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Meat Common Misconceptions and Mistranslation Issues

Luke S

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Hey y'all,

So, this may be a bit random of a discussion, but I figured this would be a good place to discuss it.

I have in practice found certain passages in the Scripture that seem to be very commonly mistranslated. In light of that, I wanted to run a few of them by y'all for us to discuss. Iron sharpens iron, and I wanted to see what y'all's thoughts are on some of these inquiries, whether the passages are indeed mistranslated, how they should be rendered instead, and what the implications are of it, both in our own theology and in how the common church as a whole treats the passage instead.

Likewise, feel free to post any others you find in your studies too. Either way, it should yield for us some heavily intriguing word studies. God's Word never returns void, and I look forward to delving into the Scriptures with all of you!
 
The first one I'd like to point out would be 1 Samuel 1:6. Most translations use the term "adversary", leading most to believe that it was Penninah who vexed Hannah and provoked her year by year. While this may be possible, I do not believe that this is what this passage is saying. The Hebrew Word translated as "adversary" here, tsārâ, is only ever translated this way just this one time, and this one time only. Every other time it is used, it speaks of adversity, distress, and/or trouble. Thus, I believe that "adversity" or "distress" is a better rendering of the word used here in this passage.

Contextually, this makes sense as well. This word is linked to an explanatory clause in the verse, for YHWH hath shut up her womb. It doesn't really make sense why Penninah would mock Hannah saying how YHWH closed her womb. Likewise, we have no other indication that there was any kind of strife between Hannah and Penninah. Also, Elkanah clearly loved Hannah. The distress Hannah seems to be enduring is not the mockery of a rival wife but instead the tribulation brought about by barrenness. This makes sense contextually, but even if that conclusion is inaccurate, translating this word as "adversary" will skew any study or analysis towards blaming Penninah for Hannah's plight.
 
I gotta another fun one for you guys:

Job 1 and 2. Every time you read the word "curse" it's actually the word "bless". This is the Hebrew word "barak", which is translated "bless" literally hundreds of times. It is only ever translated as "curse" four times, all of which are in the first two chapters of Job. We'll dive into that in a second, but even in Job, the word is used and translated as "bless". Job 1:21b -- let the name of YHWH be blessed. It is even translated differently in the same sentence -- Job 1:10-11, where Satan says that Job only loves God because God has blessed (barak) the work of his hands, and then uses that same word for what Job will do to God. Job's reaction to God is two of the times this word is translated "curse."

One of the other times -- Job 1:5, makes more sense as "bless" as well. Job is offering sacrifices for his sons in case they had sinned yet or while blessing God in their hearts. This makes sense in light of the trespass offering, and would be an offering for unintentional sin, hence how they would sin and still be blessing God in their hearts.

Likewise, in looking at Job 2:9, we get the big kicker -- Job's wife is not saying to curse God and die, she is saying bless God and die. This makes more sense in light of the context too. All of her sons just died. Her husband was a righteous man who blessed God. To her, blessing God brings death. That is the immediate perspective she has in her grief. Likewise, one of Job's consistent struggles in the book is how the wicked prosper while the righteous suffer. Thus, it is reasonable that her lament is that blessing God brings death and is all for nought.

Do look into this yourself though and let me know what you think! Be a good Berean!
 
And there's the third:

I'd like to credit @James Pease for pointing this one out to me.

Matthew 5:28 -- he who looks at a woman with lust did commit adultery with her in his heart.

Likely mistranslated. The Geek word "gynē" is the same word for "woman" and is the same word for "wife", all depending on the context. Contextually, in the biblical sense, a woman cannot commit adultery if she is not married. Likewise, a man cannot commit adultery with an unmarried woman. Levitically, adultery was always contingent on the marital status of the woman. The only exception to this seems to be in the event of divorce and remarriage, wrongful replacement, as Jesus discusses in Matthew 19. However, with this verse, you would still have the issue of how to apply it in the case of a man never married desiring a woman also never married. Who is the adultery committed against?

An unmarried man can still commit adultery with a married woman. Thus, in light of all the above, it makes more sense to translate this word as "wife" instead of "woman" in this particular context and in this verse indeed.

Next, the word translated "lust", "epithymeō". This word is most commonly translated as "desire". In the Septuagint, the word is used in the Ten Commandments, you shall not desire your neighbor's house, you shall not desire your neighbor's wife. While desire can certainly have a lustful, sexual connotation, sexual lust does not cover everything that "desire" does.

Thus, I believe a more accurate rendering of the verse, Matthew 5:28, would read "he who looks upon a wife to desire her, did commit adultery with her in his heart".

This can include sexual desire, but raises the accountability as it includes nonsexual desire. This rendering raises the standard, while narrowing the scope and focus. Jesus is commenting on covetousness. This gives us an elaboration and expanding upon a previously given commandment. If a man desires another's wife for nonsexual reasons, be it her cooking, friendship, or hospitality, for example, he still commits adultery with her in his heart because of his covetousness. Likewise, I wouldn't condemn a man for looking forward to having sex with the woman whom he is betrothed to, or for desiring to have her as his wife. The issue comes when the woman is already another man's wife. Then it is covetousness, then it is adultery in the heart. Thus, a simple change in rendering of these two words greatly increases our understanding of the passage, of Jesus' teaching on the matter.

Thank you, please do let me know what you think!
 
Great thread!

Matthew 24:27 (KJV) For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

Lightning does not flow east to west, only the light of dawn does. Slowly, imperceptibly, until you suddenly realize that it happened without your being aware.
Does this speak of his second coming, or is there a different fulfillment?
 
Excellent @Luke S , I'll have ponder the first and second. The third I knew.

Thanks, keep 'em coming! 😁
 
Revelation 22:19
TR manuscript says Book of Life
Critical says Tree of Life.
Btw the Book Of Life is an incredibly complex study with the use of biblion and biblios and also the lambs book of Life only being used twice, not to mention being written in the book or blotted out of the book, and being able to differentiate when the book of life is opened and also other books. Im glad we have the Holy Spirit! I still patiently await for more and more understanding. Years of study have helped, but there is nothing like God saying "look here dummy!"
Screenshot_20220709-081447.png
 
And there's the third:

I'd like to credit @James Pease for pointing this one out to me.

Matthew 5:28 -- he who looks at a woman with lust did commit adultery with her in his heart.

Likely mistranslated. The Geek word "gynē" is the same word for "woman" and is the same word for "wife", all depending on the context. Contextually, in the biblical sense, a woman cannot commit adultery if she is not married. Likewise, a man cannot commit adultery with an unmarried woman. Levitically, adultery was always contingent on the marital status of the woman. The only exception to this seems to be in the event of divorce and remarriage, wrongful replacement, as Jesus discusses in Matthew 19. However, with this verse, you would still have the issue of how to apply it in the case of a man never married desiring a woman also never married. Who is the adultery committed against?

An unmarried man can still commit adultery with a married woman. Thus, in light of all the above, it makes more sense to translate this word as "wife" instead of "woman" in this particular context and in this verse indeed.

Next, the word translated "lust", "epithymeō". This word is most commonly translated as "desire". In the Septuagint, the word is used in the Ten Commandments, you shall not desire your neighbor's house, you shall not desire your neighbor's wife. While desire can certainly have a lustful, sexual connotation, sexual lust does not cover everything that "desire" does.

Thus, I believe a more accurate rendering of the verse, Matthew 5:28, would read "he who looks upon a wife to desire her, did commit adultery with her in his heart".

This can include sexual desire, but raises the accountability as it includes nonsexual desire. This rendering raises the standard, while narrowing the scope and focus. Jesus is commenting on covetousness. This gives us an elaboration and expanding upon a previously given commandment. If a man desires another's wife for nonsexual reasons, be it her cooking, friendship, or hospitality, for example, he still commits adultery with her in his heart because of his covetousness. Likewise, I wouldn't condemn a man for looking forward to having sex with the woman whom he is betrothed to, or for desiring to have her as his wife. The issue comes when the woman is already another man's wife. Then it is covetousness, then it is adultery in the heart. Thus, a simple change in rendering of these two words greatly increases our understanding of the passage, of Jesus' teaching on the matter.

Thank you, please do let me know what you think!
Deuteronomy 21:11 would also be a contradiction if it was "lust for any woman"
 
Great thread!

Matthew 24:27 (KJV) For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

Lightning does not flow east to west, only the light of dawn does. Slowly, imperceptibly, until you suddenly realize that it happened without your being aware.
Does this speak of his second coming, or is there a different fulfillment?
The word for lightning can be translated light, or bright. Luke 11:36 translated bright shining. We can also see this in the LXX . Deuteronomy 32:41 has the word as brightness, Hab 3:11 brightness, Job 20:25 glittering. I however do agree that lightning is a good translation and that it speaks of the coming of the Son Of Man. Good catch Steve.
 
I however do agree that lightning is a good translation and that it speaks of the coming of the Son Of Man.
I’m confused.
How do you justify lighting as a good translation and factor in coming from the east to the west?

Btw:
Matthew 28:3 (KJV) His countenance was like lightning, and his raiment white as snow:

I can understand clothing being flashy, but someone’s countenance?
I believe that this should be light or bright light also.
 
I’m confused.
How do you justify lighting as a good translation and factor in coming from the east to the west?

Btw:
Matthew 28:3 (KJV) His countenance was like lightning, and his raiment white as snow:

I can understand clothing being flashy, but someone’s countenance?
I believe that this should be light or bright light also.
Sorry I didn't communicate well. The word can be translated as lightning correctly. I believe here the word light or bright might be better fitting. I agree that lighting comes and goes just like the Son Of Man
 
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Revelation 22:19
TR manuscript says Book of Life
Critical says Tree of Life.
Btw the Book Of Life is an incredibly complex study with the use of biblion and biblios and also the lambs book of Life only being used twice, not to mention being written in the book or blotted out of the book, and being able to differentiate when the book of life is opened and also other books. Im glad we have the Holy Spirit! I still patiently await for more and more understanding. Years of study have helped, but there is nothing like God saying "look here dummy!"
View attachment 3214
A really big difference indeed!

Lol and here I thought you were gonna kick us off with John 3:16, as you mentioned elsewhere, wherein the word "believe" is really in the present active participle, and should really be translated "believing" as a continuous.
 
The first one I'd like to point out would be 1 Samuel 1:6.
Some folks are currently involved in the latest thread discussing various translations here: https://biblicalfamilies.org/forum/threads/kjv-onlyism.16123/, but I'll just get this out of the way here before making any further comments: I highly prefer the Concordant-project Scriptures. The Concordant project has been going on for over 100 years and is an ongoing effort to drill deeper and deeper into not only etymology and hermeneutics but with a commitment to (a) making primary whatever oldest extant pieces of Scripture are available, and (b) when at all possible translating any given Hebrew, Aramaic or Greek word from those closest-to-original manuscripts with the same English word every time they appear. The background commitment for the project is to bypass all the bias and purposeful mistranslation that has been fallaciously-injected into it since Scripture was originally written. When I quote either the Concordant Version of the Old Testament [CVOT] or the Concordant Literal New Testament [CLNT], you'll notice that some words are bolded while others aren't; the bolded ones are the straight translation, and the unbolded ones are words only added to make the syntax flow sound like the manner in which people speak in the present day, as opposed to the more cave-man-like cadence of thousands of years ago (what we consider sophistication they probably would have considered a waste of time -- kind of like reading my posts seem to most people, right?).

So: I Samuel 1:6: "Moreover her rival would vex her to vexation in order to dishearten her since Yahweh had tightly closed up her womb." [CVOT]

This is צָֽרָתָהּ֙ surrounded by a whole lot of vexing and vexation, so I start off wondering if your interpretation isn't wishful thinking in search of a further positive justification for polygyny or further refutation of arguments that Hannah and Penninah exemplify why polygyny is bad. I do get both why people erroneously correlate the behavior in question with polygyny (when it's just another example of female nature and/or weak male leadership) and why you would want to refute that, but
The Hebrew Word translated as "adversary" here, tsārâ, is only ever translated this way just this one time, and this one time only. Every other time it is used, it speaks of adversity, distress, and/or trouble.
I believe you've missed something here: צָֽרָתָהּ֙ (transliterated as either 'tsarah' or, less convincingly, 'saratah' [a tangential curiosity is the close etymology of 'tsarah' to 'sarah;' the generally-accepted translation of the proper name 'Sarah' is 'Princess,' but this is most likely explainable due to Sarah's association with Abraham after YHWH renamed her in the wake of producing Isaac; 'sarai' now holds connotations of barrenness, but at the time of Abraham it was the feminine equivalent of a combative man, and I'd assert that the Sarai/Hagar sisterwifehood is yet another example, not of the ills of polygyny, but of the ills of female vexation, but I digress]) isn't an example of a unique word that is translated one way in I Samuel 1:6 but otherwise elsewhere -- it's an example of a word that is so unique that it itself only appears in that form once in Scripture. צָֽרָתָהּ֙ is the partial basis for a number of other words, as well as being related etymologically to numerous additional words, but they coalesce around meanings centering on 'distress' leaning heavily toward 'vexation,' which definitionally implies distress being purposefully incited by another. [This can all be discovered by starting at Strong's 6869.]

Then there's the full context, keeping in mind that Elkanah was in violation of Exodus 21:10: "He had two wives; the name of the one was Hannah, and the name of the second was Peninnah. And Peninnah came to have children; but Hannah had no children. From days to days this man went up from his city to worship and to sacrifice to Yahweh of hosts at Shiloh. There Eli and the two sons of Eli, Hophni and Phinehas, were priests for Yahweh. When the day came that Elkanah sacrificed, then he would give to his wife Peninnah and to all her sons and her daughters their assigned shares. But to Hannah he would give one double-sized assigned share, for it was Hannah that he loved; yet Yahweh had closed her womb. Moreover her rival would vex her to vexation in order to dishearten her since Yahweh had tightly closed up her womb. This happened year by year. As often as she went up to the house of Yahweh, the other would vex her in this way, so that she lamented and would not eat. Why are you not eating? And why does your heart feel bad? Am not I better for you than ten sons?" [I Samuel 1:2-8 CVOT]

Clearly, I Samuel comes right out of the gate with an exposition of why Exodus 21:10 is His Imperative; this is a lesson for a husband of two wives. I challenge any of us to assert that we can't imagine falling into the snare that Elkanah entrapped himself in: favoring one wife over the other, looking like a simp in the process ("Oh, honey, isn't it clear that my passion is primarily for you?; isn't that what you've always wanted?; isn't being so favored in my eyes that I would violate YHWH's commandment to treat my wives equally more precious to you than being a mother?"), and in the process failing to address the taunting Hannah received from Penninah if not outright inspiring it through his ongoing failure to correct the situation and redirect the behavior of the wife he was disrespecting.

We also have to remember that this story was written by the eventual son of the aggrieved Hannah, but that only emphasizes the other, more lasting, lesson of the narrative: YHWH rewarded Hannah for transforming her vexation, distress and anger into committing herself to dedicating her son to Elohim if He would remove the barrenness of her womb. The punishment of barrenness was visited upon both Elkanah and Hannah, but it was Hannah and her humility that Yah rewarded, which is why we rarely hear the name Elkanah and probably can't remember the last time we heard someone bragging about being a descendant of Peninnah.
The distress Hannah seems to be enduring is not the mockery of a rival wife but instead the tribulation brought about by barrenness.
It's impossible to remove barrenness from the cultural context of both the place of women and the dynamics among women at those times. Producing heirs was the highest calling for a woman, and I would declare it a denial of the foundational makeup of female nature to fail to recognize that it would almost be a given that a man should expect that his prolific wife would vex his other wife who was more loved, was given a double portion and who was also barren. Would we have expected Peninnah to vex Hannah for being more loved or for getting more cash, provisions or quarters? Or do we just believe because these were biblical figures that all women were just sitting around being universally wonderful, loving, cooperative and kind?
 
The first one I'd like to point out would be 1 Samuel 1:6. Most translations use the term "adversary", leading most to believe that it was Penninah who vexed Hannah and provoked her year by year. While this may be possible, I do not believe that this is what this passage is saying. The Hebrew Word translated as "adversary" here, tsārâ, is only ever translated this way just this one time, and this one time only. Every other time it is used, it speaks of adversity, distress, and/or trouble. Thus, I believe that "adversity" or "distress" is a better rendering of the word used here in this passage.

Contextually, this makes sense as well. This word is linked to an explanatory clause in the verse, for YHWH hath shut up her womb. It doesn't really make sense why Penninah would mock Hannah saying how YHWH closed her womb. Likewise, we have no other indication that there was any kind of strife between Hannah and Penninah. Also, Elkanah clearly loved Hannah. The distress Hannah seems to be enduring is not the mockery of a rival wife but instead the tribulation brought about by barrenness. This makes sense contextually, but even if that conclusion is inaccurate, translating this word as "adversary" will skew any study or analysis towards blaming Penninah for Hannah's plight.
I think it's most intriguingly just transliterated rather than translated: "And Sara provoked her sore, for to make her fret". What do you think @FollowingHim2? Looks like it's your fault.

Seriously, I believe you're right. An English translation of the Septuagint renders this verse "For the Lord gave her no child in her affliction, and according to the despondency of her affliction, and she was dispirited on this account, that the Lord shut up her womb so as not to give her a child.". In other words, the LXX translators viewed it exactly as you have proposed, blaming her barrenness itself for causing her despair and not blaming Penninah at all.
 
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Job 1 and 2. Every time you read the word "curse" it's actually the word "bless". This is the Hebrew word "barak", which is translated "bless" literally hundreds of times. It is only ever translated as "curse" four times, all of which are in the first two chapters of Job.
Sure that's the root word, and it's an interesting thought, but can one of the Hebrew scholars here elaborate on whether there is any difference in the precise Hebrew form of that word used in these verses that renders it "curse" instead of "bless"? Maybe @IshChayil if he comes on and sees this.

In this case, the LXX gives an inconsistent answer (I'm using the Brenton translation of the LXX incidentally). I'm using the LXX to check these questions on the assumption that the scholars who did that translation understood Hebrew better than any modern translator can hope to, so well that their translation was used authoritatively by the New Testament church and the Church Fathers. Sure, there are some concerns about various details of it, but when it comes to a simple question like the meaning of a single word it is most informative to see what the LXX translators thought the word meant, as an explanatory tool.
It is even translated differently in the same sentence -- Job 1:10-11, where Satan says that Job only loves God because God has blessed (barak) the work of his hands, and then uses that same word for what Job will do to God. Job's reaction to God is two of the times this word is translated "curse."
The LXX uses "bless" in both cases as you have proposed. But
One of the other times -- Job 1:5, makes more sense as "bless" as well. Job is offering sacrifices for his sons in case they had sinned yet or while blessing God in their hearts. This makes sense in light of the trespass offering, and would be an offering for unintentional sin, hence how they would sin and still be blessing God in their hearts.

Likewise, in looking at Job 2:9, we get the big kicker -- Job's wife is not saying to curse God and die, she is saying bless God and die.
Job 1:5 becomes "Lest perhaps my sons have thought evil in their minds against God", and Job 2:9 becomes "say some word against the Lord, and die".

This leaves me thinking that the Hebrew must be more nuanced, and actually convey the meaning of "curse" in at least some of these cases even though that is not the simple meaning of the root word when looked up in a modern concordance.
 
I think it's most intriguingly just transliterated rather than translated: "And Sara provoked her sore, for to make her fret". What do you think @FollowingHim2?

Seriously, I believe you're right. An English translation of the Septuagint renders this verse "For the Lord gave her no child in her affliction, and according to the despondency of her affliction, and she was dispirited on this account, that the Lord shut up her womb so as not to give her a child.". In other words, the LXX translators viewed it exactly as you have proposed, blaming her barrenness itself for causing her despair and not blaming Penninah at all.
You are in a heck of a weird mood tonight. I'm putting it down to the meal you cooked. You poisoned your brain.
 
Great thread!

Matthew 24:27 (KJV) For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

Lightning does not flow east to west, only the light of dawn does. Slowly, imperceptibly, until you suddenly realize that it happened without your being aware.
Does this speak of his second coming, or is there a different fulfillment?
But the lighting does "shineth even unto the west". Sure, forked lightning (which is only one type of lightning) might physically travel between the clouds and the ground - but the light from it flashes and lights up the entire sky, from the east to the west. Sheet lightning, which goes from one cloud to another, also lights the entire sky. This verse does not say that the lightning "goes to the west", but that it "shines to the west". Big difference.

So I don't see a problem with the original translation - lightning does do that. You could argue that "light" might be a better rendering given that it could be referring to light from lightning but could equally be referring to light from other sources. However, the only sources known at the time of writing to light up the entire sky would be the sun, moon and lightning - and only lightning comes suddenly, like "the coming of the Son of man". So I don't see what else it could be referring to.
 
Acts 12:4 KJV says Easter... It's pascha which is Passover... Consistency translated as Passover in all places except this one...
 
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