Future or fulfilled?

[Quartus]

@PeteR Yes Acts is an excellent resource for understanding what the of the apostles actually preached and practised. The verses you quote serve as an index to the whole book. Here is a covenant reference from the early Jerusalem period:

Act 3:25 Ye are the children of the prophets, and of the covenant which God made with our fathers, saying unto Abraham, And in thy seed shall all the kindreds of the earth be blessed.
Act 3:26 Unto you first God, having raised up his Son Jesus, sent him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from his iniquities.

So the Abrahamic covenant, newly ratified and brought into force by the blood of Christ, was first offered to national Israel, even after the crucifixion, but sadly they rejected that offer, persecuted and killed the apostles who preached it, and brought upon them the judgments of AD70.

I can’t imagine anything further from this:
Jer 31:33 But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the LORD: I will put My law in their minds, and write it on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.

And how does AD70 fulfil this:
Jer 31:34 For I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more."

If they had accepted the covenant in the time of the apostles, they would have received the blessings of Deut 28. Instead they received the final curse of Deut 28: AD70.

 

[Quartus]

Chapters 8-9 of Hebrews seem to make it clear that Jesus is the fulfillment of Jeremiah 31’s prophecy.

Do you regard Jer 31:33 to refer only to Christ confirming the new covenant and you don’t look for any national fulfilment? Because I think it’s the other way round, and I would look elsewhere for prophecies about Christ’s victory over sin.

In Heb 8:10 (quoting Jer 31:33) this is to the house of Israel, to a people.

Also in Heb 8:7-13, Paul describes a first and a second covenant, an old and a new one, as well as one that is better. I think there are only two covenants, the Abrahamic and the Mosaic. Do you consider the Jeremiah covenant a third covenant, and if not, how is one of the existing covenants “new”?
Which covenant do you consider is being referred to as we move through these verses?

 

[Asforme&myhouse]

Do you regard Jer 31:33 to refer only to Christ confirming the new covenant and you don’t look for any national fulfilment? Because I think it’s the other way round, and I would look elsewhere for prophecies about Christ’s victory over sin.

In Heb 8:10 (quoting Jer 31:33) this is to the house of Israel, to a people.

Also in Heb 8:7-13, Paul describes a first and a second covenant, an old and a new one, as well as one that is better. I think there are only two covenants, the Abrahamic and the Mosaic. Do you consider the Jeremiah covenant a third covenant, and if not, how is one of the existing covenants “new”?
Which covenant do you consider is being referred to as we move through these verses?

The book of Hebrews is written to Hebrews and explains to Hebrews that the new covenant is in force and that the old covenant has been replaced with the new. The writer of Hebrews (really we should say, the Holy Spirit who inspired Hebrews and the rest of Scripture) uses Jeremiah 31:33 to show that the new covenant spoken of there is the one he is referring to. Whether or not there is a future aspect to the prophecy in Jerehmiah has no bearing on whether or not the new covenant is in effect.

 

[PeteR]

Whether or not there is a future aspect to the prophecy in Jerehmiah has no bearing on whether or not the new covenant is in effect.

I.e., partial fulfillment. The sign of its fulfillment has not happened. People are still teaching 'know the Lord' and Torah (the Law) is not written on our hearts...

 

[Asforme&myhouse]

God never prophesied a new people or change of plan. The plan is and always has been Israel, Israel, and. ... uhmmm, Israel. And, per hundreds of Scriptures, Israel is two parts with separate destinies through history: house of Israel (aka Ephraim, Joseph, .. church..) and, house of Judah (aka Jews).

Are you sure about that?


Romans 9:25-33 KJV
[25] As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved. [26] And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God. [27] Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved: [28] For he will finish the work, and cut it short in righteousness: because a short work will the Lord make upon the earth. [29] And as Esaias said before, Except the Lord of Sabaoth had left us a seed, we had been as Sodoma, and been made like unto Gomorrha. [30] What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith. [31] But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness. [32] Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone; [33] As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.


Galatians 3:24-29 KJV
[24] Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. [25] But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster. [26] For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. [27] For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. [28] There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. [29] And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

 

[Asforme&myhouse]

I.e., partial fulfillment. The sign of its fulfillment has not happened. People are still teaching 'know the Lord' and Torah (the Law) is not written on our hearts...

Romans 2:11-16 KJV
[11] For there is no respect of persons with God. [12] For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law; [13] (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified. [14] For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: [15] Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another [16] In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.

 

[Joleneakamama]

Christ also inherited the land (Gen 12:7).
So once Israel had been expelled from the land (Deut 28: 64)
how could Christ inherit the promise if the land and people were not restored to Israel according to a literal fulfilment of prophecies such as Ezek 37:21-22?

For starters Ezekiel 36:1 reads. Also, thou son of man, prophesy unto the mountains of Israel, and say, Ye mountains of Israel, hear the word of the Lord:

Now mountains in prophesy are nations. Plural nations of Israel should be expected as He also told them in Isaiah 54:3 For you shall expand to the right and to the left, And your descendants will inherit the nations, And make the desolate cities inhabited.

He also told Jacob/Israel a nation and company of nations would come from him.

Zechariah 10:8
I will hiss for them, and gather them; for I have redeemed them: and they shall increase as they have increased.

9 And I will sow them among the people: and they shall remember me in far countries; and they shall live with their children, and turn again.

Christ inherited a whole lot more then promises or that land! He is king of kings and lord of lords! He inherited the throne of David and is already on it!

He does not dwell in temples made with hands. For a look at the fulfillment of the two houses here is Ephesians 2

13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.

14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;

15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;

16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:

17 And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh.

18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.

19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;

20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;

21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:

22 In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.

He is reigning now, in the new Jerusalem in the temples nor made with hands.

He is not just Abraham's heir, or David's heir, He is YHWH's son and heir! He did not just inherit the "ancient high places" in that land....he got it ALL!

Those possessing the land after Israel got the boot are another matter, but YHWH said He would settle them after their old estates, and do better to them then at their beginnings. What do you all think that means??

 

[PeteR]

Are you sure about that?


Romans 9:25-33 KJV
[25] As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved. [26] And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God. [27] Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved: [28] For he will finish the work, and cut it short in righteousness: because a short work will the Lord make upon the earth. [29] And as Esaias said before, Except the Lord of Sabaoth had left us a seed, we had been as Sodoma, and been made like unto Gomorrha. [30] What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith. [31] But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness. [32] Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone; [33] As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.


Galatians 3:24-29 KJV
[24] Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. [25] But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster. [26] For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. [27] For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. [28] There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. [29] And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Please read the Hosea passage in context in Hosea 1. There were no chapter and verse deignations, so a line was quoted to send the reader to the context. If you read Hosea 1 you will see Paul is explaining how the house of Israel can return to the covenant. He is not talking about a new people. He is explaining the restoration of the kingdom. The house of Israel had been dispersed into the Gentiles and been assimilated...

Re Galatians and the schoolmaster.. just because you graduated from high school doesn't mean the rules of geometry cease to apply. You may not get a red mark on your paper, but geometry is still truth and the rules are everlasting.

Likewise, God's perfect Law is everlasting and is still the measure of righteousness. We may not recieve the curses when we fail because of faith in Messiah, but it is still everlasting righteousness, or He lied.

Example: Malachi 4:4-5.. has the Day of the Lord happened? If not, then you should be 'remember(ing) the Torah of Moses, even the statutes and ordinances...'

Passover is an ordinance that is forever, in all your dwelling places, throughout your generations. Ex. 12:14, 24, 42-49; 13:3-10!

Interestingly, this is the very ordinance Paul is thinking of when he writes your Galatians citation. Passover is the only place in Torah where there is neither male nor female, slave nor free, Jew nor Greek (Hebrew or sojourner). All are children of Abraham by faith in Messiah.

BTW, Passover is the end of this week. I strongly recommend keeping it and Firstfruits, feasts that are actually commanded by God as everlasting feasts instead of the manmade holidays entirely absent from Scripture. See Lev. 23:14, 21, 31, 41.

 

[Asforme&myhouse]

@Quartus I agree with what you have here. Yeshua confirms it and takes it a step further in Acts 1:6-8 when the disciples ask Him their most pressing question before His departure:

"Lord, is it at this time You are RESTORING the kingdom to Israel?"

He does not deny the question but tells them where to begin the work: Jerusalem and Judea; Samaria and the uttermost parts of the earth. Why those places?

Jerusalem was the capital of the house of Judah while Judea was their primary residence.

Samaria was the (late) capital of the house of Israel and the uttermost parts of the earth was where they had been scattered.

The apostles understood the next step in restoration. Yeshua made a way that the lost sheep of the house of Israel could come back into covenant after they had been divorced. That's why they addressed letters to the twelve tribes scattered abroad, it's why they continually referred to the prophecies, it is why in Acts 15 they said conversion to Judaism (party of the circumcision) was not necessary, but learning Moses on the Sabbath in the synagogue was. (15:20-21)

This is eisegesis, You’re imposing it onto the text. Jesus told them it wasn’t for them to know. And then you say they knew what came next??

Acts 15 does not say that learning Moses on the sabbath in the synagogue was necessary, again you’re reading that into the text.

Christendom has long redefined prophecy according to their contextless spiritualizing because in no meaningful way could they envision the dead nation of Israel coming back to life on the Land, exactly as propfesied. Yet, as @Quartus points out, the last 100 years have radically changed eschatological understanding because the house of Judah has returned to the Land. Folks, this fact alone proves that there is continuing fulfillment of the prophets, post Yeshua's first coming.

The simple fact is, Yeshua still has work to do as defined by the prophets.

Controversial (triggering): The Jews are not wrong when they take a 'wait and see' approach toward Yeshua... He hasn't finished the job, and by His own mouth, He 'came only for the lost sheep of the house of Israel.' (Matt. 15:24) Fact: The house of Judah is not and never has been out of covenant with Yahweh. They need redemption, but not the same way the divorced house of Israel does.. but, that is a deeper subject Christians are wholly unprepared to dive into.

Bottom-line: unfulfilled! There is more to be done before the New Covenant is in place. The evidence that it is fulfilled is,

Faulty assumption. Whether or not there are Old Testament prophecies that are still yet to be fulfilled or partially fulfilled does not mean that the new covenant has not been put in force. You are arguing against the words of Christ and the words of Christ through His Apostles.
[QUOTE="PeteR, post: 217626, member: 2203"

 

[Joleneakamama]

God never prophesied a new people or change of plan. The plan is and always has been Israel, Israel, and. ... uhmmm, Israel. And, per hundreds of Scriptures, Israel is two parts with separate destinies through history: house of Israel (aka Ephraim, Joseph, .. church..) and, house of Judah (aka Jews).

God did prophesy a change of NAME, and yes, He prophesied a change of plan too.
Jeremiah 7
1 The word that came to Jeremiah from the Lord, saying, 2 “Stand in the gate of the Lord’s house, and proclaim there this word, and say, ‘Hear the word of the Lord, all you of Judah who enter in at these gates to worship the Lord!’ ” 3 Thus says the Lord of hosts, the God of Israel: “Amend your ways and your doings, and I will cause you to dwell in this place. 4 Do not trust in these lying words, saying, ‘The temple of the Lord, the temple of the Lord, the temple of the Lord are these.’

5 “For if you thoroughly amend your ways and your doings, if you thoroughly execute judgment between a man and his neighbor, 6 if you do not oppress the stranger, the fatherless, and the widow, and do not shed innocent blood in this place, or walk after other gods to your hurt, 7 then I will cause you to dwell in this place, in the land that I gave to your fathers forever and ever......
....
12 “But go now to My place which was in Shiloh, where I set My name at the first, and see what I did to it because of the wickedness of My people Israel. 13 And now, because you have done all these works,” says the Lord, “and I spoke to you, rising up early and speaking, but you did not hear, and I called you, but you did not answer, 14 therefore I will do to the house which is called by My name, in which you trust, and to this place which I gave to you and your fathers, as I have done to Shiloh. 15 And I will cast you out of My sight, as I have cast out all your brethren—the whole posterity of Ephraim.

27 “Therefore you shall speak all these words to them, but they will not obey you. You shall also call to them, but they will not answer you.

34 Then I will cause to cease from the cities of Judah and from the streets of Jerusalem the voice of mirth and the voice of gladness, the voice of the bridegroom and the voice of the bride. For the land shall be desolate.

Now that land was offered to the children of Israel, but He knew they would not listen or change their ways. So right here He prophesied the change in plan. He tells them they are going to get booted out. He can still keep that promise to Abraham by leaving it to Ishmael's descendants, AND also do what He said through Isaiah and do better to Israel then at their beginnings by blessing them in and with other lands.
He prophesied a NEW LAND!

The plan has always been Christ, Christ, and ... ummmm Christ.

YHWH is the author and finisher of our faith. Everything before Yeshua came pointed to him, and everything after confirms him as heir.

 

[PeteR]

This is eisegesis, You’re imposing it onto the text. Jesus told them it wasn’t for them to know.

False. Yeshua said, 'it's not for you to know the times...' They knew the mission, confirmed by James in Acts 15 when he quotes Amos 9. Go read verses 8-15. They are about the restoration of the house of Israel (v 9) and 'My people Israel' (v14).

Listen, everytime an apostle quotes a phrase from the 'old' testament, make it a point to read that whole passage in context. They aren't citing one verse or phrase. They are pointing to whole passages and books to support their points.

 

[Joleneakamama]

Controversial (triggering): The Jews are not wrong when they take a 'wait and see' approach toward Yeshua... He hasn't finished the job, and by His own mouth, He 'came only for the lost sheep of the house of Israel.' (Matt. 15:24) Fact: The house of Judah is not and never has been out of covenant with Yahweh. They need redemption, but not the same way the divorced house of Israel does.. but, that is a deeper subject Christians are wholly unprepared to dive into.

This is the subject you are unwilling to dive into. Your view justifies the wicked and makes excuses for those who murdered Yeshua. Yeshua told a parable....those Jews in it didn't take a "wait and see" approach. The parable in Luke 20 tells us ....

13Then said the lord of the vineyard, What shall I do? I will send my beloved son: it may be they will reverence him when they see him. 14But when the husbandmen saw him, they reasoned among themselves, saying, This is the heir: come, let us kill him, that the inheritance may be ours.

And of course there is the history of that other people you don't want to talk about either, but NO COVENANT was made by YHWH with Edom.....and they were there and mixed with the children of Israel at that time.

 

[PeteR]

Uhmmm.. @Joleneakamama the prophecies are that Ephraim returns to and ocuppies Israel, 'they will live on the land that I gave to Jacob my servant, in which your fathers lived..'

See Jeremiah 31, Ezekiel 37, Deuteronomy 30. Even the New Jerusalem winds up there. Not here!

 

[PeteR]

This is the subject you are unwilling to dive into. Your view justifies the wicked and makes excuses for those who murdered Yeshua. Yeshua told a parable....those Jews in it didn't take a "wait and see" approach. The parable in Luke 20 tells us ....

13Then said the lord of the vineyard, What shall I do? I will send my beloved son: it may be they will reverence him when they see him. 14But when the husbandmen saw him, they reasoned among themselves, saying, This is the heir: come, let us kill him, that the inheritance may be ours.

And of course there is the history of that other people you don't want to talk about either, but NO COVENANT was made by YHWH with Edom.....and they were there and mixed with the children of Israel at that time.

I have clearly stated that God has cleaning up to do there, too. I am not their judge and I refuse to enter into or tolerate hate against my brother.

And, for the record I killed Yeshua. MY sin hung Him on the tree. Blaming the Jews is antisemitism when you don't condemn the Romans in the same breath. Get over that hateful garbage.

God will take care of justice and preserve the righteous among them. There will be many Jews in the Kingdom, some are modern, maybe even reading this thread. I hope that makes you uncomfortable. If it doesn't, you need a heart check.

 

[Joleneakamama]

Uhmmm.. @Joleneakamama the prophecies are that Ephraim returns to and ocuppies Israel, 'they will live on the land that I gave to Jacob my servant, in which your fathers lived..'

See Jeremiah 31, Ezekiel 37, Deuteronomy 30. Even the New Jerusalem winds up there. Not here!

Actually, Ezekiel paints a different picture.

37:20 And the sticks whereon thou writest shall be in thine hand before their eyes.

21 And say unto them, Thus saith the Lord God; Behold, I will take the children of Israel from among the heathen, whither they be gone, and will gather them on every side, and bring them into their own land:

22 And I will make them one nation in the land upon the mountains of Israel; and one king shall be king to them all: and they shall be no more two nations, neither shall they be divided into two kingdoms any more at all.

Don't forget Gen. 49:10 The sceptre shall not depart from Judah, nor a lawgiver from between his feet, until Shiloh come; and unto him shall the gathering of the people be.

Now look at the description of the land invaded by Gog and Magog in Ezekiel. It can never be that land.

Do you really believe YHWH just gave all these other choice lands to people that are not Israelites? Or did the name change as prophesied, and their own land turn out to be bigger and better?

He told David when they were in that land, that He would appoint a place for His people where they would move no more.
Then later they outgrow another place, (the British Isles?) and say "This place is too small.....give us room"

A posterity that are uncountable....need room.

 

[Joleneakamama]

Blaming the Jews is antisemitism when you don't condemn the Romans in the same breath. G

Why would I condemn Pilot who who proclaimed His innocence and washed his hands?

God will take care of justice and preserve the righteous among them.

I couldn't agree more.

There will be many Jews in the Kingdom, some are modern, maybe even reading this thread. I hope that makes you uncomfortable. If it doesn't, you need a heart check.

I joyfully accept any that that come to salvation. I have already stated that any accepting Yeshua are part of the body.

But I was talking about another people....whose claim is called blasphemy.

Get over that hateful garbage.

Obadiah is still in your bible, right?

So, you are not going to judge those rejecting Yeshua, (because these are the only ones I take issue with) but you are going to Judge me for not accepting these because I think the fruit of antichrist teachers is bad? That is some real irony.

Charging someone with antisemitism is kinda pointless if, as revelation states, some claim to be Jews falsely. You know I have no hatred or even dislike for anyone because they descended from Jacob/Israel. Judah is my family too. I just don't recognize those that don't recognize Yeshua, and I won't bid "God speed" or otherwise bless them either.

Yes, they need salvation too, but they can only come to Him if He calls them.

This is a side issue, and I'd rather not see this thread shut down because someone starting swinging the antisemite stick again.

 

[Joleneakamama]

"Lord, is it at this time You are RESTORING the kingdom to Israel?"

They knew the mission, confirmed by James in Acts 15 when he quotes Amos 9. Go read verses 8-15. They are about the restoration of the house of Israel (v 9) and 'My people Israel' (v14).

The reign was restored to Israel. But since Shiloh aka the Good Shepherd aka the Holy One of Israel has come, there is one nation, one King, one shepherd and all believers including the strangers mentioned in Isaiah 56.

56 Thus saith the Lord, Keep ye judgment, and do justice: for my salvation is near to come, and my righteousness to be revealed.

2 Blessed is the man that doeth this, and the son of man that layeth hold on it; that keepeth the sabbath from polluting it, and keepeth his hand from doing any evil.

3 Neither let the son of the stranger, that hath joined himself to the Lord, speak, saying, The Lord hath utterly separated me from his people: neither let the eunuch say, Behold, I am a dry tree.

4 For thus saith the Lord unto the eunuchs that keep my sabbaths, and choose the things that please me, and take hold of my covenant;

5 Even unto them will I give in mine house and within my walls a place and a name better than of sons and of daughters: I will give them an everlasting name, that shall not be cut off.

6 Also the sons of the stranger, that join themselves to the Lord, to serve him, and to love the name of the Lord, to be his servants, every one that keepeth the sabbath from polluting it, and taketh hold of my covenant;

7 Even them will I bring to my holy mountain, and make them joyful in my house of prayer: their burnt offerings and their sacrifices shall be accepted upon mine altar; for mine house shall be called an house of prayer for all people.

8 The Lord God, which gathereth the outcasts of Israel saith, Yet will I gather others to him, beside those that are gathered unto him.

 

[Joleneakamama]

There are a couple passages that make us doubt that the Zionist centric thing happening over there is really Judah being given that land back. YHWH said He would do to that land what He did to Shiloh, and after the ark was taken and Eli's sons killed...and Eli broke his neck, his grandson was named Ichabod because the glory of the lord had departed from Israel. After this Samuel judged the people in other cities because YHWH left Shiloh desolate. There is nothing we are aware of indicating He ever reversed that condition there.....so the desolate in Jeremiah 7 might be permanent too.

Then too in Ezekiel 36 it talks about the enemy saying "Aha, even the ancient high places are ours in possession" and talks about Edom appointing His land into their possession.

Jerusalem was certainly an ancient high place of worship.....but it wasn't ancient back then, so this may be a prophesy for later days. The majority of those possessing that land are not messianic.....and if they are rejecting Him they might be from that other family that has a perpetual hatred for the children of Israel.

Possessing something does not always mean it was given. Without accepting Yeshua and obeying Him these are not obeying Moses who prophesied Yeshua.

We believe there is a remnant of Judah in Judaism, but the scriptures say they are given up "until she who has labored has brought forth," then they get reunited with their brethren. So it seems the place to put effort is in bringing forth the kingdom....not changing their minds before that happens.

This is why we stand where we do in this matter.

 

[Quartus]

The book of Hebrews is written to Hebrews and explains to Hebrews that the new covenant is in force and that the old covenant has been replaced with the new. The writer of Hebrews (really we should say, the Holy Spirit who inspired Hebrews and the rest of Scripture) uses Jeremiah 31:33 to show that the new covenant spoken of there is the one he is referring to. Whether or not there is a future aspect to the prophecy in Jerehmiah has no bearing on whether or not the new covenant is in effect.

Thanks for your reply. I can agree with what you have written although we obviously continue to think an entirely different point is being made from Jer 31:33.


Before we move on from Hebrews 8-9 though it may be worth considering the import of this passage as it helps guide us through the end of Heb 8

Heb 9:15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.
Heb 9:16 For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.
Heb 9:17 For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.

So the Abrahamic covenant was never in force until the death of Christ.
But the testator of the Mosaic Covenant was Moses. Immediately after his death, Israel took possession of the promised land.
So the first was last and the last first.
The new covenant is therefore the Abrahamic covenant, which is "new" after it is confirmed by the death of Christ.
The Mosaic covenant had been in place for centuries before that.
The covenant that was "new" was the Abrahamic covenant that Moses had already written about in Genesis (Gal 3:16-17).


In the time of the apostles national Israel rejected the offer of the Abrahamic blessing of the New Covenant in Christ’s blood (Acts 3:25-26). They aren’t going to be ready to accept it nationally until Messiah comes again and saves Israel from the nations that threaten to annihilate them (Zech 12 especially vv11-14).

 

[Quartus]

For starters Ezekiel 36:1 reads. Also, thou son of man, prophesy unto the mountains of Israel, and say, Ye mountains of Israel, hear the word of the Lord:

Christ inherited a whole lot more then promises or that land! He is king of kings and lord of lords! He inherited the throne of David and is already on it!

Agreed we are only discussing what was revealed to David, but all that constituted promises. So adding details in one thing, taking detail away is very different.

6:13 For when God made promise to Abraham, because he could swear by no greater, he sware by himself,

Heb 6:16 an oath for confirmation is to them an end of all strife.
Heb 6:17 Wherein God, willing more abundantly to shew unto the heirs of promise the immutability of his counsel, confirmed it by an oath:
Heb 6:18 That by two immutable things, in which it was impossible for God to lie, we might have a strong consolation, who have fled for refuge to lay hold upon the hope set before us:
Heb 6:19 Which hope we have as an anchor of the soul, both sure and stedfast, and which entereth into that within the veil;
Heb 6:20 Whither the forerunner is for us entered, even Jesus, made an high priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec.

So I think the promises to Abraham should stand in their entirety. But it may be objected that the throne promise is not to Abraham but to David. No problem, there is another oath:

Psa 110:4 The LORD hath sworn, and will not repent, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchizedek.

And Melchizedek was…

Heb_7:1 For this Melchisedec, king of Salem, priest of the most high God, who met Abraham returning from the slaughter of the kings, and blessed him;
Heb_7:2 To whom also Abraham gave a tenth part of all; first being by interpretation King of righteousness, and after that also King of Salem, which is, King of peace;

And Salem was of course - Jerusalem.

So the promises to David are confirmed with an oath and are just as sure as the promises to Abraham.


So you ask me what I think about the new Jerusalem. I think it’s very symbolic, but what is absolutely clear is that it isn’t going to be stopping in heaven (Rev 21:2).
It seems to me it’s going to be established on the earth in accordance with what I understand from the promises made to Abraham and David.

So do you think there is a future application that fulfils the promises to Abraham and David literally with Christ reigning from Jerusalem?