Determining the will of YHVH

[Asforme&myhouse]

@steve, something to add, by suggesting that hearing God in your head is necessary to be called one of His sheep and that is something you have to work and strive to accomplish, isn’t that claiming some of the boasting rights for your salvation? (I’m asking this seriously, not sarcastically)

Jesus warned those who were listening to Him to beware of false prophets and then goes on to say this:

[21] “Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. [22] Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? [23] And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.”
Matthew 7:21-23 KJV


What is the will of the Father? Is it not to believe in the Christ, the only begotten Son?
[22] And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight. [23] And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment. [24] And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us. 1 John 3:22-24 KJV

Hearing God’s voice in your head is not necessary for salvation, hearing the Gospel and believing on the name of Jesus, is.

 

[Asforme&myhouse]

@Asforme&myhouse, we all can have our differences of opinion but at the end of the day, we can say that we are part of Biblical Families and we consider each other family. I humbly apologize to you for my overreaction in my comments to you and sincerely ask for your forgiveness.

@FairyLass of course I forgive you! I’m sorry that my comment seemed to be a personal attack on you. I wasn’t responding to your post but rather i had a particular, famous, Joel Osteen sermon on my mind when I was writing my comment. I really do care about the people here at Biblical Families, which is why I’m willing to say things that get me doggy piled, sometimes, if it’s something that I see is biblically important for us to get right. Blessings to you and your family and i pray that you all will continue to grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ

 

[steve]

isn’t that claiming some of the boasting rights for your salvation? (I’m asking this seriously, not sarcastically)

No

Jesus warned those who were listening to Him to beware of false prophets

No one is prophesying here.
But he also warned against false teachers.

 

[Rose of Sharon]

@FairyLass of course I forgive you! I’m sorry that my comment seemed to be a personal attack on you. I wasn’t responding to your post but rather i had a particular, famous, Joel Osteen sermon on my mind when I was writing my comment. I really do care about the people here at Biblical Families, which is why I’m willing to say things that get me doggy piled, sometimes, if it’s something that I see is biblically important for us to get right. Blessings to you and your family and i pray that you all will continue to grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ

Thank you! I now have peace. And blessings to you and yours as well. And I pray the same for you. May you have a wonderful day.

 

[yoderfamily]

@yoderfamily, how am I putting people on a pedestal? Quite the opposite, I’m pointing out that God can speak infallibly through fallible people.
The true prophet who believed the false prophet should be exhibit A for how easy it is to be fooled by people who are prophesying falsely and why we should take this very seriously.
You keep using verses that speak of worshiping God in spirit, and then I assume that to you that means achieving some form of mystical or ecstatic state? I think you’re reading that with a bias and putting something into the text that isn’t there.

I grew up in a culture where the forefathers were placed on a pedestal and revered as perfect examples with supernatural gifts only available at that time. It appears to me like you are trying to say. " it's not written in the Bible therefore it didn't happen.".
I disagree with that approach.

Yes God can speak infallibly thru fallible people.

He can also speak infallibly TO a fallible person who in turn can misquote, misinterprete. Understanding fallibleness in myself has given me grace for those who get something wrong. I do realize there is an arrogance manifested when people throw around the term, "God told me this" then proceed to throw out a vague generality. I would teach against that. Also believe people can repent of false prophecy and that the Father could use them again. Also as in the case of Jonah He prophesied what he had heard and understood but God repented and Jonah's prophecy was false.

The reason I keep posting verses about the spirit is to point out the spiritual dimension that entered after the ascension of Christ. It's very pertinent to salvation, to hearing the voice of the Father, to knowledge of truth, to worship the Father.
Spirit speaks to spirit. That is in your head. Those are the verses proving to you that we are expected to hear voices in our head. Why we are expected to know HIS voice. The one who came to kill, steal and destroy is a spirit also and has the ability to talk to your mind if you allow him in.

To me the term mystical does not jive with a Holy Spirit experience. People who continually run after mystical and ecstatic experiences are usually the same ones who float about with every wind of doctrine.
So I would consider it very important to be open to the voice of the Holy Spirit. Too discern with great care rather than closing all doors. And if you don't understand the message hold it in your heart like Mary did until such a time as it will be revealed to you as pertinent or false.
That's my experience and thots.

 

[Asforme&myhouse]

No

No one is prophesying here.
But he also warned against false teachers.

Telling people what God said to you inside your head Isn’t prophesying?

Yes He did warn about false teachers, and the ones standing in front of Him held tightly to their extra biblical revelation. Jude also warned us about false teachers and that one of the marks of false teachers is that they rely on their dreams... his words not mine.

I’m not attacking anyone here, but I am saying we need to be very careful about what we attribute to God, like VERY CAREFUL.

 

[steve]

Telling people what God said to you inside your head Isn’t prophesying?

No
It’s called testifying.

 

[steve]

Jude also warned us about false teachers and that one of the marks of false teachers is that they rely on their dreams... his words not mine.

Surely you don’t see dreams as being the only mark of a false teacher.
False teachers teach that which is false, which one or both of us has to be doing. He that hath an ear , let him hear.

 

[steve]

I’m not attacking anyone here, but I am saying we need to be very careful about what we attribute to God, like VERY CAREFUL.

Totally agreed that we need to very careful.
We are both attacking what we perceive as false doctrine.

 

[Asforme&myhouse]

No
It’s called testifying.

That’s a distinction without a difference

Surely you don’t see dreams as being the only mark of a false teacher.
False teachers teach that which is false, which one or both of us has to be doing. He that hath an ear , let him hear.

I’m picking up what you’re saying loud and clear. You’re calling me a false teacher.


False teachers teach that which is not in accord with sound doctrine. In order for something to be sound doctrine it has it has to be taught in Scripture. Can you give me clear biblical texts which instruct christians to strive to hear God with their inside their head voice?

If you’re going to hold this forth as a salvation issue, as in, if you don’t hear God’s voice in your head you’re not saved, then you better have biblical texts that rock solidly, clearly, and explicitly teach this. If you don’t, then you might be teaching a non-biblical doctrine.

 

[steve]

I’m picking up what you’re saying loud and clear. You’re calling me a false teacher.

Either we are both wrong, and teaching what is false, or only one of us is.
The judge is way above our pay grade.

But the reader must decide which of these “truths” they will live by.

 

[Verifyveritas76]

@Verifyveritas76, both Pharaoh and Nebuchadnezzar were unregenerate pagans and God spoke to them cryptically.

Cryptically or not, it was either inaudible or in their head . . . . To unregenerate pagans. Disproving your hypothesis on an order of magnitudes! The only thing they heard audibly was from Joseph and Daniel. Nothing is mentioned that Joseph heard something audible and yet he said his interpretation was from God. Daniel records that God revealed it to him in a night vision though there were three others praying also who didn’t receive it.

Trying to deflect by saying that it was a cryptic inaudible word/dream from God still does nothing to refute that it was a dream/vision/voice in their head.

 

[rockfox]

Jesus spoke to unbelievers in parables/cryptically so they wouldn’t understand what He was talking about

Jesus had to explain the parables to His own disciples, even to Peter. Look at tongues, that is another miraculous gift in which the person given the message doesn't necessarily know the meaning. Same can be true for dreams.

Look at Acts 10, God gave Peter a vision in prayer and Peter didn't understand what it meant. He wouldn't until the time came that he needed the message. And this was on no small point either; this had huge ramifications for theology and the church.

@rockfox, the situation of Samuel should really make this a no brainer. God apparently speaks in an audible voice, and if He speaks to a five year old who heard Him (audibly) someone might have to tell the five year old to say “here i am”. That doesn’t seem to jive with whole teaching seminars in the church on how to hear God’s voice.

You're dodging the point. You said, "zero questions about whether or not it was God speaking". Obviously that cannot be true if Samuel thought it was someone else speaking.

And just because God speaks sometimes audibly, doesn't mean he doesn't do so inaudibly. We're talking about a God who can hear our thoughts. Acts 10:19 is one such case. Any vision (waking dream) would be another case.

What's the difference really? Both get processed in the head, it's just one goes through the ear first. Don't think that just because it comes through the ear it's some protection from following errant thoughts. Certain people are quite capable of hallucinating speech.

God's Spirit is in us, I see no reason He cannot communicate directly spirit to spirit, mind to mind.

 

[Asforme&myhouse]

Cryptically or not, it was either inaudible or in their head . . . . To unregenerate pagans. Disproving your hypothesis on an order of magnitudes! The only thing they heard audibly was from Joseph and Daniel. Nothing is mentioned that Joseph heard something audible and yet he said his interpretation was from God. Daniel records that God revealed it to him in a night vision though there were three others praying also who didn’t receive it.
Trying to deflect by saying that it was a cryptic inaudible word/dream from God still does nothing to refute that it was a dream/vision/voice in their head.

My hypothesis is not that God cannot speak using whatever manner He wishes, but rather when He speaks its not some fleeting echo in the ether, it is clear and concise.

Jesus had to explain the parables to His own disciples, even to Peter.

He did clarify to them though didn’t He?

Look at tongues, that is another miraculous gift in which the person given the message doesn't necessarily know the meaning. Same can be true for dreams.

Tongues is a gift whereby The Holy Spirit speaks audibly through someone, and it is true that the person speaking doesn’t understand what’s being said, but even in the case of someone who has the gift of tongues, which is a sign to unbelievers, must remain silent unless someone interprets. The particular unbeliever (or congregation with an interpreter) whom God is speaking to, hears it in their own language.

Look at Acts 10, God gave Peter a vision in prayer and Peter didn't understand what it meant. He wouldn't until the time came that he needed the message. And this was on no small point either; this had huge ramifications for theology and the church.

He didn’t understand the over all meaning immediately but he understood the words spoken, it was not some nebulous grasping of some fleeting thing where he thought “God might be saying this or that”

You're dodging the point. You said, "zero questions about whether or not it was God speaking". Obviously that cannot be true if Samuel thought it was someone else speaking.

We’re talking about a situation where God was speaking audibly here, and you’re wanting to compare this to someone standing up saying something like “I feel like maybe God is saying such and such”? You’re hanging up on a little bit of hyperbole, in defense of people speaking presumptuously for God?

And just because God speaks sometimes audibly, doesn't mean he doesn't do so inaudibly. We're talking about a God who can hear our thoughts. Acts 10:19 is one such case. Any vision (waking dream) would be another case.

What's the difference really? Both get processed in the head, it's just one goes through the ear first. Don't think that just because it comes through the ear it's some protection from following errant thoughts. Certain people are quite capable of hallucinating speech.

God's Spirit is in us, I see no reason He cannot communicate directly spirit to spirit, mind to mind.

Am I arguing that God cannot speak however He wants? No, I’m arguing that if He does speak it will be clear and it will hold up to scrutiny AND I’m arguing that hearing an inside your head God voice isn’t necessary for salvation (which is apparently a thing now)

 

[Verifyveritas76]

AND I’m arguing that hearing an inside your head God voice isn’t necessary for salvation (which is apparently a thing now)

@Asforme&myhouse I had a feeling that this ^^^ was the root of the conversation we’ve been having. I would agree with you wholeheartedly on this issue, though I question the effectiveness of your approach to it.

I’d also encourage you to step back and examine your approach to combatting this particular issue. I could be wrong in understanding your approach, but it reminds me of the same “fundamentalist” style approach to disproving speaking in tongues as well as the filling of the Holy Spirit etc. For example, tongues/filling of the Holy Spirit is not a thing anymore because . . . . .(fill in the blank with human reasoning about scripture) . . . Instead of admitting its actually a scriptural thing, it just doesn’t look like that (whatever is going on that is obviously not lined up with scriptural examples) and we know the instances are false because of examples x,y, and z as well as historical evidences etc.

Love your passion and willingness to stand, I just think that the rest of the conversation actually muddied the water if this was the focus of your disagreement with people hearing the voice of God inaudibly.

 

[Asforme&myhouse]

@Asforme&myhouse I had a feeling that this ^^^ was the root of the conversation we’ve been having. I would agree with you wholeheartedly on this issue, though I question the effectiveness of your approach to it.

I’d also encourage you to step back and examine your approach to combatting this particular issue. I could be wrong in understanding your approach, but it reminds me of the same “fundamentalist” style approach to disproving speaking in tongues as well as the filling of the Holy Spirit etc. For example, tongues/filling of the Holy Spirit is not a thing anymore because . . . . .(fill in the blank with human reasoning about scripture) . . . Instead of admitting its actually a scriptural thing, it just doesn’t look like that (whatever is going on that is obviously not lined up with scriptural examples) and we know the instances are false because of examples x,y, and z as well as historical evidences etc.

Love your passion and willingness to stand, I just think that the rest of the conversation actually muddied the water if this was the focus of your disagreement with people hearing the voice of God inaudibly.

Point taken.

 

[MiloCroton RN BSN B.S.]

I'm not going to say God can't communicate in some crazy ways, but scripture does focus quite a bit on how the heart is deceitful and the need for renewing the mind. Instead of being led by a bit and bridle, as sanctification progresses our choices should start aligning more with the spirit. Renewing the mind is hard work, but thankfully we have help. We must also not forget God's providence and sovereignty. It's not as though God's plan will be all messed up because you chose this or that. If you really think that, you think too much of yourself.

I remember this book being pretty good:

https://www.amazon.com/Decision-Mak...52/?tag=bingshoppinga-20&linkCode=df0&hvadid={creative}&hvpos={adposition}&hvnetw=o&hvrand={random}&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=e&hvdev=t&hvdvcmdl={devicemodel}&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=&hvtargid=pla-4583795260790059&psc=1

 

[steve]

It's not as though God's plan will be all messed up because you chose this or that. If you really think that, you think too much of yourself.

I disagree.
What you are saying is that we don’t matter in Yah’s plan. That we can do whatever we feel like and the course of history will not change.
Take Israel, for example. Yah told Moses to lead them to the land that He had promised them. But they messed up and Moses messed up and their children had to wait 40 years while their parents died before they could go in.

Will it change your future if you do something that gives you an STD? Was that Yah’s will for your future?

Why bother to witness to anyone if His plan for their life will be carried out whether we do or not?

 

[steve]

Renewing the mind is hard work, but thankfully we have help.

Very true.

 

[steve]