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Determining the will of YHVH

Matthew 1:20 'But when he had considered this, behold, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream saying..... '
v. 24... 'And Joseph woke from his sleep...'

Matthew 2:19 'But when Herod died, behold, and angel of the Lord appeared in a dream to Joseph in Egypt, and said,....'

Apparently, dreams are the way Yah spoke to Joseph the husband of Miriam. And, in both cases they were related to the destiny of the family in general and Yeshua specifically. We are not given any details of him 'testing the dream.' Now, he may have, but at least in the first case, whatever he saw in his dream moved him to immediately get up, saddle the donkey and head out.

So, yes, one of many ways that Yah can direct our path is through dreams.
 
PeteR said:
Matthew 1:20 'But when he had considered this, behold, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream saying..... '
v. 24... 'And Joseph woke from his sleep...'

Matthew 2:19 'But when Herod died, behold, and angel of the Lord appeared in a dream to Joseph in Egypt, and said,....'

Apparently, dreams are the way Yah spoke to Joseph the husband of Miriam. And, in both cases they were related to the destiny of the family in general and Yeshua specifically. We are not given any details of him 'testing the dream.' Now, he may have, but at least in the first case, whatever he saw in his dream moved him to immediately get up, saddle the donkey and head out.

So, yes, one of many ways that Yah can direct our path is through dreams.
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God spoke to me out of a burning bush the other day, and don’t you dare question that.
 
Why the snarky, @Asforme&myhouse ?

Did you not say....
Asforme&myhouse said:
We are told to test the spirits. How exactly does one test the spirits unless one compares the claimed experience to Scripture? Read what Jude says about people who rely on their dreams.
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PeteR said:
Why the snarky, @Asforme&myhouse ?

Did you not say....
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So far this morning I’ve been accused, miss-construed, and impugned. I got a bit snarky. I apologize for being snarky to you @PeteR.

I’m not going to continue engaging on this thread as it’s already way off topic. The one thing I will ask, that I hope everyone will consider is this: is pointing to scripture and saying God did that with those people so God will do it with us, a true test? If some person says it happened to them it must be true? Anyone can say “God spoke to me in such and such a way”. How is that any kind if definitive test? The real test would be, does what was supposedly said by God stand up to clear biblical doctrine. If it does not, it is not from God and it needs to be pointed out.
 
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@Asforme&myhouse I think the problem is that you're getting two things mixed up. You're saying God doesn't speak to people in dreams, because we can't test that against the bible. But what you really mean is that we shouldn't trust our dreams, and if we do have one from God then what He says will be able to be backed up by scripture, right? So, because our dreams could be wrong, we're best not to trust them at all. Does that sound correct?
The thing is, that no one is saying that you should just trust your dreams, or should you follow what they say if they're against scripture. God will never tell you to do something that is a sin or is against scripture, so if that's what you're hearing then it's not Him.
Does God speak to people in dreams? Yes, He does. He does to me frequently. And it's not about biblical stuff, because it's about future events, ones that aren't specifically written in the bible, and ones that I would never for the life have me have even thought of.
I also hear His voice in my head, and get visions from Him. Yes, that's real too. I also hear Satan's voice in my head, and have learned to recognise the difference over time. That's called discernment.
And that's the key to knowing God's will, as per the OP - discernment. That's what everyone should be praying for and actively learning. I see too many Christians without it, and not willing to even think that they need it.
 
Asforme&myhouse said:
So far this morning I’ve been accused, miss-construed, and impugned. I got a bit snarky. I apologize for being snarky to you @PeteR.

I’m not going to continue engaging on this thread as it’s already way off topic. The one thing I will ask, that I hope everyone will consider is this, is pointing to scripture and saying God did that with those people so God will do it with us and if some person says it happened to them it must be true? Anyone can say “God spoke to me in such and such a way”. The test is, does what was supposedly said by God stand up to clear biblical doctrine. If it does not, it is not from God and it needs to be pointed out.
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If you're looking for a pattern in the Bible? The clearest pattern is that the Father can't be put in a box. To some He walked and talked with them(Adam and Eve and Abraham). Others he spoke to out of clouds and burning bush(Moses and children of Israel). Some He spoke to in a still small voice(Elijah). Samuel was called in a voice only he heard which caused Eli to counsel him to inquire whether it was God. The prophets prophesied that in the end times young men would see visions and old men would dream dreams. The same prophecy was brought up in acts as being in the process of being fulfilled as proof that the end times had begun. So beings we still are in the end times that means that prophecy is still active and still being fulfilled.
So again I submit that the clearest pattern is that the Father can't be contained in a book.;)

The thing with it measuring up to biblical doctrine is valid. However we see thru a glass darkly. When Mary the mother of Jesus heard things from him that must have seemed far out and wacky she didn't just throw them away but hid them in her heart until such a time that she would receive understanding.
It is my belief that the Father still communicates with us in all the ways previously discussed. But due to the fallibility and arrogance of humans the message is often misinterpreted, added too too fit our logic, or simply stolen to fit an agenda.
So unless the message goes completely against facts I am hesitant to completely discount it.
 
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FollowingHim2 said:
@Asforme&myhouse I think the problem is that you're getting two things mixed up. You're saying God doesn't speak to people in dreams, because we can't test that against the bible. But what you really mean is that we shouldn't trust our dreams, and if we do have one from God then what He says will be able to be backed up by scripture, right? So, because our dreams could be wrong, we're best not to trust them at all. Does that sound correct?
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I don’t know how many times I have reiterated that I believe God is fully capable of speaking to us in any way He sees fit, probably over a dozen times at this point. However, it doesn’t seem to register in people’s minds for some reason. I’m not speaking of you specifically, @FollowingHim2, I don’t know how many of my other posts you have read on this subject.

Ok, several things here, people who actually heard God, in Scripture, had zero questions about whether or not it was God speaking.

Second, there was no confusion about what was said, the clarity and precision were remarkable.

Third, it appears from Scripture that there is zero practice or exercising of some special spiritual hearing ability required to hear God when God speaks. If the Bible teaches the practice of practicing to hear God’s voice, please show me.

Fourth, several instances of God speaking through dreams in the New Testament have been brought up in this discussion. In any of those cases, did the person who had the dream or vision not know exactly, specifically, and clearly what was said, without an interpreter?

Fifth, when did the test for determining whether or not someone is a false prophet change from the Old Testament to the New Testament?

Sixth, why do we encourage people who “think” they heard something that “might” be from God, to share it? That is so incredibly presumptuous and dangerous! :eek:

Can we agree that God gave us a couple of tests to determine if someone is a false prophet and that we should use those tests?

Can we agree that this is an incredibly serious topic and that God instituted the death penalty for people who prophesy falsely? It’s an incredibly egregious sin to put words in God’s mouth, and while I believe in God’s grace on someone who has done so in ignorance, we shouldn’t be accepting prophesies from anyone who has previously prophesied falsely. If you get it wrong one time, we know that you are a false prophet and We are told not to listen to you.

Can we agree that unless someone knows 10000000% that what they heard is the actual voice of God they should remain silent about it?

If you are offended and not convicted by what I’m saying here, that raises some serious red flags to me.

To everyone here, if you have ever claimed to hear God’s voice and you weren’t 100000000% sure it was God speaking, you need to repent because you have spoken presumptuously.
 
Asforme&myhouse said:
Sixth, why do we encourage people who “think” they heard something that “might” be from God, to share it?
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I don't know if I "encourage" people to tell me their dreams or what they think they've heard from God but when they do I try to keep a true nuetral. The whole chapter of 1 Cor 13 tells us so much about how we need to act towards those that we love, and 1 Cor 13:7 "bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things." Is what I use when others tell me about their supernatural experiences. I find it hard to love them if I am judging them. And even if they are my enemy, I am suppose to love them so I would rather err on the side of love then the side of judgement. I'm not confident in my being able to discern their experiences as of God or not, so therefore I choose to love them and hope and believe especially if nothing jumps out to be blatantly against the Bible. And if we think of hearing from God as a wife (the church) hearing from her husband (God) I would never in real life tell anyone they didn't hear from their husband correctly or that they misunderstood their husband! How foolish would it be for me to presume I understood their relationship so much better afar then they knew it and that I had the right to tell them what their husband said and intended. I understand, it's dangerous. The path is narrow and there are wolves in sheep's clothing tempting us all to leave the path, but at a point I have to let go and walk my own path trusting that He is leading those around me as He is leading myself.

Edit - Oops I forgot, I think people need to be given an opportunity to share what they've heard because how else would they find an interpreter if they can't bring up that they may need one.
 
Verifyveritas76 said:
I’d say that Pharaoh is a perfect example of one who had a prophetic dream and needed the services of a prophetic interpreter, Joseph.

Nebuchadnezzar another

I’d also say that young Joseph was one who shared prophetic dreams and was ridiculed for them because they didn’t agree with the majority bias.
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Shoot, the religious leaders of Yeshua’s day were stating that he was casting out demons by the power of Beelzebub.
And Saul/Paul was not believed at first when he reported what had happened to him.

@Asforme&myhouse, we are just as adamant that untrue theology not be taught here as you are. But we are going to have to agree to disagree on some of these points because we don’t see the exact same things in what we read in Scripture.
Can you do that, or must you fight to the bitter end to protect us from what you believe is wrong?

And Btw, this is not at all off topic. Finding/hearing the will of Yah is exactly the topic.
 
Asforme&myhouse said:
Ok, several things here, people who actually heard God, in Scripture, had zero questions about whether or not it was God speaking.
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I would submit this is an assertion you can't back up. Why would we put other fallible people on a pedestal? They were tempted same as we are. Therefore I believe they had questions same as us.
I have to think of Esther. Scripture says if she hadn't risen to the occasion God would have raised up someone else to take her place. Showing that free will was pertinent in that time period.
I would submit there were varying degrees of confidence. Like Moses, Gideon, Jonah, the prophet who had been told to go straight to his destination than straight back home believed a false prophet over what he had been told. There could have been many fleeces put out over time like Gideon did.
 
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yoderfamily said:
I have to think of Esther. Scripture says if she hadn't risen to the occasion God would have raised up someone else to take her place. Showing that free will was pertinent in that time period.
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I'm not meaning to jump into the discussion one way or the other, but I wanted to add a side note: something interesting is that the word "God" does not appear even once in the book of Esther. Just a bit info I thought I'd throw in.:)
 
Asforme&myhouse said:
Third, it appears from Scripture that there is zero practice or exercising of some special spiritual hearing ability required to hear God when God speaks. If the Bible teaches the practice of practicing to hear God’s voice, please show me.
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26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit



But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.

24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

It seems to me like a whole new form of communication opened up with the sending of the Holy Spirit,/Comforter.

How long would it take you to switch over from walking and talking to a physical form to communicating with a Spirit. I am sure a lot of that history wasn't deemed pertinent.
 
Frank S said:
I'm not meaning to jump into the discussion one way or the other, but I wanted to add a side note: something interesting is that the word "God" does not appear even once in the book of Esther. Just a bit info I thought I'd throw in.:)
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13 Then Mordecai commanded to answer Esther, Think not with thyself that thou shalt escape in the king's house, more than all the Jews.

14 For if thou altogether holdest thy peace at this time, then shall there enlargement and deliverance arise to the Jews from another place; but thou and thy father's house shall be destroyed: and who knoweth whether thou art come to the kingdom for such a time as this?

Yet how did Mordecai know? :rolleyes::cool:
 
yoderfamily said:
Yet how did Mordecai know? :rolleyes:
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Yes, I think we can make a pretty good guess how he knew, it's just interesting God isn't mentioned. At one time I was quite amazed to find out there is a book in the Bible that doesn't contain the word "God" or even "Lord". In this case we are left filling in the blanks which is something I believe we have to be careful about doing. Many people do fill in a lot of what they see as blanks which I pause at in light of Proverbs 30:6. I'm not meaning to be combative :)
 
In John 10, the first point is that Yeshua has a voice.
The second is that we are presumed to know it if we are his sheep. That second one is a bit concerning to me in that I don’t hear it as well or as often as I would like. And when I do I am pretty skeptical.
You won’t find me going around saying that he has told me this or that. He very rarely tells me anything about anyone outside of my own family. That’s just the way that he rolls with me, but I appreciate every speck of input that he has for my life.
It’s quite possible that I would hear more often and more clearly if I were more open. If so, I look forward to further growth.
 
@RainyLondonFog in your opinion, is calling someone to repent, unloving and judgmental?

@Verifyveritas76, both Pharaoh and Nebuchadnezzar were unregenerate pagans and God spoke to them cryptically. Something to think about is that Jesus spoke to unbelievers in parables/cryptically so they wouldn’t understand what He was talking about. Maybe if God is speaking to you cryptically, you should be concerned. Just a thought.
I don’t think Joseph asked for an interpretation of his dream, did he? He, his parents, and brothers all seemed to know what it meant and his parents and brothers were put off by it.


@steve, a note on the Pharisees, they believed in extra biblical revelation and Jesus pointed them back to the Scriptures.
As far as contending on this topic, lay out a clear biblical command from Scripture that i am supposed to try to hear God’s voice in my head and I’ll stop arguing with you. Either that or you’re going to have to gather enough signatures to vote me off the island. You’re stuck with me until you accomplish one of those things.

@yoderfamily, how am I putting people on a pedestal? Quite the opposite, I’m pointing out that God can speak infallibly through fallible people.
The true prophet who believed the false prophet should be exhibit A for how easy it is to be fooled by people who are prophesying falsely and why we should take this very seriously.
You keep using verses that speak of worshiping God in spirit, and then I assume that to you that means achieving some form of mystical or ecstatic state? I think you’re reading that with a bias and putting something into the text that isn’t there.
Concerning Esther and Mordecai, that is a huge assumption.
Moses and Jonah knew it was God speaking and didn’t want to go, and Gideon knew it was God but didn’t take Him at His word.


@rockfox, the situation of Samuel should really make this a no brainer. God apparently speaks in an audible voice, and if He speaks to a five year old who heard Him (audibly) someone might have to tell the five year old to say “here i am”. That doesn’t seem to jive with whole teaching seminars in the church on how to hear God’s voice.


@steve, when Jesus said that He was literally speaking in audible syllables. At another point, He told His disciples that the Comforter would help the disciples remember what He had said. These were things that He literally, audibly, articulated to them which He told them where the very words of the Father and then He prayed for those of us who would hear the words of the Father through the disciples.... why would Jesus pray that if He was planning on speaking directly to every one of His sheep in their head voice??
The pharisees didn’t understand Jesus’ literal words (they didn’t know His voice), they did, however, believe in extra biblical revelation. And this is what concerns me, we chase after spiritual experiences and ignore the plain reading of Jesus’ actual words.
 
Asforme&myhouse said:
we chase after spiritual experiences and ignore the plain reading of Jesus’ actual words.
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You may call it chasing, I call it seeking Him. Hopefully with my whole heart.

Every road has two ditches.
For this road, one ditch is actually chasing spiritual experiences. And I agree with you that it is not right.
The other ditch is denying spiritual experiences.
I may stagger a lot trying to stay in the vicinity of the center (it is a one-way street) but I pretty much stay out of the ditches.
 
@Asforme&myhouse, we all can have our differences of opinion but at the end of the day, we can say that we are part of Biblical Families and we consider each other family. I humbly apologize to you for my overreaction in my comments to you and sincerely ask for your forgiveness.
 
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