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Curious about average IQ around here

That post of mine was a joke. Actually, the U.S. Supreme Court decision to which it refers was and remains a complete joke.

If anyone is truly interested in the subject of IQ, s/he shouldn't pass up the opportunity to read The Bell Curve before the progressives fully outlaw it.

Some psychometric tests have been so thoroughly empirically studied that it's folly to question their legitimacy.

What I would find very intriguing would be to see what kind of results people get on the Rorschach Test. I'll even bring my set of cards to conduct it at a gathering if enough people were interested.
While not opposed to IQ tests, I do firmly believe in the concept of multiple intelligences. If that makes me a flaming lib/prog, that's ok.

I have absolutely no sourcing other that memory of a citation somewhere that states that more years of formal education results in increases of IQ over time. Is it possible that it's because of IQ tests being devised by those with more advanced formal education?

Just something I think about.
 
Taking that test online is probably comparable to taking a 10-question online survey about likes and dislikes and then choosing one's lifetime career based on the results.
Thankyou. That's why I asked.

Is it possible to administer the test over a video call rather than in person?

You know what my next question would be if the answer is yes!
 
more years of formal education results in increases of IQ over time
I think it is entirely reasonable to assume that intelligence can be grown, not just inherited. Your brain is part of your body, you can improve your muscle fitness, and surely improve your brain's fitness also.
I do firmly believe in the concept of multiple intelligences
I'd be interested in you elaborating on what you mean by this a bit more. It makes sense that there would be people more intelligent in one area of thought, and others more intelligent in another. If there is any way of actually quantifying this that would be interesting.
 
While not opposed to IQ tests, I do firmly believe in the concept of multiple intelligences. If that makes me a flaming lib/prog, that's ok.

It doesn't make you a flaming anything. It just means you are unwittingly a victim of a hoax that may or may not be intended to be a hoax.

In other realms, we all tend to agree that words mean things, and what follows from that is that we should do our best to use the same words to mean the same thing.

As a general principle, the concept of multiple intelligences is very reasonable; the problem occurs, though, when one begins to describe capabilities in one realm of intelligence using the language of an entirely different realm of intelligence.

For example, one of the newer alternative realms of intelligence is referred to as EQ, rather than IQ or EIQ. It stands for Emotional Quotient, and it is variously intended to, depending on who is doing the promotion, (a) accurately assess an individual's ability to negotiate the emotional states of hirself or others, or (b) prove that having a high score on an EQ is the equivalent of having a similarly high score on a standardized IQ test, and in the case of this latter end of the spectrum if one believes that then one is decidedly a flaming prog, because what's right behind such propaganda is the effort to prove that women and men are equivalent beings and/or that it just doesn't matter how one scores on tests, because they're all biased toward skills that don't really matter. All versions of critical theory espouse this philosophy. But this is unreal and dispositive on its face, because if they really believed that deep down, these people wouldn't have gone to the trouble of taking Duke Power to the Supreme Court in the first place. The reason why so many employers used traditional IQ tests as employment/hiring filters was that they worked to determine whether individuals were suited for the positions they were seeking. If the tests were meaningless, they would have resulted in poor employment outcomes, and employers would have abandoned them. Quickly. They also wouldn't have purposefully used them to discriminate against people with equal abilities from certain races who supposedly collectively just aren't good test takers but would be just as productive of employees, because to do that would put a company at a disadvantage in comparison to the companies who didn't restrict themselves from hiring productive and brilliant bad-test-takers.

I like the EQ moniker, because it doesn't on its face water down the legitimacy of the traditional IQ tests (which, by the way, are continuously being studied and tweaked).

This is the bottom line on this subject: In psychometric testing -- and this matters because this is the field that first formally defined the word 'intelligence' -- intelligence is very specifically defined as the ability to rapidly process information to create successful outcomes in matters both verbal and quantitative. If one wants a highly-expanded version of this, one should take the ASVABs; no battery of tests is more highly honed than them. But, for the most part, all the most respected standardized IQ tests (from the Stanford-Binet on down) are strictly timed tests (forcing test takers into a situation of rapid processing) divided into two distinct sections: verbal and quantitative (sometimes thought of as language and math). Until misguided political correctness started its stranglehold on the culture, the SAT was almost entirely an IQ test, and the results people get on the SAT track those they would get on an intelligence test. The ACT, on the other hand, is an achievement test, designed to assess how much one has learned over the course of one's primary and secondary education. The difference explains why some individuals get a really high score on one and a really low score on the other. The now-abandoned traditional SAT test was so well vetted that, no matter how much one studied, about the maximum one could improve one's score from a day when one was hung over to a fresh day after tutoring was 100 points out of 1600 (weighted to make 1000 the average score). Now one can be tutored to literally pretend to be an entirely different human being and boost one's score by as much as 300 points, which illustrates why it has become a nearly useless predictor of undergraduate success.

Anyway, intelligence is the measure of how successfully one can process new information in rapid fashion.

These other 'intelligences' assess other human capabilities, and those other capabilities are indeed valuable, important, worthy, etc., but they don't really need to be called intelligences to have legitimacy. Generally, the whole movement to create equivalences is a movement to indirectly downplay the value of merit.

I have absolutely no sourcing other that memory of a citation somewhere that states that more years of formal education results in increases of IQ over time.

Many assertions are made about many different things, but most such assertions should have more accurately been presented as an opinion. Research has never corroborated such a claim, despite the fact that those who promote Big Ed want to consider themselves the repositories of all wisdom -- and want the rest of us to keep shuffling up to the trough to pay for the supposed boosts (including IQ) that paying for their services will grant us. Real research has demonstrated that the inverse is more likely to occur over time, with or without education: a decrease in IQ. Generally speaking, though, if one's IQ is properly measured at age 8, one's IQ score at 58 will be nearly identical. It's your operating system, and you can't change it. You can download new games and apps into it, but those games and apps are still going to operate according to the speed and memory capabilities of your God-given operating system.

Be careful when reading random statements about something as critical as intelligence to make sure that the person making it either provides sources that involve real research (as opposed to Psychology Today or Dr. Phil) or encourages you to seek out that research yourself (the latter of which I'm doing here). We have all been bone smuggled by Dr. Fauci over the past year and a half due to willingness to accept so-called expert advice without considering the possibility that he is an Emperor with No Clothes or has agendas that propel him to make so-called "follow the Science" pronouncements that make him look good, put money in his pocket and advance the power agendas of his political cronies. The same can be said of the majority of mainstream anti-intelligence or alternative-intelligence 'experts.'

What they're speaking into is the listening people have of wishing that intelligence didn't really matter.

I think it is entirely reasonable to assume that intelligence can be grown, not just inherited. Your brain is part of your body, you can improve your muscle fitness, and surely improve your brain's fitness also.

And that sounds good, but the evidence is that what you can do is preserve your abilities longer. There is this canard about how human beings only use 10% of their brain. CaCa! Every bit of the brain is used by every human being other than those with significant brain damage. Our central nervous system is organized so that we are only conscious of 2 or 3 things at any given moment out of the 30,000 pieces of information being sent to us from our receptors at those same moments, on top of whatever our soul inspires us to actively think about, which cuts out one of the 2 or 3 things.

Methods are available to increase that 2 or 3 to higher numbers of simultaneous awareness, but the 2 or 3 is God-designed for our survival (to keep us from being distracted in life-threatening situations, for one reason), and only a small percentage of people would ever be capable of learning how to simultaneously consciously access any more than about 4 or 5 things at once, anyway.

People will point to such things as, hey, when I was young I could barely drive a car, but now I can drive across the country almost on auto-pilot and listen to music while talking with my wife and thinking about doing it with my secretary's mother -- or learn a language I couldn't manage back in high school -- so I must be more intelligent, right? No; you always had the same general capability, but you might have needed certain life experience before moving on in some realm, or you might have needed to become less distracted by whatever was more important to you in high school before you could apply yourself to certain things that would have been boring to a teenager.

But you're not going to become more intelligent. If that were so, you would have ended up having professors with Down Syndrome, for example.

I have absolutely no sourcing other that memory of a citation somewhere that states that more years of formal education results in increases of IQ over time. Is it possible that it's because of IQ tests being devised by those with more advanced formal education?

Just something I think about.

Indeed, and, in a way, I wish it were so, but, in the realm of productivity, actual empirical research has indicated that the farther one advances on the formal-education academic path, the less productive one is on average. If you want to be horrified, randomly download about 10 recent doctoral dissertations, and you'll discover what I'm talking about. I used to do documentation production for people in school, all the way from undergraduate to post-doctoral. Most of the dissertational work I edited was little more than evidence that the person had just stayed in school so long out of paralysis or an inability to go out and do anything else.
 
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Brain aerobics. More CaCa. Behind most of these wishful-thinking self-improvement books is an over-achiever mediocre mind with enough savvy to sell snake oil in the form of being a self-help author.
 
The Rorschach Test, unlike an IQ test, is a subjective test and is decidedly not intended to be a multiple-choice test. What they've done here is give you choices among the most common answers, but a large minority of people doesn't choose from among those most common answers.
80% of the blots didn't have answers that reflected what my first perceptions of the blots were.
 
80% of the blots didn't have answers that reflected what my first perceptions of the blots were.
And you are thus a much more dynamic, complicated and interesting person than the designers of that multiple-choice test want you to be. One of the problems with subjective-test interpretation is that the interpreters are often incapable of checking their biases at the door. An aspect of interpreting the Rorschach is something labeled 'original responses,' which is when a person looks at an ink blot and asserts with definitiveness, well it's obviously blah blah blah, but no one else (at least in the published literature) has ever seen what they see. Many testers will lean toward interpreting the response as either denial or representative of some serious mental illness. I had this experience when I first viewed the 10 blots. What I saw with one of the blots wasn't among the hundreds of known responses my professor had on his list, but instead of labeling it as an original response, he declared to the class afterward, with all sincerity, that this kind of response was evidence of latent paranoid schizophrenia. I thought he was an hilarious buffoon (all part of a much longer story), so I just laughed.

Immediately after we all took the test, he gave us materials to learn how to administer the test itself. Right there in print in the book he recommended was the definition of whether or not something could be considered 'original' versus 'indicative of psychosis:' if one can show a group of people the blot and then make the suggestion of what the person came up with -- and a large portion of those given the suggestion declare that they can see that even though they wouldn't have come up with it on their own, then it meets the textbook definition of 'original.' When the professor had originally declared me to be psychotic for my response while showing the class the slide in the aftermath of our finishing our individual testing, almost the entire class spontaneously exclaimed that, yeah, hey, I can definitely see that. Lots of wows.

One of the largest deficits of the technological application of social 'sciences' is that our culture has within it a strong bias toward seeing things negatively. This, in combination with the fact that the Psychology Field itself operates on the allopathic medical model and is organized to make its biggest money when people have problems instead of when they're healthy, results in Big Psych and Big Soc being rewarded for labeling people with mental health problem diagnoses.

Anyway, @Gary Slaughenhaupt, I can't imagine that any more than 75% of people would first see what is listed as any of those top 10 responses. The bias thus is toward conformity. In the end, it's just another example of the lust to receive approval from the world that Paul so eloquently warned us about.
 
I'd be interested in you elaborating on what you mean by this a bit more. It makes sense that there would be people more intelligent in one area of thought, and others more intelligent in another. If there is any way of actually quantifying this that would be interesting.

I'm not a theorist, or a clinician. I just read.

Essentially, the concept of multiple intelligences posits that not all intelligence can be quantified using a paper and pencil test under duress.

I can't remember all the areas that theorists have proposed, but I do remember musical and kinesthetic intelligences being a part of the varying innate intelligences.

Completely illiterate and unschooled people can show musical giftedness. We hear the stories of people who pick up instruments they've never seen or used and can play nearly instantly, while most other high IQ people need to take lengthy lessons. They can't explain how they know, they just do.

The stories of ignorant jocks who can barely pass high school, yet understand the correct velocity of a curveball, or the exact angle to make a bank shot off the backboard or how to bend the football at just the right angle to score a goal, having never been trained much. It's not the raw physical gifts of strength or speed, it's the "intangibles" of sport.


@Keith Martin mentioned the military and the ASVAB. I actually think it's an "IQ" that is more reliable in my mind to help differentiate those intelligences. It helps the military to choose each recruit and assign them an MOS based on skills that come naturally to them, then training them to develop that innate skill further. I took that test in high school and scored high on polar opposite skills (mechanical/spatial and language). It was quite a many years ago, so I don't remember all the specifics.
 
Reading @Keith Martin and @Mojo's latest posts, I think there's a large aspect of disagreement over terminology rather than fact. Both (correctly) assert that people have different levels of mental attributes in different areas, and those different areas are valuable. The difference is that @Keith Martin uses the word "intelligence" as the label for one particular mental attribute, while @Mojo is using the word "intelligence" as a catch-all label for all mental attributes.

I think Keith is more correct in this, because if all mental attributes are referred to as "intelligence", then what word is left to refer to the specific attribute of "the ability to rapidly process information to create successful outcomes in matters both verbal and quantitative"? That is a specific thing, and it needs a name. That name is "intelligence".

The attribute of being able to rapidly process the velocity and angle of a ball (in sport), or a calf & your horse (when lassoing), or a prey animal & your weapon (when hunting for a meal), is an incredible and highly valuable attribute. But it is a different attribute, and you'd test for it in a different way. It doesn't need to be also labelled "intelligence" in order to be admired and valued. Rather, we would label it "skill".

The attribute of being able to simultaneously understand the needs of a bunch of children and a husband and various other relatives and pets and appreciate how best to care for all is an incredible attribute. But again, it's different, and doesn't need the same name. We'd label it "empathy" or something like that.
 
I think there's a large aspect of disagreement over terminology rather than fact.

It doesn't need to be also labelled "intelligence" in order to be admired and valued. Rather, we would label it "skill".

On the whole, I do agree that it's mostly a difference of terms, but I don't think we can just label all other attributes as simply a "skill". Perhaps that's also a loaded term, but skills can be taught to the vast majority of the population. I can teach someone how to read, write, dribble a ball, tune up a car, and play chopsticks on the piano. But, application and the finer nuances of what is taught and developing those into finer, perhaps, artistic ways goes beyond simple skill sets. For those who play sports, you know everyone on the team has the exact same set of basic skills, but not all can visualize or analyze the field or court the same way and with rapidity. The greatest coaches and masterminds of sport are often the least physically gifted on the field, but possessed the greater aptitude for applying those skills strategically.

I believe Paul alludes to my mindset when he lists off the various vocations within the church and the corporate body working as a whole, yet with individual functions.

This could potentially drag on for a long time. It's just my perspective.
Perhaps the military terminology is best for what our catch all term should be. They use the ASVAB (Armed Services Vocational APTITUDE Battery). Maybe Aptitude is the better phrase?
 
I took this one:
https://www.idrlabs.com/rorschach/test.php
Results:
Health and Well balanced:
Furthermore, your results indicate that you:
  • Have high self-esteem and self-focus, but possibly also tendencies towards narcissism.
On the whole, I do agree that it's mostly a difference of terms, but I don't think we can just label all other attributes as simply a "skill". Perhaps that's also a loaded term, but skills can be taught to the vast majority of the population. I can teach someone how to read, write, dribble a ball, tune up a car, and play chopsticks on the piano. But, application and the finer nuances of what is taught and developing those into finer, perhaps, artistic ways goes beyond simple skill sets. For those who play sports, you know everyone on the team has the exact same set of basic skills, but not all can visualize or analyze the field or court the same way and with rapidity. The greatest coaches and masterminds of sport are often the least physically gifted on the field, but possessed the greater aptitude for applying those skills strategically.

I believe Paul alludes to my mindset when he lists off the various vocations within the church and the corporate body working as a whole, yet with individual functions.

This could potentially drag on for a long time. It's just my perspective.
Perhaps the military terminology is best for what our catch all term should be. They use the ASVAB (Armed Services Vocational APTITUDE Battery). Maybe Aptitude is the better phrase?

Aptitude does seem appropriate. The use of "talented", or "gifted" also might be appropriate.
 
Ithe ASVAB. I actually think it's an "IQ" that is more reliable in my mind to help differentiate those intelligences. It helps the military to choose each recruit and assign them an MOS based on skills that come naturally to them, then training them to develop that innate skill further. I took that test in high school and scored high on polar opposite skills (mechanical/spatial and language). It was quite a many years ago, so I don't remember all the specifics.
Perhaps the military terminology is best for what our catch all term should be. They use the ASVAB (Armed Services Vocational APTITUDE Battery). Maybe Aptitude is the better phrase?

I was inartful when I wrote about the ASVAB: it is indeed an expanded IQ test with specific questions targeted for specific aptitudes, but it's known as an intelligence test; it just very purposefully avoids aligning itself in regard to creating 100-normed IQ scores.

Aptitude is actually just a word for potential for applicable intelligence.

The term y'all are searching for is Talents. These are positive, useful qualities one is born with. All talents require some degree of diligence and practice in order to make full use of them, but they are predominantly innate. Intelligence is a talent. Intuition is a talent. Perfect pitch is a talent. Allowing for wind, drag and gravity without having to think about it can also be an innate talent; it becomes a skill if it's developed, much like the person learning how to play an instrument through years of lessons.

All these and more are talents, but perfect pitch is not intelligence, and intelligence is not perfect pitch.
 
I have a story about the incredible accuracy and specificity in the ASVABs: one of my sons was heavily recruited by every branch of the military, because each branch has a specific function related to the logistics of deployment that has a title I've forgotten. Anyway, it is the only position that is never fully recruited, as the services cannot find enough suitable people to fill them, partially because those who are qualified, like my son (not the one who's now training Air Force pilots), mostly don't want to be in the military, despite being promised minimal basic training, high immediate pay, less than full-time work, all of which will be at a desk, and as close to a promise as the military can make that they will never get within 100 miles of any war zone. The criteria: there are four separate individual questions that are spread across 3 different sections of the ASVABs; to qualify, one has to get three of them correct and one of them incorrect. Get all four correct, and you don't qualify. They're looking for people with a very specific mathematical capability who are likely to be socially awkward and relatively unconcerned emotionally about hir fellow human beings (being autistic gives one a leg up in this regard). Instead, he ended up working as a TSA officer at airport security, a not-entirely dissimilar type of work.
 
It really isn't that important, but I wonder what the average IQ would be around here. I'm pretty sure it would be well above average. Pattern recognition is one of the primary advantages of higher IQ. Those of us around here have seen through the bogus arguments of the mono only crowd.

Bunch of nerds :)

I qualified for MENSA. However, I didn't have the free cash to pay club dues.
 
It is more about wisdom, honesty, pride, and drive.

Slight disagreement:
Wisdom: Yes.
Honesty: Yes.
Drive: Depends. Are u referring to sex drive or personal ambition or striving to do God's will?
Pride: NO. Pride won't get you anywhere God wants you to be.
 
I don't know what my IQ is, probably not very high, but I was a monogamy-only believer and preacher until asked some simple questions by a woman who was also M-O. It's not really fair to label us all as nerds; perhaps just badly informed and uncritical in our thinking. People often believe things until they have a need or compulsion to change those beliefs. The real issue is with those who have been challenged or have learnt that their beliefs have no solid foundation but refuse to accept the evidence for a change in their beliefs. That is true for those who hold the M-O or evolution beliefs, or whatever. The evidence is clear but people refuse to accept it. We see examples throughout the Bible of people pointedly challenged by God over their wrongful beliefs but who refuse to change those beliefs; those are the ones most critically castigated by our Lord God, and are both examples and warnings to us. Some M-O people, like I previously was, might just be slow learners who hold erroneous beliefs, but we can learn and grow in the truth. The best thing is to keep teaching the truth and see whose minds are changed to conform to the truth - even if they have lower IQ's. Shalom.

If I may be so bold as attempt to bring harmony to this idea,...
1) M-O, evolution, and other beliefs are easy to fall into because they are pushed by a loud minority and agreeing w them creates no pushback.
2) This results in a "lazy" way of thinking. Instead of actively using your mind to observe the nuanced errors or subtle lies (as well as blatant ones), you become as the Bible calls it "dull of hearing". Many easy mistakes on IQ tests are from not noticing subtle differences in signs, letters, etc. Lazy brains won't notice it.
3) By contrast, this mode of life requires WORK: physical, mental, emotional, & spiritual work. Once u stop accepting "passive education" but begin to become an active participant w God in your progress, you can soon say what it says in
Psa 119:98 - 100,
"Your commandment makes me wiser than my enemies, for it is ever with me.
I have more understanding than all my teachers,
for your testimonies are my meditation.
I understand more than the aged,
for I keep your precepts."
 
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I was inartful when I wrote about the ASVAB: it is indeed an expanded IQ test with specific questions targeted for specific aptitudes, but it's known as an intelligence test; it just very purposefully avoids aligning itself in regard to creating 100-normed IQ scores.

I scored a 98 on the ASVAB when I took it back in the day. Had my pick of whatever w whoever.

Aptitude is actually just a word for potential for applicable intelligence.

The term y'all are searching for is Talents. These are positive, useful qualities one is born with. All talents require some degree of diligence and practice in order to make full use of them, but they are predominantly innate.

Practice and application beats raw talent every time. Talented people tend to find stuff way too easy. We NEED a challenge. Children must be challenged, but they also need to be encouraged. If the baby can't even crawl yet, across the room is "too far". They get frustrated and cry. One step out of reach? Maybe it's doable. Debts are the same way. 10x your annual income? Forget it. 1.5x? Maybe I can get myself out of debt. This is the same challenge w sin. We minimize our sin debt to make it feel like we can "earn our way to Heaven" not realizing the actual impossibility. Then various religions make that debt so impossible that Jesus isn't good news at all; folks just give up and resign themselves to Hell.

Intelligence is a talent.
Intuition is a talent.
Perfect pitch is a talent.
Allowing for wind, drag and gravity without having to think about it can also be an innate talent; it becomes a skill if it's developed, much like the person learning how to play an instrument through years of lessons.

All these and more are talents, but perfect pitch is not intelligence, and intelligence is not perfect pitch.

Intelligence is NOT a talent. Intelligence is the modern term to describe the combine talents in both math and language.
Math can be a talent, but we all need a basic grounding in math.
Linguistics can be a talent, but we all need a basic understanding of our own language to communicate.

Intuition is NOT a talent. Inutition is the basic communication between u and God on a spiritual level. Like a man who gouged out his own eyes, we can deny our intuition and go spiritually deaf.

Perfect pitch? Talent.

Wind, drag, & gravity? Sounds like airplane flying stuff. I've flown very few times in my life. Never even seen a cockpit. It seems like that's more training and experience like driving my semi than talent.

How exactly would u test for that on paper?
 

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Slight disagreement:
Wisdom: Yes.
Honesty: Yes.
Drive: Depends. Are u referring to sex drive or personal ambition or striving to do God's will?
Pride: NO. Pride won't get you anywhere God wants you to be.
I meant how driven one is to find truth.
I meant the lower the pride, the more likely you are to find the truth.
 
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