Future or fulfilled?

[PeteR]

Agreed. And, I would argue all, from Adam on, knew Messiah. Studies of the Angel of the Lord, the Memra de Yeya, etc, all provide solid evidence that from Adam and the garden in the cool of the day, man has walked with Yeshua.

All that said, the OP was 'fulfilled or unfulfilled?' regarding the new covenant. I say partial (... therefore, unfulfilled ), we're not there yet. We see pieces, shadows, etc, but there is much to be done before that can be stamped 'fulfilled' or 'completed.'

 

[Quartus]

Agreed. And, I would argue all, from Adam on, knew Messiah. Studies of the Angel of the Lord, the Memra de Yeya, etc, all provide solid evidence that from Adam and the garden in the cool of the day, man has walked with Yeshua.

All that said, the OP was 'fulfilled or unfulfilled?' regarding the new covenant. I say partial (... therefore, unfulfilled ), we're not there yet. We see pieces, shadows, etc, but there is much to be done before that can be stamped 'fulfilled' or 'completed.'

Absolutely.

Correct me if I'm wrong but the "cool of the day" is the time of the evening sacrifice? and the time that Christ died. and we know the sacrifice was a lamb from Rev 13:8. Genesis seems packed with hints that these things were well understood.

Everyone needed salvation from Christs's sacrifice, even Abraham. Salvation aspects must be totally fulfilled by Christ...
... and that ratified the covenant, thereby making it new "in his blood"
and 'once' means it's effective backwards and forwards for every age

but the kingly part of the covenant still remains to be fulfilled. We're seeing the evidence that these things have not been forgotten and the plan is being worked out but there is a lot of prophecy that has not yet been fulfilled.

1Co 15:24 Then comes the end, when He delivers the kingdom to God the Father, when He puts an end to all rule and all authority and power.
1Co 15:25 For He must reign till He has put all enemies under His feet.
1Co 15:26 The last enemy that will be destroyed is death.

 

[rockfox]

Then He said to him, “A certain man gave a great supper and invited many, and sent his servant at supper time to say to those who were invited, ‘Come, for all things are now ready.’

But they all with one accord began to make excuses. The first said to him, ‘I have bought a piece of ground, and I must go and see it. I ask you to have me excused.’ And another said, ‘I have bought five yoke of oxen, and I am going to test them. I ask you to have me excused.’ Still another said, ‘I have married a wife, and therefore I cannot come.’ So that servant came and reported these things to his master.

Then the master of the house, being angry, said to his servant, ‘Go out quickly into the streets and lanes of the city, and bring in here the poor and the maimed and the lame and the blind.’

And the servant said, ‘Master, it is done as you commanded, and still there is room.’

Then the master said to the servant, ‘Go out into the highways and hedges, and compel them to come in, that my house may be filled. For I say to you that none of those men who were invited shall taste my supper.’ ”

As He says also in Hosea:

“I will call them My people, who were not My people,
And her beloved, who was not beloved.”
"And it shall come to pass in the place where it was said to them,
‘You are not My people,’
There they shall be called sons of the living God.”

What shall we say then? That Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness of faith; but Israel, pursuing the law of righteousness, has not attained to the law of righteousness. Why? Because they did not seek it by faith, but as it were, by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumbling stone. As it is written:

“Behold, I lay in Zion a stumbling stone and rock of offense,
And whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame.”

 

[The Revolting Man]

This is eisegesis, You’re imposing it onto the text. Jesus told them it wasn’t for them to know. And then you say they knew what came next??

Acts 15 does not say that learning Moses on the sabbath in the synagogue was necessary, again you’re reading that into the text.



Faulty assumption. Whether or not there are Old Testament prophecies that are still yet to be fulfilled or partially fulfilled does not mean that the new covenant has not been put in force. You are arguing against the words of Christ and the words of Christ through His Apostles.
[QUOTE="PeteR, post: 217626, member: 2203"

We need a thread defining “new covenant”. The phrase gets thrown around a lot and I don’t think anyone can articulate what that means all that well.

 

[The Revolting Man]

This is the subject you are unwilling to dive into. Your view justifies the wicked and makes excuses for those who murdered Yeshua. Yeshua told a parable....those Jews in it didn't take a "wait and see" approach. The parable in Luke 20 tells us ....

13Then said the lord of the vineyard, What shall I do? I will send my beloved son: it may be they will reverence him when they see him. 14But when the husbandmen saw him, they reasoned among themselves, saying, This is the heir: come, let us kill him, that the inheritance may be ours.

And of course there is the history of that other people you don't want to talk about either, but NO COVENANT was made by YHWH with Edom.....and they were there and mixed with the children of Israel at that time.

The Jews didn’t “murder Yashua”. If anyone did it was the Romans. Seeing as how the act appears to have been ordained from the beginning of Creation though it seems like the word “murder” is more than a little hyperbolic.

 

[frederick]

The Jews didn’t “murder Yashua”.

Acts 7:52 Which of the prophets did your fathers not persecute? And they killed those who foretold the coming of the Just One, of whom you now have become the betrayers and murderers,

 

[PeteR]

It was a group effort implicating all of humanity. To lay the death of Messiah at the feet of one ethnic group and not our own is just plain wickedness. The Lord of Glory died for my sin and if I'd been there, I'd probably have been as self righteous and blind as the rest of the frothing crowd... Jew and non-.

Anyone who claims otherwise is deluded or ignorant.

 

[steve]

In their understanding, they felt that they were doing the right thing before Yah.

It’s awfully easy to get self righteous from our vantage point.

 

[Joleneakamama]

The Jews didn’t “murder Yashua”. If anyone did it was the Romans. Seeing as how the act appears to have been ordained from the beginning of Creation though it seems like the word “murder” is more than a little hyperbolic.

I actually believe the Judahites went along with what the Edomites pushed for.

What do you call it when people conspire to kill, and then do make that someone biologically inactive so they can take what is rightfully his?

I was responding to Pete's comment about Jews not being wrong when they take a wait and see approach to Yeshua. That parable He spoke actually tells us that they did recognize him, and killed him to try to keep their positions in the land and over the people.

 

[Joleneakamama]

In their understanding, they felt that they were doing the right thing before Yah.

It’s awfully easy to get self righteous from our vantage point.

Self righteous? We know that YHWH counted all under sin, and Yeshua died for those sins.
Even his taught ones sinned and were under that umbrella of "all have sinned."
We are not claiming to be without sin, by identifying this act as sinful. We just see no way to reconcile your statement about their intentions with the words YHWH spoke through Yeshua in that parable. Obviously it was ordained, like Joseph being sold into Egypt, and what they intended for evil, YHWH intended for good.
He said "There must needs be offences but woe unto them by whom they come.

So if David was guilty of Uriah's death, these "vine dressers" of the parable were guilty of conspiring and killing Yeshua. Pilot washed his hands and told them "You see to it" not even instructing the soldiers to assist. While these vinedressers said "Let his blood be upon us and upon our children."

None of us are perfect, but if He said these were guilty, I am not going to justify the wicked. I can't say they intended to do right.

The rich man and Lazerus teaches that these same people ....would not be persuaded even if one rose from the dead.

 

[Quartus]

The rich man and Lazerus teaches that these same people ....would not be persuaded even if one rose from the dead.

Nor were they at the time Christ had to suffer at his first coming.

But (Zech 12:8-14) teaches that their children will be persuaded when Jesus returns as the King Messiah .

How are you seeing this reference?

Zec 12:8 In that day the LORD will defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem; the one who is feeble among them in that day shall be like David, and the house of David shall be like God, like the Angel of the LORD before them.
Zec 12:9 It shall be in that day that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem.
Zec 12:10 "And I will pour on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem the Spirit of grace and supplication; then they will look on Me whom they pierced. Yes, they will mourn for Him as one mourns for his only son, and grieve for Him as one grieves for a firstborn.
Zec 12:11 In that day there shall be a great mourning in Jerusalem, like the mourning at Hadad Rimmon in the plain of Megiddo.
Zec 12:12 And the land shall mourn, every family by itself: the family of the house of David by itself, and their wives by themselves; the family of the house of Nathan by itself, and their wives by themselves;
Zec 12:13 the family of the house of Levi by itself, and their wives by themselves; the family of Shimei by itself, and their wives by themselves;
Zec 12:14 all the families that remain, every family by itself, and their wives by themselves.

 

[frederick]

To lay the death of Messiah at the feet of one ethnic group and not our own is just plain wickedness.

Why? Peter did. Acts 2:36 “Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly that God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ.”

 

[The Revolting Man]

Acts 7:52 Which of the prophets did your fathers not persecute? And they killed those who foretold the coming of the Just One, of whom you now have become the betrayers and murderers,

Nice verse, I don’t see Jesus in there though.

 

[The Revolting Man]

I actually believe the Judahites went along with what the Edomites pushed for.

What do you call it when people conspire to kill, and then do make that someone biologically inactive so they can take what is rightfully his?

I was responding to Pete's comment about Jews not being wrong when they take a wait and see approach to Yeshua. That parable He spoke actually tells us that they did recognize him, and killed him to try to keep their positions in the land and over the people.

Speculation upon wild fantasy, you still haven’t proven the Edomites were there.

 

[The Revolting Man]

Why? Peter did. Acts 2:36 “Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly that God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ.”

Who did the deed? No one is saying the Sanhedrin weren’t complicit or weren’t bad people. To accuse an entire people of murder when only a select few of them were even involved is ludicrousness and puts one on the side of some of the most noxious and destructive ideologies of the last 100 years.

 

[frederick]

Nice verse, I don’t see Jesus in there though.

Same Person being referred to in Acts 22:14; Then he said, ‘The God of our fathers has chosen you that you should know His will, and see the Just One, and hear the voice of His mouth.

 

[MeganC]

Over the years I've adopted some Jewish traditions like the Passover Seder and we will be doing it again this Friday. We have a mezuza on the front door post. We light a menorah for Hanukah. When I started doing this Pastor Dennis liked it but told me not to get caught up in the rituals like the Jews did and he talked about the Crucifixion.

He said the Jews were too worried about the processes and less worried about the outcomes. Like in Jewish tradition you can do something the right way, have it fail, and that's better than if you did it wrong and had it work.

Christians need to be focused on the outcomes and not the processes. Our goal is eternal life and we can't be distracted by rituals, processes, or traditions if they come between us and salvation.

The Jewish people who called for Jesus to be crucified were slaves to their processes and we have to celebrate them because they fulfilled prophecy and in doing so drew a line between faith and ritual.

Rituals will not get you into Heaven. Faith will.

And only Jesus on a cross could prove this to a sinful world.

 

[steve]

Every road has two ditches.
As I see this one, faith in every known tradition is the ditch on one side and faith in salvation with no attempt at obedience is the ditch on the other side.

 

[Isaac]

Every road has two ditches.
As I see this one, faith in every known tradition is the ditch on one side and faith in salvation with no attempt at obedience is the ditch on the other side.

What does “no attempt at obedience” look like to you?

 

[rockfox]

You have heard it said...

To lay the death of Messiah at the feet of one ethnic group and not our own is just plain wickedness.

But Stephen says...

Which of the prophets have not your fathers persecuted? and they have slain them which shewed before of the coming of the Just One; of whom ye have been now the betrayers and murderers:

And Peter says...

“Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly that God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ.”

And the victim says...

Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! Because you build the tombs of the prophets and [m]adorn the monuments of the righteous, and say, ‘If we had lived in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets.’

“Therefore you are witnesses against yourselves that you are sons of those who murdered the prophets. Fill up, then, the measure of your fathers’ guilt. Serpents, brood of vipers! How can you escape the condemnation of hell?

Therefore, indeed, I send you prophets, wise men, and scribes: some of them you will kill and crucify, and some of them you will scourge in your synagogues and persecute from city to city, that on you may come all the righteous blood shed on the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah, son of Berechiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar.

Assuredly, I say to you, all these things will come upon this generation.

and

“If God were your Father, you would love Me, for I proceeded forth and came from God; nor have I come of Myself, but He sent Me. Why do you not understand My speech? Because you are not able to listen to My word.

You are of your father the devil, and the desires of your father you want to do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own resources, for he is a liar and the father of it.

But because I tell the truth, you do not believe Me. Which of you convicts Me of sin? And if I tell the truth, why do you not believe Me? He who is of God hears God’s words; therefore you do not hear, because you are not of God.”

But ya, those speakers are full of wickedness and there is no reason at all God would cut off Israel in favor of a new people.