Church Authority (aka pastor) part of the headship?

[yoderfamily]

There's naturally a longer story but I knew he was having an issue with me. So the morning of the alliance assembly I parked beside his truck, waved at him, he just ignored me. I stepped out of the van and leaned against the front and waited about 4 minutes and he refused to step out. Another pastor showed up so I walked inside with him. After devotions pastor 1 asked what the qualifications were for being a part of the alliance. The rest confirmed they welcome anyone in ministry that is there to help the people in the county. They realized he was talking about me as I was the only one not an ordained pastor. Pastor 1 proceeded to assert I fit under the category of 1 Corinthians 5
11 But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat.

12 For what have I to do to judge them also that are without? do not ye judge them that are within?

13 But them that are without God judgeth. Therefore put away from among yourselves that wicked person.

Said he would not be able to stay if I stayed. He didn't go into a whole lot of details but said it was confidential. (Results of 2 marriage counseling session .) The other pastor's tried to get a reconciliation from him at the time but he wouldn't buckle.
My first instinct was this meeting is supposed to be about helping the people in the county and I wasn't inclined to cause a scene. I meekly bowed out and told him I would like to be reconciled and left. Later that day he called my wife and told her he thinks it would be better if he did counsel us anymore.
I texted some with him and on the last text last half he admitted he might have been wrong and he would like to extend Grace and forgiveness and desires same from me. I counseled with an elder of the church we go to and he advised me to wait till the pastor approaches me as he wronged me. This happened several months ago and while he smiles and waves as if nothing has changed he has made no effort to talk with me. And yet the last words I keep hearing him say is That last verse in Corinthians 5. I believe I would be welcome back at the alliance meetings by the rest of the group. Am just hesitant to go without a conversation with this other pastor.

 

[Asforme&myhouse]

There's naturally a longer story but I knew he was having an issue with me. So the morning of the alliance assembly I parked beside his truck, waved at him, he just ignored me. I stepped out of the van and leaned against the front and waited about 4 minutes and he refused to step out. Another pastor showed up so I walked inside with him. After devotions pastor 1 asked what the qualifications were for being a part of the alliance. The rest confirmed they welcome anyone in ministry that is there to help the people in the county. They realized he was talking about me as I was the only one not an ordained pastor. Pastor 1 proceeded to assert I fit under the category of 1 Corinthians 5
11 But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat.

12 For what have I to do to judge them also that are without? do not ye judge them that are within?

13 But them that are without God judgeth. Therefore put away from among yourselves that wicked person.

Said he would not be able to stay if I stayed. He didn't go into a whole lot of details but said it was confidential. (Results of 2 marriage counseling session .) The other pastor's tried to get a reconciliation from him at the time but he wouldn't buckle.
My first instinct was this meeting is supposed to be about helping the people in the county and I wasn't inclined to cause a scene. I meekly bowed out and told him I would like to be reconciled and left. Later that day he called my wife and told her he thinks it would be better if he did counsel us anymore.
I texted some with him and on the last text last half he admitted he might have been wrong and he would like to extend Grace and forgiveness and desires same from me. I counseled with an elder of the church we go to and he advised me to wait till the pastor approaches me as he wronged me. This happened several months ago and while he smiles and waves as if nothing has changed he has made no effort to talk with me. And yet the last words I keep hearing him say is That last verse in Corinthians 5. I believe I would be welcome back at the alliance meetings by the rest of the group. Am just hesitant to go without a conversation with this other pastor.

You’ve done nothing wrong. You shouldn’t act like you have, IMHO. Walk in and participate and if he has a problem with you then he needs to articulate it. I would tell him to stop texting my wife too... cause that’s just weird. Of course I’m not a big fan of the whole marriage counseling with husband and wife together thing, but maybe that’s just me.

 

[Pacman]

There's naturally a longer story but I knew he was having an issue with me. So the morning of the alliance assembly I parked beside his truck, waved at him, he just ignored me. I stepped out of the van and leaned against the front and waited about 4 minutes and he refused to step out. Another pastor showed up so I walked inside with him. After devotions pastor 1 asked what the qualifications were for being a part of the alliance. The rest confirmed they welcome anyone in ministry that is there to help the people in the county. They realized he was talking about me as I was the only one not an ordained pastor. Pastor 1 proceeded to assert I fit under the category of 1 Corinthians 5
11 But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat.

12 For what have I to do to judge them also that are without? do not ye judge them that are within?

13 But them that are without God judgeth. Therefore put away from among yourselves that wicked person.

Said he would not be able to stay if I stayed. He didn't go into a whole lot of details but said it was confidential. (Results of 2 marriage counseling session .) The other pastor's tried to get a reconciliation from him at the time but he wouldn't buckle.
My first instinct was this meeting is supposed to be about helping the people in the county and I wasn't inclined to cause a scene. I meekly bowed out and told him I would like to be reconciled and left. Later that day he called my wife and told her he thinks it would be better if he did counsel us anymore.
I texted some with him and on the last text last half he admitted he might have been wrong and he would like to extend Grace and forgiveness and desires same from me. I counseled with an elder of the church we go to and he advised me to wait till the pastor approaches me as he wronged me. This happened several months ago and while he smiles and waves as if nothing has changed he has made no effort to talk with me. And yet the last words I keep hearing him say is That last verse in Corinthians 5. I believe I would be welcome back at the alliance meetings by the rest of the group. Am just hesitant to go without a conversation with this other pastor.

So is this ministerial alliance a denominational thing? Or is this just within your local assembly?

 

[yoderfamily]

It is one thing for me to debate with 1 pastor but wouldn't feel like taking on 6. He never mentioned polygany. Just made references to hidden sexual sins. I gave him ammunition when I posted a meme ( that i hadn't read the last half of) on a private local fire chat that contained 2 f words. I am a captain at the local fire department. And had this pastor brought in on my recommendation as a chaplain for the fire department. We used to be friends. Now I feel a little lost and conflicted. He was never very active with the fire department. So biding my time and seeing what gives.

 

[yoderfamily]

So is this ministerial alliance a denominational thing? Or is this just within your local assembly?

It's all the local ministers coming together in a non-denominational setting to work for the betterment of the county.

 

[yoderfamily]

Im

You’ve done nothing wrong. You shouldn’t act like you have, IMHO. Walk in and participate and if he has a problem with you then he needs to articulate it. I would tell him to stop texting my wife too... cause that’s just weird. Of course I’m not a big fan of the whole marriage counseling with husband and wife together thing, but maybe that’s just me.

I'm not a fan of other men texting or calling my wife either. In hindsight I wish I would have stood my ground yet then the meeting would have become about us. I do believe the the tipping point was my reference that I didn't believe another man is to be in the headship. While I believe he has authority in the governing order of his church I believe thats about as far as it extends. We go to a local non-denominational church

 

[PeteR]

It's all the local ministers coming together in a non-denominational setting to work for the betterment of the county.

As a chaplain, ordained or not, you fit. Ordination does not equal 'pastor' (shepherd) and 'pastor' according to scripture nowhere requires 'ordination' afaik.

 

[Pacman]

It's all the local ministers coming together in a non-denominational setting to work for the betterment of the county.

Understood.

It is one thing for me to debate with 1 pastor but wouldn't feel like taking on 6. He never mentioned polygany. Just made references to hidden sexual sins. I gave him ammunition when I posted a meme ( that i hadn't read the last half of) on a private local fire chat that contained 2 f words. I am a captain at the local fire department. And had this pastor brought in on my recommendation as a chaplain for the fire department. We used to be friends. Now I feel a little lost and conflicted. He was never very active with the fire department. So biding my time and seeing what gives.

Does he know that the meme thing was not intentional?

I wouldn’t allow him to railroad you. Assuming there isn’t more information it doesn’t sound like you did anything wrong. So you should hold his feet to the fire if it comes down to it. You have a right to hear and address the accusations against you.

PM me if you want to talk.

 

[yoderfamily]

I think what the pastor said was odd and could easily mean horrible things. However I don't think that he's necessarily wrong about occupying a place of authority above the men in his fellowship (although he probably has strange ideas about what that means). So I'm just going to address headship here.
As it says in Hebrews 13
Obey your leaders and submit to them, for they are keeping watch over your souls, as those who will have to give an account. Let them do this with joy and not with groaning, for that would be of no advantage to you.

I confess the idea of headship seems pretty close to what is described here. When I see someone that I am to Obey and Submit to, because they will be held culpable for the condition of my soul... what is that but a fitting description of what I mean when I say that i am head over my wife?

I am a firm believer that whoever you acknowledge as your leader, you should submit to. Which.... is why I hot-footed it out of church organizations 15 years ago and have scarcely looked back. I found an article, and it is mercifully brief, that I really like on the subject. The role of elders authority, that is. Not leaving church.

http://www.truthmagazine.com/archives/volume28/GOT028079.html

I understand the need to have order in an assembly and I understand the chain of command. But the way I read the obey and submit to those who are your leaders is entirely an order thing not a salvation thing. Otherwise the pope is justified in having others call him father.

 

[yoderfamily]

The fi

Understood.



Does he know that the meme thing was not intentional?

I wouldn’t allow him to railroad you. Assuming there isn’t more information it doesn’t sound like you did anything wrong. So you should hold his feet to the fire if it comes down to it. You have a right to hear and address the accusations against you.

PM me if you want to talk.[/QUO
He was clearly told by me and reaffirmed by the chief it was unintentional.

I hadn't intended to make this a thread about that incident. I would like to see a little more details on how far church authority reaches. I am limited in when I get time to post and normally don't have the time to fully articulate. But really appreciate when you guys do.
Keep it up

 

[Pacman]

I understand the need to have order in an assembly and I understand the chain of command. But the way I read the obey and submit to those who are your leaders is entirely an order thing not a salvation thing. Otherwise the pope is justified in having others call him father.

It’s obey them because they are teaching the scriptures. The authority is with the scriptures not with the man.

To draw a modern analogy it’s similar to the tenth amendment to the US constitution. And abused or ignored almost as much.

[The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people.]

Yeshua told his disciples:

Matthew 23:2-3 NASB
[2] saying: "The scribes and the Pharisees have seated themselves in the chair of Moses; [3] therefore all that they tell you, do and observe, but do not do according to their deeds; for they say things and do not do them.

The scriptures (specifically Torah) was read verbatim from that seat. So he is telling them to obey the scriptures. They have zero authority in themselves and actually as soon as they try to claim that they do they are in direct violation of scripture.

 

[yoderfamily]

And I'm still having quote issues. Pry from responding on a phone

 

[Pacman]

And I'm still having quote issues. Pry from responding on a phone

No problem I found your response within the quote...

 

[Pacman]

Hebrews 13:17 NASB
[17] Obey your leaders and submit to them, for they keep watch over your souls as those who will give an account. Let them do this with joy and not with grief, for this would be unprofitable for you.

Translator bias???

That word translated as obey is:

Strong's Number
G3982
Original Word
πείθω
Transliterated Word
peithō
Phonetic Spelling
pi'-tho
Parts of Speech
Verb

Thayer's Definition

1. persuade
   1. to persuade, i.e. to induce one by words to believe
      
      
   2. to make friends of, to win one's favour, gain one's good will, or to seek to win one, strive to please one
      
      
   3. to tranquillise
      
      
   4. to persuade unto i.e. move or induce one to persuasion to do something
2. be persuaded
   1. to be persuaded, to suffer one's self to be persuaded; to be induced to believe: to have faith: in a thing
      1. to believe
         
         
      2. to be persuaded of a thing concerning a person
   2. to listen to, obey, yield to, comply with
3. to trust, have confidence, be confident

Usage by Word
persuaded (8), convinced (7), confidence (6), persuade (4), confident(3), obey (3), over (3), put (3), trust (3), followed (2), have (2), having (2), sure(2), won (2), advice (1), assure (1), favor (1), listen (1), obeying (1), persuading (1), relied (1), seeking (1), took (1), trusted (1), trusting (1), trusts(1), urging (1), win (1)

That word submit is:

Strong's Number
G5226
Original Word
ὑπείκω
Transliterated Word
hupeikō
Phonetic Spelling
hoop-i'-ko
Parts of Speech
Verb

Thayer's Definition

1. to resist no longer, but to give way, yield (of combatants)
   
   
2. metaph. to yield to authority and admonition, to submit

Usage by Word
submit (1)
Usage by Book
Hebrews

So “obey” seems to have a very different definition than our modern understanding of it.

And “submit” that’s the only time in all of scripture that it’s used...

I realize that we don’t know for sure who wrote Hebrews but this admonishment seems appropriate here.

2 Peter 3:14-16 NASB
[14] Therefore, beloved, since you look for these things, be diligent to be found by Him in peace, spotless and blameless, [15] and regard the patience of our Lord as salvation; just as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given him, wrote to you, [16] as also in all his letters, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which the untaught and unstable distort, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures, to their own destruction.

 

[rockfox]

One of the main points of Lysander Spooner in "No Treason" was that the federal government is not accountable to the people they are supposed to represent/serve.
It is painfully obvious when one looks at the corruption and abuses of power in any man made organization that true "public servants " must be humble and God fearing.....trouble is the people drawn to those "jobs" are usually after power and authority.
The other problem is that as soon as you pay a public servant....out of public funds especially, you create a conflict of interest. The one being paid is now motivated to please .....the people? NO! He is motivated to stay on good terms with his co workers so they don't rat on him, or fire him. Then, when the inevitable corruption starts, there is really nothing to stop it.

And it seems too many of the ones drawn to pastor jobs are often the bottom of the barrel in terms of natural ability to lead.

It's all the local ministers coming together in a non-denominational setting to work for the betterment of the county.

But do they actually do any good?

Of course I’m not a big fan of the whole marriage counseling with husband and wife together thing, but maybe that’s just me.

Not just you. Marriage counselors, Christian or not, are worse than useless in most cases.

 

[Pacman]

Not just you. Marriage counselors, Christian or not, are worse than useless in most cases.

And almost always completely unbiblical with their counsel. I’m curious if any of them have ever even read Numbers 30...

 

[Verifyveritas76]

Translator bias???

I’d say so. Not from the original but from the KJV translators who were instructed to maintain and support the clergy laity hierarchy.

 

[Slumberfreeze]

But the way I read the obey and submit to those who are your leaders is entirely an order thing not a salvation thing.

I did't know we were talking about a salvation issue. My bad.

 

[yoderfamily]

I did't know we were talking about a salvation issue. My bad.

I come from a background where church authority is considered part of the headship. If you resist it you are considered rebellious and dealt with according. Even if the resistance is based on admitted scriptural error.
That's where they believe it becomes a salvation issue. What is bound on Earth is bound in heaven....

 

[Pacman]

I’d say so. Not from the original but from the KJV translators who were instructed to maintain and support the clergy laity hierarchy.

Not sure I understand what you mean? Bias is coming from the KJV translators? If so I agree... and the kjv definitely influenced most other English translations...