Gap theory

[Asforme&myhouse]

(This conversation was started in another thread) not sure how to link it, sorry

The word made there is the word asah again. In Genesis 1:1 Moses used the word "bara" It doesn't mean much in English but it does in Hebrew. Asah carries the idea of taking something and turning it into something else. You would "asah" a stick and make an arrow. Bara doesn't carry that same thought behind it. You would bara love or barah music. We don't have seperate words for this like Hebrew so we translated 2 Hebrew words into the same English Word.

Also without an earth before Genesis 1:2 you can't have Satan walking in the fires of creation like in Issiah

And when was Lucifer in the Eden wearing every precious stone? It was before Genesis 1:2

Ezekiel 28 Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.

Also
2 Peter 3 5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:

During the flood of Noah's time the whole earth was flooded. Here the earth is standing out of the water and in. That means this flood is a different event.


We could go on but the important thing is that God made everything and by him all things were made.
Anyways If you want we can start another thread for creation but I don't want to derail this one any more.

Exodus 20:11 KJV
[11] For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is , and rested the seventh day: wherefore the Lord blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.


Satan was created within the six days of creation according to Exodus 20, so he would have been in Eden between the creation and the fall of man.

Also, if you put death before sin you have a problem. Scripture says that death came by sin. You’re putting death before sin.
Romans 5:12 KJV
[12] Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

 

[Soldier's Psalm]

You have a couple of issues you have to over come. 1

The Hebrew is not in your favor and what you are saying mostly only works in English because of the way it is translated.

2. You have a hard time trying to fit Satan in his roll before Adam ruling the world and as the anoited Cherub who lead the worship.

3. When did God make Water?

4. The Angels were there rejoicing when God made the Earth so they are not a part of the 6 day creation Cycle
Job 38:4“Where were you when I laid the foundations of the earth?
Tell Me, if you have understanding.
5Who determined its measurements?
Surely you know!
Or who stretched the line upon it?
6To what were its foundations fastened?
Or who laid its cornerstone,
7When the morning stars sang together,
And all the sons of God shouted for joy?

A side note. This isn't poetic talk. In the 6 days God spoke everything into existence. Here he is shaping the world and laying its cornerstone. You may try to say this is poetic talk but he is describing an event.

And to answer everyone's questions on the last thread. Of course Noah took the larger animals while they were younger.

Also, if you put death before sin you have a problem. Scripture says that death came by sin. You’re putting death before sin.
Romans 5:12 KJV
[12] Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

This is actually a problem for non gap theorist. With sin came death correct? So when Satan fell what was destroyed? What died? Afterall the punishment for sin is death. In the 6 days of recreation God remakes the world like he does one last time in Revelation and makes it perfect again. Satan's fall however brought death to the world before and God destroyed that world just like he will destroy this world and make a new one. It is the same cycle repeating. God's new world in Revelation will not have death even though this one before it does.

Another way to help prove this but don't knock it too hard because this is my own theory I am working on is that Sin produced death which produced time. Before Satan's fall there was no time. Once Satan fell Time started and we are at day one in the Creation story and we are counting time. Once God destroys this world and everything is made new again, time is no more. This is my own thoughts I really haven't had time to flesh out but I know there is more there I just haven't gotten it yet.

 

[Soldier's Psalm]

Since Eden is recorded in the Bible as existing as part of the Genesis Chapters 1 & 2 Creation Week, it would appear you have a complete contradiction and no room for your Gap theory. So yes, let's leave this now and get back on topic. Shalom

So there couldn't have been an Eden on the old World that Satan could have been serving as a high priest in? When this world is destroyed with all its cities will there not be a new Jerusalem on the new world in Revelation? Could God not have named an area on both worlds as eden just like he has a Jerusalem here and will have another on the new world to be created in the future?

 

[The Revolting Man]

You have a couple of issues you have to over come. 1

The Hebrew is not in your favor and what you are saying mostly only works in English because of the way it is translated.

2. You have a hard time trying to fit Satan in his roll before Adam ruling the world and as the anoited Cherub who lead the worship.

3. When did God make Water?

4. The Angels were there rejoicing when God made the Earth so they are not a part of the 6 day creation Cycle
Job 38:4“Where were you when I laid the foundations of the earth?
Tell Me, if you have understanding.
5Who determined its measurements?
Surely you know!
Or who stretched the line upon it?
6To what were its foundations fastened?
Or who laid its cornerstone,
7When the morning stars sang together,
And all the sons of God shouted for joy?

A side note. This isn't poetic talk. In the 6 days God spoke everything into existence. Here he is shaping the world and laying its cornerstone. You may try to say this is poetic talk but he is describing an event.

And to answer everyone's questions on the last thread. Of course Noah took the larger animals while they were younger.


This is actually a problem for non gap theorist. With sin came death correct? So when Satan fell what was destroyed? What died? Afterall the punishment for sin is death. In the 6 days of recreation God remakes the world like he does one last time in Revelation and makes it perfect again. Satan's fall however brought death to the world before and God destroyed that world just like he will destroy this world and make a new one. It is the same cycle repeating. God's new world in Revelation will not have death even though this one before it does.

Another way to help prove this but don't knock it too hard because this is my own theory I am working on is that Sin produced death which produced time. Before Satan's fall there was no time. Once Satan fell Time started and we are at day one in the Creation story. Once God destroys this world and everything is made new again, time is no more. This is my own thoughts I really haven't had time to flesh out but I know there is more there I just haven't gotten it yet.

Alright, vast amounts of what you are talking about falls in to the realm of interesting brain candy but the idea of the fall marking the beginning of “time” has merit. Time is an intellectual construct that really measure rate of decay. As there was no decay before the fall time really may not have existed then.

 

[steve]

When did God make Water?

Did anyone else’s mind stumble badly upon reading this phrase?

 

[Asforme&myhouse]

Alright, vast amounts of what you are talking about falls in to the realm of interesting brain candy but the idea of the fall marking the beginning of “time” has merit. Time is an intellectual construct that really measure rate of decay. As there was no decay before the fall time really may not have existed then.

Time... like “the first day” and “the second day”??? God created time. In quantum physics, I’m told, that time is an indispensable part of the equation, without which matter would lose location and therefore order.

 

[Asforme&myhouse]

Did anyone else’s mind stumble badly upon reading this phrase?

No lol God says he made everything in the heavens and the earth in six days. You really have to do a lot of eisegesis come to those conclusions.... like A LOT!

 

[The Revolting Man]

Time... like “the first day” and “the second day”??? God created time. In quantum physics, I’m told, that time is an indispensable part of the equation, without which matter would lose location and therefore order.

Eh, this may sound silly but days and weeks aren’t really time. Time only has meaning when it is passing. Time can’t pass in eternity. Eternity is a constant state of now with no past and no future. It’s why from heaven John could see the events of the Revelation. Don’t confuse time with sequence or ordering either.

 

[steve]

No lol God says he made everything in the heavens and the earth in six days. You really have to do a lot of eisegesis come to those conclusions.... like A LOT!

I think that you missed my meaning.
Think “watercloset”.

(I googlied just to make sure and found out that I am evidently speaking French )
Ps: ok, my mind is just that impure.

 

[Asforme&myhouse]

Eh, this may sound silly but days and weeks aren’t really time.

Really? Are hours and minutes time? What differentiates Seconds and hours from days, weeks, months, years, decades, centuries, and millenniums? Can you define what mean by “time”?

Correct me if I’m wrong, but doesn’t it say.... hang on, we need to look at the text.
Genesis 1:14 KJV
[14] And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years:

 

[Asforme&myhouse]

I think that you missed my meaning.
Think “watercloset”.

(I googlied just to make sure and found out that I am evidently speaking French )

I get it now! Lol

 

[The Revolting Man]

Really? Are hours and minutes time? What differentiates Seconds and hours from days, weeks, months, years, decades, centuries, and millenniums? Can you define what mean by “time”?

Correct me if I’m wrong, but doesn’t it say.... hang on, we need to look at the text.
Genesis 1:14 KJV
[14] And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years:

All I can tell you is what I already said. Time has no meaning if there is no change. We can mark cycles and designate sabbaths but time as a linear progression in the state of matter and energy has no meaning when there is no change in the state of matter and energy.

 

[Asforme&myhouse]

All I can tell you is what I already said. Time has no meaning if there is no change. We can mark cycles and designate sabbaths but time as a linear progression in the state of matter and energy has no meaning when there is no change in the state of matter and energy.

Isn’t that entropy? Entropy happens in time, but time isn’t created by entropy.

We are both arguing about something that I’m convinced neither of us has a clue what we talking about lol

 

[rockfox]

No lol God says he made everything in the heavens and the earth in six days. You really have to do a lot of eisegesis come to those conclusions.... like A LOT!

you might want to go back and read Genesis more closely....

In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. 2And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.....6And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters...9And God said, Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry land appear: and it was so.

That's 'before creation' yet there it is: waters. And no mention of creating water, only moving it about.

"Formless and void" could be translated "empty and ruined" In other words, modern Christianity sees it as the beginning of everything could simply have been a new beginning. A recreation. This isn't a gap theory but more cycles of creation. I realize that is 180 degrees from modern Christian understanding of clean slate creation from nothing; but it's not inconsistent with the text.

 

[FollowingHim]

The Hebrew is not in your favor and what you are saying mostly only works in English because of the way it is translated.

Anyone who wants to understand the Hebrew should buy the book "Unformed and unfilled" by Weston W. Fields. This is the most detailed study of the Hebrew that I know of, and shows very clearly that the Hebrew is solidly on the side of six-day Creation - when looked at in detail.

This is one of those issues where an initial look at the meanings of a few Hebrew words can lead you away from the plain meaning of the text, but a detailed study leads you back to the plain meaning again.

The whole idea of the Gap Theory was introduced into mainstream Christianity through the Schofield bible notes - the same notes that made the pre-tribulation rapture mainstream. Any theological position that was unusual pre-Schofield and suddenly became widespread post-Schofield should be treated with very strong suspicion, those positions tend to be erroneous for reasons.

 

[Asforme&myhouse]

you might want to go back and read Genesis more closely....



That's 'before creation' yet there it is: waters. And no mention of creating water, only moving it about.

"Formless and void" could be translated "empty and ruined" In other words, modern Christianity sees it as the beginning of everything could simply have been a new beginning. A recreation. This isn't a gap theory but more cycles of creation. I realize that is 180 degrees from modern Christian understanding of clean slate creation from nothing; but it's not inconsistent with the text.

Exodus 20 begs to differ with you.

 

[FollowingHim]

That's 'before creation' yet there it is: waters. And no mention of creating water, only moving it about.

That's not "before creation".
V1 says "In the Beginning God created the heavens and the earth". That's creation.
Then, v2 describes the earth that was created in the preceding verse - and states that it was dark and covered in water. Then the water was moved around.
But that's all after it was created.

 

[rockfox]

That's not "before creation".
V1 says "In the Beginning God created the heavens and the earth". That's creation.
Then, v2 describes the earth that was created in the preceding verse - and states that it was dark and covered in water. Then the water was moved around.
But that's all after it was created.

"In the Beginning God created the heavens and the earth" verse 1 is an introduction to the story of creation, not the creation itself. Heaven was created in v6-8 and earth in v9-10. Heaven couldn't have been created in verse 1, because the firmament wasn't there to divide the waters until it was created in verse 7 (day 2).

Furthermore, God spoke creation into existence (Psalm 33:9). Look at the passage, every time God creates it says "And God said". You don't have an "And God said" in verse 1. We don't get that until v3 with the first day creation of light. So v1 is intro, v2 describes how it was before, v3 is the start of this creation.

 

[FollowingHim]

I think you've made it far too complex, and the complexities you've created don't align with the Hebrew.

If the "earth" was not created until v9, I assume you mean the earth was created when He said "and let the dry land appear", correct?
The word "appear" here is ra'ah, and simply means to show, see, present. This does not describe creation of the land, simply the revealing of the land.
This makes perfect sense if the land and water were the "earth" created in v1, and in v9 the water was gathered together into seas allowing the dry land to "appear". It's simple, logical, and fits with both the plain reading and with the Hebrew of v9.

You are also confusing the words "Heaven" and "firmament". Heaven means everything that is up above us (the vast expanse of space). The "firmament" is referring to something very distinct - literally an "extended surface". It is used to refer to the visible sky, or we would say today the atmosphere (which is only a thin surface on the earth). It is not "heaven", just something within the heaven. When the waters were divided above and below the firmament, this is either referring to water being raised to form clouds, or to form a hypothetical pre-flood water vapour canopy above the atmosphere that contributed to different climatic conditions pre-flood and provided a portion of the floodwaters (40 days of rain is difficult to mathematically account for from clouds alone). Again, creation of the firmament is not creation of heaven.

To put it in modern physics terms, you could read v1 as being "in the beginning God created space and matter". Then He created light, which started to subdivide time, and He starts talking in terms of days as soon as this light exists (v5). Subsequent verses then talk about the rearrangement of that matter, initially to separate the water to form the structured planet we have today (dry land, seas, atmosphere, clouds etc) as a place to contain stuff, and then to make living things and ultimately man also, who is explicitly formed from this pre-existant "dust of the ground".

It's pretty simple, I'm not sure why people want to complicate it.

 

[rockfox]

Exodus 20 begs to differ with you.

I presume you mean this...

For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

That is not inconsistent with what I'm saying. "made" doesn't have to mean ex nihilo creation. How did God "make the earth"?

And God said, Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry land appear: and it was so. 10And God called the dry land Earth; and the gathering together of the waters called he Seas: and God saw that it was good. 11And God said, Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding seed, and the fruit tree yielding fruit after his kind, whose seed is in itself, upon the earth: and it was so. 12And the earth brought forth grass, and herb yielding seed after his kind, and the tree yielding fruit, whose seed was in itself, after his kind: and God saw that it was good.

He called the dry land earth, but it was not there until he gathered the waters into one place.

The whole idea of the Gap Theory was introduced into mainstream Christianity through the Schofield bible notes - the same notes that made the pre-tribulation rapture mainstream. Any theological position that was unusual pre-Schofield and suddenly became widespread post-Schofield should be treated with very strong suspicion, those positions tend to be erroneous for reasons.

This debate is far older than that, older even than Christianity, and not one the Jews were in agreement on.

You are also confusing the words "Heaven" and "firmament".

I'm not...."And God called the firmament Heaven"

To put it in modern physics terms

Which is the problem with most of what you said about heaven, you're reading modern astronomy into the creation narrative.