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Meat Common Misconceptions and Mistranslation Issues

Acts 12:4 KJV says Easter... It's pascha which is Passover... Consistency translated as Passover in all places except this one...
Also Matthew 28:1, where they are going to Christ's tomb. The word Sabbths is often translated as singular so to help prove a Friday crucifixion, however the greek is plural. Anyone who can do math finds out quickly that you indeed cannot get 3 days and 3 nights between Friday and Sunday morning. Wednesday would have been passover and Christ crucified between the evenings and this would give us our 3 days and 3 nights and include the High Sabbath feast days and also our normal Sabbath, don't forget about feast of unleavened bread. Our normal Sabbath would end Saturday evening and they went quite early on Sunday morning to look. In John 20 it says it was still dark. Christ technically resurrected Saturday before the sun went down.
Most churches advocate for a Friday crucifixion but it's quite easy to disprove. Good Friday does not technically exist, if anything Good Wednesday would be correct.
 
A really big difference indeed!

Lol and here I thought you were gonna kick us off with John 3:16, as you mentioned elsewhere, wherein the word "believe" is really in the present active participle, and should really be translated "believing" as a continuous.
I cant break everyone right away, now can I? 😁
 
Some folks are currently involved in the latest thread discussing various translations here: https://biblicalfamilies.org/forum/threads/kjv-onlyism.16123/, but I'll just get this out of the way here before making any further comments: I highly prefer the Concordant-project Scriptures. The Concordant project has been going on for over 100 years and is an ongoing effort to drill deeper and deeper into not only etymology and hermeneutics but with a commitment to (a) making primary whatever oldest extant pieces of Scripture are available, and (b) when at all possible translating any given Hebrew, Aramaic or Greek word from those closest-to-original manuscripts with the same English word every time they appear. The background commitment for the project is to bypass all the bias and purposeful mistranslation that has been fallaciously-injected into it since Scripture was originally written. When I quote either the Concordant Version of the Old Testament [CVOT] or the Concordant Literal New Testament [CLNT], you'll notice that some words are bolded while others aren't; the bolded ones are the straight translation, and the unbolded ones are words only added to make the syntax flow sound like the manner in which people speak in the present day, as opposed to the more cave-man-like cadence of thousands of years ago (what we consider sophistication they probably would have considered a waste of time -- kind of like reading my posts seem to most people, right?).

So: I Samuel 1:6: "Moreover her rival would vex her to vexation in order to dishearten her since Yahweh had tightly closed up her womb." [CVOT]

This is צָֽרָתָהּ֙ surrounded by a whole lot of vexing and vexation, so I start off wondering if your interpretation isn't wishful thinking in search of a further positive justification for polygyny or further refutation of arguments that Hannah and Penninah exemplify why polygyny is bad. I do get both why people erroneously correlate the behavior in question with polygyny (when it's just another example of female nature and/or weak male leadership) and why you would want to refute that, but

I believe you've missed something here: צָֽרָתָהּ֙ (transliterated as either 'tsarah' or, less convincingly, 'saratah' [a tangential curiosity is the close etymology of 'tsarah' to 'sarah;' the generally-accepted translation of the proper name 'Sarah' is 'Princess,' but this is most likely explainable due to Sarah's association with Abraham after YHWH renamed her in the wake of producing Isaac; 'sarai' now holds connotations of barrenness, but at the time of Abraham it was the feminine equivalent of a combative man, and I'd assert that the Sarai/Hagar sisterwifehood is yet another example, not of the ills of polygyny, but of the ills of female vexation, but I digress]) isn't an example of a unique word that is translated one way in I Samuel 1:6 but otherwise elsewhere -- it's an example of a word that is so unique that it itself only appears in that form once in Scripture. צָֽרָתָהּ֙ is the partial basis for a number of other words, as well as being related etymologically to numerous additional words, but they coalesce around meanings centering on 'distress' leaning heavily toward 'vexation,' which definitionally implies distress being purposefully incited by another. [This can all be discovered by starting at Strong's 6869.]

Then there's the full context, keeping in mind that Elkanah was in violation of Exodus 21:10: "He had two wives; the name of the one was Hannah, and the name of the second was Peninnah. And Peninnah came to have children; but Hannah had no children. From days to days this man went up from his city to worship and to sacrifice to Yahweh of hosts at Shiloh. There Eli and the two sons of Eli, Hophni and Phinehas, were priests for Yahweh. When the day came that Elkanah sacrificed, then he would give to his wife Peninnah and to all her sons and her daughters their assigned shares. But to Hannah he would give one double-sized assigned share, for it was Hannah that he loved; yet Yahweh had closed her womb. Moreover her rival would vex her to vexation in order to dishearten her since Yahweh had tightly closed up her womb. This happened year by year. As often as she went up to the house of Yahweh, the other would vex her in this way, so that she lamented and would not eat. Why are you not eating? And why does your heart feel bad? Am not I better for you than ten sons?" [I Samuel 1:2-8 CVOT]

Clearly, I Samuel comes right out of the gate with an exposition of why Exodus 21:10 is His Imperative; this is a lesson for a husband of two wives. I challenge any of us to assert that we can't imagine falling into the snare that Elkanah entrapped himself in: favoring one wife over the other, looking like a simp in the process ("Oh, honey, isn't it clear that my passion is primarily for you?; isn't that what you've always wanted?; isn't being so favored in my eyes that I would violate YHWH's commandment to treat my wives equally more precious to you than being a mother?"), and in the process failing to address the taunting Hannah received from Penninah if not outright inspiring it through his ongoing failure to correct the situation and redirect the behavior of the wife he was disrespecting.

We also have to remember that this story was written by the eventual son of the aggrieved Hannah, but that only emphasizes the other, more lasting, lesson of the narrative: YHWH rewarded Hannah for transforming her vexation, distress and anger into committing herself to dedicating her son to Elohim if He would remove the barrenness of her womb. The punishment of barrenness was visited upon both Elkanah and Hannah, but it was Hannah and her humility that Yah rewarded, which is why we rarely hear the name Elkanah and probably can't remember the last time we heard someone bragging about being a descendant of Peninnah.

It's impossible to remove barrenness from the cultural context of both the place of women and the dynamics among women at those times. Producing heirs was the highest calling for a woman, and I would declare it a denial of the foundational makeup of female nature to fail to recognize that it would almost be a given that a man should expect that his prolific wife would vex his other wife who was more loved, was given a double portion and who was also barren. Would we have expected Peninnah to vex Hannah for being more loved or for getting more cash, provisions or quarters? Or do we just believe because these were biblical figures that all women were just sitting around being universally wonderful, loving, cooperative and kind?
I have not been familiarized yet with the concordance project, but thank you for bringing it to mind, I will certainly use it as a resource going forward!

I have no intention of using any one passage as a means of justifying polygyny. I was told that this verse proves their rivalry and was confused about it so I looked further into it, not as a means of justifying my position, but to test the translation I was using. I had then compared the word translated differently with how it is used elsewhere in Scripture. The word itself seems to simply mean "trouble" or "distress". While the only difference I see is the slight variation in construct, I could not be sure as to whether or not that would personalize the distress into a rival adversary. It seemed like a bit of a jump to me. Penninah may very well have been adding to Hannah's distress, she may have played a significant part in it, but I don't think that is what this verse is directly saying, that she was the sole cause of it.

At this point, I cross-referenced this with an English-rendered Septuagint, which @FollowingHim elaborates a bit more on in his reply.

As for breaking Exodus 21:10, I have some qualms about that. One could make the case that Penninah did by extent receive more, since she and her children received portions, leading one to the conclusion that her and her children collectively would have had to receive more than Hannah's double portion. Regardless of the amount of children Penninah had, a minimum of two would be required to exceed the one double portion. If Hannah did indeed unduly receive more though, it still does not break Exodus 21:10. While I agree that a man should not show favoritism between his two wives, Exodus 21:10 speaks of reducing the first ones portion in light of the second. Finally, Elkanah's giving of Hannah a double portion is in part based on her barrenness, based on verse 5 of chapter 1. It seems to be an act or at least an attempt at comfort in lieu of her plight, her barrenness. We have no direct indication that he continued to give her a double portion after she bore him children.

Next, I would be wary to call Hannah's barrenness a punishment. A trial, yes, but a punishment speaks of punitive response, and we have no indication that Hannah did something to warrant barrenness from God as a result. Likewise, Elkanah is blessed by God as well as Hannah, in 2 Samuel 2:20.

And as for the point that we rarely hear his name or Penninah's either, I would caution you against making that point, we cannot use the frequency of being mentioned in Scripture as a means of determining righteousness. Likewise, where all is Hannah mentioned outside of the first two chapters of Samuel?

As for cultural context, there very well may have been strife. It may have characterized their relationship, it may not have. We can make plenty of assumptions either way, but as we can see, a slight change in the nuance of the translation of this one word has a big impact on that, lol.
 
In this case, the LXX gives an inconsistent answer (I'm using the Brenton translation of the LXX incidentally).
Just wondering: what is the value in relying on a major project to translate the Hebrew of the Old Testament into Greek for the purpose of aligning with the dominant GrecoRoman culture? Why not go straight from Hebrew to English rather than Hebrew to Greek to English?
 
righteousness
I'm not imputing righteousness or lack of righteous, but I am asserting that Elkanah was an insufficient leader, because Scripture provides us no evidence that he intervened in the obvious conflict between his wives (I consider relying on the LXX to be insufficient, because it's just adding in unnecessary steps between original manuscripts and current English).

I also can't imagine that Yah placed in His Word at the beginning of a two-book chronicle of one of the key figures of Scripture a description of how one wife got a double portion because she was the one her husband loved just as a matter of word filler. Every passage of Scripture has purpose, and no amount of measuring Hannah vs. Peninnah and her kids allows for doing an end run around Exodus 21:10: "If he is taking another for himself, he shall not diminish her meat, her covering and her cohabitation." Those are each woman's portion. It's not unreasonable to assume that what Yah wanted conveyed in I Samuel 1:4 was that Hannah was getting twice as much meat (food), covering (protection, companionship, clothes, etc.) and cohabitation (sexual intimacy). Let's get real here: there's no such thing as such a situation in which no conflict would emerge between the women. Just ask your own women what their reaction would be to being on either side of such an equation.

It's not an issue of righteousness but one of male foolishness, and whether or not one labels a subsequent situation a punishment or just a coincidence, there's no way to speak away the fact that being barren was considered not only undesirable but, in the cultural context of the times, evidence of Yah's displeasure.
 
Just wondering: what is the value in relying on a major project to translate the Hebrew of the Old Testament into Greek for the purpose of aligning with the dominant GrecoRoman culture? Why not go straight from Hebrew to English rather than Hebrew to Greek to English?
The scholars in the LXX project are said to have been hand-picked by the High Priest of the day, as the top experts available to him. They were native Hebrew speakers in a Greek culture, and knew Hebrew far better than any modern scholar can ever hope to, however well studied. In the case of a difficult word, they can be expected to render it accurately into Greek. That Greek can then be a valuable check of whether an English translator has accurately rendered that word in English. If there's a substantial disagreement, that should raise questions.

I think it is slanderous to assume that they did this translation "for the purpose of aligning with the dominant GrecoRoman culture". They did it because Greek was now so widely spoken that a translation had great practical value - and practically because a wealthy sponsor decided to pay for it. To impute negative motivations is uncalled for. Are English translations made solely "for the purpose of aligning with the dominant Western culture"? Certainly, the culture does influence the translator, but usually subconsciously - most translators are genuinely trying to make the scriptures more accessible to people who speak their language. I can only see reasons for the LXX to be more, not less, robustly translated than a modern English translation.
 
Are English translations made solely "for the purpose of aligning with the dominant Western culture"?
Sadly, most of the most-used English translations were indeed produced for the purpose of solidifying some type of statist or religious power structure.

But you haven't answered my question: Why not go straight from Hebrew to English rather than Hebrew to Greek to English?

I no more consider a High Priest to have a greater In with Yah than I would a Pope or a pastor or someone screaming at the sky in the middle of the town square.
 
Just wondering: what is the value in relying on a major project to translate the Hebrew of the Old Testament into Greek for the purpose of aligning with the dominant GrecoRoman culture? Why not go straight from Hebrew to English rather than Hebrew to Greek to English?
The Greek manuscript is actually much older than the Hebrew manuscripts.
 
The Greek manuscript is actually much older than the Hebrew manuscripts.
I'll have to look into that, because I was totally unaware that Moses wrote in Greek.
 
The scholars in the LXX project are said to have been hand-picked by the High Priest of the day, as the top experts available to him. They were native Hebrew speakers in a Greek culture, and knew Hebrew far better than any modern scholar can ever hope to, however well studied. In the case of a difficult word, they can be expected to render it accurately into Greek. That Greek can then be a valuable check of whether an English translator has accurately rendered that word in English. If there's a substantial disagreement, that should raise questions.

I think it is slanderous to assume that they did this translation "for the purpose of aligning with the dominant GrecoRoman culture". They did it because Greek was now so widely spoken that a translation had great practical value - and practically because a wealthy sponsor decided to pay for it. To impute negative motivations is uncalled for. Are English translations made solely "for the purpose of aligning with the dominant Western culture"? Certainly, the culture does influence the translator, but usually subconsciously - most translators are genuinely trying to make the scriptures more accessible to people who speak their language. I can only see reasons for the LXX to be more, not less, robustly translated than a modern English translation.
Not to mention that Paul quotes from it, Christ teaches from it, and this would have been the bible the disciples had.
 
But you haven't answered my question: Why not go straight from Hebrew to English rather than Hebrew to Greek to English?
In these cases, we are talking about times when the Hebrew itself is ambiguous, at least to us when we are looking at it (maybe it's not ambiguous to a perfect expert, but in our case it's ambiguous). In the case of Hannah, the Hebrew might be saying she is being vexed by the fact that she is barren, or it could mean that she is vexed by her sisterwife. The Hebrew can be interpreted either way (hence the arguments in both directions presented by different people above).

So then it is good to ask "well, what did a native-speaking Hebrew scholar think it meant?". And that question we can answer by looking at the LXX - because it was translated by native-speaking Hebrew scholars. We are not translating Hebrew - Greek - English, but rather verifying the meaning of a phrase by referring to a Hebrew-Greek translation. We are using the LXX as a dictionary or grammar textbook.

And in this case we can see that these scholars did not think the Hebrew was referring to her sisterwife, but just that she was vexed by her barrenness. That is very helpful for us as we seek to understand the Hebrew.

Of course, you should add to that the fact that the Hebrew copies we have actually date from the 9th century or so, and were compiled by an anti-Christian Jewish sect (the Masoretes), while the LXX copies we have are much older (so although Moses didn't write in Greek, the physical Greek manuscripts we have are older as @Pacman said) and were compiled by the Church. And the fact that when old Hebrew copies of the Old Testament writings have turned up in the Dead Sea Scrolls, those copies actually agree more with the LXX than the Masoretic text. So the LXX was translated from an older version of the Hebrew manuscripts than the ones that we have available, and the differences between the two are as likely to be due to corruptions in the Hebrew as to corruptions in the Greek translation. So do not assume that just because a manuscript is written in Hebrew it is necessarily more accurate than one that is written in Greek - this is a complex topic. Without going too deep into that, I'll just say it's better to just look at all sources and find the consensus reading, rather than picking one source and assuming it is completely perfect and the other is perverted.
 
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Also Matthew 28:1, where they are going to Christ's tomb. The word Sabbths is often translated as singular so to help prove a Friday crucifixion, however the greek is plural. Anyone who can do math finds out quickly that you indeed cannot get 3 days and 3 nights between Friday and Sunday morning. Wednesday would have been passover and Christ crucified between the evenings and this would give us our 3 days and 3 nights and include the High Sabbath feast days and also our normal Sabbath, don't forget about feast of unleavened bread. Our normal Sabbath would end Saturday evening and they went quite early on Sunday morning to look. In John 20 it says it was still dark. Christ technically resurrected Saturday before the sun went down.
Most churches advocate for a Friday crucifixion but it's quite easy to disprove. Good Friday does not technically exist, if anything Good Wednesday would be correct.
Keep in mind the evening and the morning constitute the day; one day ends at sunset and the next begins. Only Matthew uses the idiom, three days and three nights, however Acts, for example says on the third day (Acts 10:40). Cheers
 
We are not translating Hebrew - Greek - English, but rather verifying the meaning of a phrase by referring to a Hebrew-Greek translation. We are using the LXX as a dictionary or grammar textbook.
Well articulated! This is also the benefit of considering other translations to help us grow in our understanding of a passage.
 
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Keep in mind the evening and the morning constitute the day; one day ends at sunset and the next begins. Only Matthew uses the idiom, three days and three nights, however Acts, for example says on the third day (Acts 10:40). Cheers
Would that not mean that the Friday version is compatible with Mark, Luke and John, but contradicted by Matthew, while a Wednesday version would be compatible with all four gospels? Is it reasonable to choose an interpretation that is directly contradicted by one gospel, or do we need to find an interpretation that harmonises with all of them?
 
I'm not sure how Wednesday is compatible with all four... . Could you explain please?
Note that I'm not wedded to one version or the other, just trying to wrap my own head around it.

It all depends what day you count as the "first" day. If the crucifixion was a Wednesday, then you could count Thursday as the first day He was in the grave, Friday second, Saturday third, with resurrection on Saturday and discovery Sunday morning - exactly as proposed by @James Pease based on Matthew's wording. So both the terms "the third day" (Mark, Luke and Acts - I can't actually see an it in John) and "three days and three nights" (Matthew 12:40) are able to be read in a way that is compatible with that version of events.

While the term "the third day" can also certainly be read as being compatible with a Friday crucifixion (Friday, Saturday, Sunday), but Matthew 12:40 cannot be read in a manner that is compatible - unless there is another way of looking at Matthew's statement that I have overlooked. A Friday crucifixion only has Him in the grave for two nights and one day.
 
Keep in mind the evening and the morning constitute the day; one day ends at sunset and the next begins. Only Matthew uses the idiom, three days and three nights, however Acts, for example says on the third day (Acts 10:40). Cheers
Correct that Jonah is used as an example. I interpret this literally and not idiomatically. It occurs as a mention in Luke as well. This is how I see it rendered with all accounts. Christ crucified on Wed afternoon. So wed eve to thurs morning is 1 day. Thursday Eve to Fri morning is 2 days. Fri Eve to Sat morning is 3 days. He is risen before sundown on Saturday constituting 3 days and fits all time periods. Wed night 1, Thurs night 2, Friday night 3. Risen before sat night. Total 3 days 3 nights.
 
Note that I'm not wedded to one version or the other, just trying to wrap my own head around it.

It all depends what day you count as the "first" day. If the crucifixion was a Wednesday, then you could count Thursday as the first day He was in the grave, Friday second, Saturday third, with resurrection on Saturday and discovery Sunday morning - exactly as proposed by @James Pease based on Matthew's wording. So both the terms "the third day" (Mark, Luke and Acts - I can't actually see an it in John) and "three days and three nights" (Matthew 12:40) are able to be read in a way that is compatible with that version of events.

While the term "the third day" can also certainly be read as being compatible with a Friday crucifixion (Friday, Saturday, Sunday), but Matthew 12:40 cannot be read in a manner that is compatible - unless there is another way of looking at Matthew's statement that I have overlooked. A Friday crucifixion only has Him in the grave for two nights and one day.
Correct
 
While the term "the third day" can also certainly be read as being compatible with a Friday crucifixion (Friday, Saturday, Sunday), but Matthew 12:40 cannot be read in a manner that is compatible - unless there is another way of looking at Matthew's statement that I have overlooked. A Friday crucifixion only has Him in the grave for two nights and one day.
My understanding is that Matthew records Christ using the Jewish expression as it refers to the day. This is how I see it used in e.g. Esther 4:16 and it is applied in 5:1. In e.g. Luke 24:7, the Greek article used in the phrase; and the third day rise again, is locative feminine singular indicating in or on the third day. Also in Luke 24, the two on the road to Emmaus encountered the risen Christ and explained how the chief priests and our rulers delivered Him to the sentence of death, and crucified Him (Luke 24:20). This they go on to say, ...is the third day since these things happened (v:21); i.e. is the third day since these crucifixion events occurred.

The core issue is the truth of the resurrection of the Lord Jesus Christ; without it our faith is futile and we are still in our sins (cf. 1 Cor. 15:17). However we might note that the gospel Paul preached is, that Christ died for our sins, according to the Writings, and that he was buried, and that he hath risen on the third day, according to the Writings (YLT 1 Cor. 15:3, 4). The Greek article used in the phrase here (on the third day) is again locative feminine singular indicating (as YLT translates it) on the third day. The gospel includes the proclamation of the resurrection on the third day, not after three days and three nights.

My $0.02 here. Shalom
 
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