold the former things long ago,
my mouth announced them and I made them known;
then suddenly I acted, and they came to pass.
Isaiah 48:3 NIV 2011 translation

21 “Present your case,” says the LORD.
“Set forth your arguments,” says Jacob’s King.
22 “Tell us, you idols,
what is going to happen.
Tell us what the former things were,
so that we may consider them
and know their final outcome.
Or declare to us the things to come,
23 tell us what the future holds,
so we may know that you are gods.
Do something, whether good or bad,
so that we will be dismayed and filled with fear.
24 But you are less than nothing
and your works are utterly worthless;
whoever chooses you is detestable.
Isaiah 41:21-24 NIV 2011 translation

9 See, the former things have taken place,
and new things I declare;
before they spring into being
I announce them to you.”
Isaiah 42:9 NIV 2011 translation

9 All the nations gather together
and the peoples assemble.
Which of their gods foretold this
and proclaimed to us the former things?
Let them bring in their witnesses to prove they were right,
so that others may hear and say, “It is true.”
Isaiah 43:9 NIV 2011

 

[Isabella]

One of them was something about three cases in which it is ok to lie, one of them being that it is ok to lie to your wife (or possibly your spouse) and I do not remember the other two. Those were all around the same verse, there were other places also that promote lying that I remember seeing.

That sounds very dubious, but in fact you are right, a ultra quick google search yielded these little gems:

Is “Never lie!” an absolute principle of Islam or are there exceptions? Suppose that a would-be murderer comes knocking on your door, looking for his victim. Is the morally correct answer, “She’s hiding upstairs, hoping you will go away”? Philosophers like Kant wrote as if this was in fact the morally correct thing to do, but Islamicly, lying is justified in such cases.

Under a few circumstances, lying may be considered acceptable, according to Islamic beliefs. This ruling is supported by a hadith in which the Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) said, "Lies are not appropriate except in three cases: when a man speaks to his wife to please her, telling lies at times of war, and lying in order to bring about reconciliation between people.” (Reported Hasan by Shaykh al-Albaani).

So, I am guessing the first comes under the 'No, it ISN'T a mess darling your hair looks lovely' bracket. The second would be 'No, I haven't got any US soldiers hiding in my barn Mr. Evil Nazi Sir ' and the final one would be 'If you stop all this fighting we will give you lots of western cash........suckers!'

I dislike lying in general myself, I try to be honest 100% of the time but given the examples I guess there are certain lies I would tell yes.

B

 

[Isabella]

Proclaiming history in advance, seems to be a common method to help validate many of the prophets in the old testament and also to help validate Jesus as a prophet. Another way to validate a prophet is if a prophet who made historically accurate prophecies about the future certifies another prophet or text as being a prophet or prophetic. And yet another is miracles. Needless to say all of these could be attributed to demons, but that would still show reason to believe a super-natural origin whether it be demonic or not.ith natural means as far as I know of so consistently knowing history in advance can give reason to believe someone is a prophet. Of course there are certain unwritten assumptions (which I consider common sense) which lead to these conclusions.

Sorry, this just went right over my head....was that a yes? Did Jesus see future events? What were they? (bearing in mind I know nothing more than what I have seen through the eyes of Franco Zeffirelli), I know about miracles but not propecies.

B

 

[DiscussingTheTopic]

Sorry, this just went right over my head....was that a yes? Did Jesus see future events? What were they? (bearing in mind I know nothing more than what I have seen through the eyes of Franco Zeffirelli), I know about miracles but not propecies.

B

He prophesied his own resurrection and the destruction of the temple as well as some other things some of which are yet to come and some of which already happened.

31 He then began to teach them that the Son of Man must suffer many things and be rejected by the elders, the chief priests and the teachers of the law, and that he must be killed and after three days rise again. 32 He spoke plainly about this, and Peter took him aside and began to rebuke him.
Mark 8:31-32 NIV 2011

9 As they were coming down the mountain, Jesus gave them orders not to tell anyone what they had seen until the Son of Man had risen from the dead. 10 They kept the matter to themselves, discussing what “rising from the dead” meant.
Mark 9:9-10 NIV 2011

9 As they were coming down the mountain, Jesus instructed them, “Don’t tell anyone what you have seen, until the Son of Man has been raised from the dead.”
Mathew 17:9 NIV 2011

33 “We are going up to Jerusalem,” he said, “and the Son of Man will be delivered over to the chief priests and the teachers of the law. They will condemn him to death and will hand him over to the Gentiles, 34 who will mock him and spit on him, flog him and kill him. Three days later he will rise.”
Mark 10:33-34 NIV 2011

because he was teaching his disciples. He said to them, “The Son of Man is going to be delivered into the hands of men. They will kill him, and after three days he will rise.”
Mark 9:31 NIV 2011

31 Jesus took the Twelve aside and told them, “We are going up to Jerusalem, and everything that is written by the prophets about the Son of Man will be fulfilled. 32 He will be delivered over to the Gentiles. They will mock him, insult him and spit on him; 33 they will flog him and kill him. On the third day he will rise again.”

34 The disciples did not understand any of this. Its meaning was hidden from them, and they did not know what he was talking about.
Luke 18:31-34 NIV 2011

22 When they came together in Galilee, he said to them, “The Son of Man is going to be delivered into the hands of men. 23 They will kill him, and on the third day he will be raised to life.” And the disciples were filled with grief.
Mathew 17:22-23 NIV 2011

17 Now Jesus was going up to Jerusalem. On the way, he took the Twelve aside and said to them, 18 “We are going up to Jerusalem, and the Son of Man will be delivered over to the chief priests and the teachers of the law. They will condemn him to death 19 and will hand him over to the Gentiles to be mocked and flogged and crucified. On the third day he will be raised to life!”
Mathew 20:17-19 NIV 2011

22 And he said, “The Son of Man must suffer many things and be rejected by the elders, the chief priests and the teachers of the law, and he must be killed and on the third day be raised to life.”
Luke 9:22 NIV 2011

18 The Jews then responded to him, “What sign can you show us to prove your authority to do all this?”

19 Jesus answered them, “Destroy this temple, and I will raise it again in three days.”

20 They replied, “It has taken forty-six years to build this temple, and you are going to raise it in three days?” 21 But the temple he had spoken of was his body. 22 After he was raised from the dead, his disciples recalled what he had said. Then they believed the scripture and the words that Jesus had spoken.
John 2:18-22 NIV 2011

 

[Isabella]

I am sorry, but that doesn't make any sense to me. he just seems to be talking about himself all the while or people assuming that he was, I am not sure that prophesying your own death several times takes much effort when you go around ticking off those trigger happy Romans . I don't understand why it is so profound? I think if you take away the spiritual love and communal 'he died for our sins....horribly' guilt part it wouldn't be any more profound than the Quran. I think it is the cultural knowledge of 'The Passion' which makes it so easy to connect to.

B

 

[DiscussingTheTopic]

I am sorry, but that doesn't make any sense to me. he just seems to be talking about himself all the while or people assuming that he was, I am not sure that prophesying your own death several times takes much effort when you go around ticking off those trigger happy Romans . I don't understand why it is so profound? I think if you take away the spiritual love and communal 'he died for our sins....horribly' guilt part it wouldn't be any more profound than the Quran. I think it is the cultural knowledge of 'The Passion' which makes it so easy to connect to.

B

Prophesying your own resurrection and then really rising from the dead, how often does that happen?

 

[Isabella]

Prophesying your own resurrection and then really rising from the dead, how often does that happen?

I don't know, but unless I see a CAT scan result I ain't buying!
And I am not saying it isn't unique, but is it worthy of worship?

I don't know, it is all very over the top to me.

B

 

[DiscussingTheTopic]

Prophesying your own resurrection and then really rising from the dead, how often does that happen?

I don't know, but unless I see a CAT scan result I ain't buying!
And I am not saying it isn't unique, but is it worthy of worship?

I don't know, it is all very over the top to me.

B

Do you think it is good reason to believe he is a prophet? How do people happen to predict their resurrection and then really resurrect short of supernatural means?

 

[Isabella]

I don't know DTT, it is all secondary evidence isn't it? I would rather trust primary evidence really, people can add whatever they want in later can't they?

B

 

[DiscussingTheTopic]

I don't know DTT, it is all secondary evidence isn't it? I would rather trust primary evidence really, people can add whatever they want in later can't they?

B

What do you mean by primary evidence vs. secondary evidence? How are you defining these two different terms?

 

[Isabella]

I don't know DTT, it is all secondary evidence isn't it? I would rather trust primary evidence really, people can add whatever they want in later can't they?

B

What do you mean by primary evidence vs. secondary evidence? How are you defining these two different terms?

Primary is something you have witnessed with your own eyes, secondary evidence is something someone else saw.

B

 

[DiscussingTheTopic]

I don't know DTT, it is all secondary evidence isn't it? I would rather trust primary evidence really, people can add whatever they want in later can't they?

B

What do you mean by primary evidence vs. secondary evidence? How are you defining these two different terms?

Primary is something you have witnessed with your own eyes, secondary evidence is something someone else saw.

B

So would no history before you were born be primary evidence to you?

Does this mean that you only prefer things that happened after you were born that you could see with your own eyes?

I would rather trust primary evidence really

How strong is your preference? To what extent are you willing to take into account secondary evidence (by your definition?) Do you accept the field of history to any degree regarding things before you were born?

 

[Isabella]

Hehe, I am not so arrogant to presume my eyes are the only safe ones, rather I am more inclined to trust the person who SAYS they saw a miracle, than the persons, grandsons wife's nephew!

B

 

[DiscussingTheTopic]

Hehe, I am not so arrogant to presume my eyes are the only safe ones, rather I am more inclined to trust the person who SAYS they saw a miracle, than the persons, grandsons wife's nephew!

B

So people saw Jesus alive and then people saw Jesus executed and then people saw him alive again.

Do you believe he was executed?

Do you believe people claimed to have seen Jesus alive again?

Some of the people who saw him alive again were the same people that wrote they saw him alive (not their , " grandsons wife's nephew!") so I really do not get what you mean by, " grandsons wife's nephew!"

 

[Isabella]

Hehe, I am not so arrogant to presume my eyes are the only safe ones, rather I am more inclined to trust the person who SAYS they saw a miracle, than the persons, grandsons wife's nephew!

B

So people saw Jesus alive and then people saw Jesus executed and then people saw him alive again.

Do you believe he was executed?

Do you believe people claimed to have seen Jesus alive again?

Some of the people who saw him alive again were the same people that wrote they saw him alive (not their , " grandsons wife's nephew!") so I really do not get what you mean by, " grandsons wife's nephew!"

That was an example DTT. Correct me if I am wrong but, isn't the NT entirely made up of secondary sources?

B

 

[DiscussingTheTopic]

Hehe, I am not so arrogant to presume my eyes are the only safe ones, rather I am more inclined to trust the person who SAYS they saw a miracle, than the persons, grandsons wife's nephew!

B

So people saw Jesus alive and then people saw Jesus executed and then people saw him alive again.

Do you believe he was executed?

Do you believe people claimed to have seen Jesus alive again?

Some of the people who saw him alive again were the same people that wrote they saw him alive (not their , " grandsons wife's nephew!") so I really do not get what you mean by, " grandsons wife's nephew!"

That was an example DTT. Correct me if I am wrong but, isn't the NT entirely made up of secondary sources?

B

If you define secondary sources as things Isabella has not seen with her own eyes? Yes, anything describing history before Isabella was born would be a secondary source.

If you define secondary sources some other way? Then possibly no

At least John, Paul and Peter wrote about what they themselves saw.

1 Paul, called to be an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God, and our brother Sosthenes,

2 To the church of God in Corinth, to those sanctified in Christ Jesus and called to be his holy people, together with all those everywhere who call on the name of our Lord Jesus Christ—their Lord and ours:
1 Corinthians 1:1-2 NIV 2011

3 For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance[a]: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4 that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures, 5 and that he appeared to Cephas, and then to the Twelve. 6 After that, he appeared to more than five hundred of the brothers and sisters at the same time, most of whom are still living, though some have fallen asleep. 7 Then he appeared to James, then to all the apostles, 8 and last of all he appeared to me also, as to one abnormally born.
1 Corinthians 15:3-8 NIV 2011

1 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ,

To God’s elect, exiles scattered throughout the provinces of Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia and Bithynia,
1 Peter 1:1 NIV 2011

3 Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! In his great mercy he has given us new birth into a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
1 Peter 1:3 NIV 2011

1 Simon Peter, a servant and apostle of Jesus Christ,

To those who through the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ have received a faith as precious as ours:

2 Peter 1:1 NIV 2011

16 For we did not follow cleverly devised stories when we told you about the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ in power, but we were eyewitnesses of his majesty.
2 Peter 1:16 NIV 2011

1 That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked at and our hands have touched—this we proclaim concerning the Word of life.
1 John 1:1 NIV 2011

This is the disciple who testifies to these things and who wrote them down. We know that his testimony is true.
John 21:24 NIV 2011

 

[Isabella]

Sorry, I am unfamiliar with the NT, are the Gospels written by Apostles? I have not read that, can you provide a source that I could understand?

B