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Church Authority (aka pastor) part of the headship?

yoderfamily

yoderfamily

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So recently I was outed to a local pastor about my polygany beliefs. And thru out the discussion :eek: biblical headship came up. He asserted as a pastor he falls under the Christ section of the head, right above man. (Church of the Nazarene) The following week he proceeded to get me kicked out of the local ministerial alliance.:rolleyes:

I would like to here any different positions of the headship on this forum.
 
yoderfamily said:
So recently I was outed to a local pastor about my polygany beliefs. And thru out the discussion :eek: biblical headship came up. He asserted as a pastor he falls under the Christ section of the head, right above man. (Church of the Nazarene) The following week he proceeded to get me kicked out of the local ministerial alliance.:rolleyes:

I would like to here any different positions of the headship on this forum.
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There is zero scriptural support for any man having spiritual authority coming between Yeshua and the man. Elders, bishops, Pastors etc... are ministers and it is not a position of authority. They are supposed to be wise counselors and guide the assembly but any “assembly wide decisions” should be agreed upon by all of the men in that assembly. There is no scriptural standing for a human hierarchy of authority within the assembly.
 
yoderfamily said:
So recently I was outed to a local pastor about my polygany beliefs. And thru out the discussion :eek: biblical headship came up. He asserted as a pastor he falls under the Christ section of the head, right above man. (Church of the Nazarene) The following week he proceeded to get me kicked out of the local ministerial alliance.:rolleyes:

I would like to here any different positions of the headship on this forum.
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You mean like the pope?
 
yoderfamily said:
So recently I was outed to a local pastor about my polygany beliefs. And thru out the discussion :eek: biblical headship came up. He asserted as a pastor he falls under the Christ section of the head, right above man. (Church of the Nazarene) The following week he proceeded to get me kicked out of the local ministerial alliance.:rolleyes:

I would like to here any different positions of the headship on this forum.
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Wow... he may have authority as head of the ministerial counsel to limit membership, but he has ZERO unilateral scriptural authority over you.

If you are so bold, ask why he kicked you out... maybe even in front of the ministerial counsel. If he dare say, 'polygamy' challenge him on the spot to a public debate. Dude! Throw down the gauntlet and dare them to violate God's Word.
 
I haven’t met a pastor that has not told me
I need to be under a pastors authority.
They get really concerned and mildly aggressive about it.
It’s really upsetting to most that I study on my own. I recently had one tell me “Christianity” used to be Catholicism and wasn’t until recently a separate thing and then proceeded to tell me I needed to find pastoral authority.


rockfox said:
You took the words out of my mouth.

I'd be temped to nickname him vicar, always said with sarcasm.
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I think what the pastor said was odd and could easily mean horrible things. However I don't think that he's necessarily wrong about occupying a place of authority above the men in his fellowship (although he probably has strange ideas about what that means). So I'm just going to address headship here.
As it says in Hebrews 13
Obey your leaders and submit to them, for they are keeping watch over your souls, as those who will have to give an account. Let them do this with joy and not with groaning, for that would be of no advantage to you.

I confess the idea of headship seems pretty close to what is described here. When I see someone that I am to Obey and Submit to, because they will be held culpable for the condition of my soul... what is that but a fitting description of what I mean when I say that i am head over my wife?

I am a firm believer that whoever you acknowledge as your leader, you should submit to. Which.... is why I hot-footed it out of church organizations 15 years ago and have scarcely looked back. I found an article, and it is mercifully brief, that I really like on the subject. The role of elders authority, that is. Not leaving church.

http://www.truthmagazine.com/archives/volume28/GOT028079.html
 
Slumberfreeze said:
I think what the pastor said was odd and could easily mean horrible things. However I don't think that he's necessarily wrong about occupying a place of authority above the men in his fellowship (although he probably has strange ideas about what that means). So I'm just going to address headship here.
As it says in Hebrews 13
Obey your leaders and submit to them, for they are keeping watch over your souls, as those who will have to give an account. Let them do this with joy and not with groaning, for that would be of no advantage to you.

I confess the idea of headship seems pretty close to what is described here. When I see someone that I am to Obey and Submit to, because they will be held culpable for the condition of my soul... what is that but a fitting description of what I mean when I say that i am head over my wife?

I am a firm believer that whoever you acknowledge as your leader, you should submit to. Which.... is why I hot-footed it out of church organizations 15 years ago and have scarcely looked back. I found an article, and it is mercifully brief, that I really like on the subject. The role of elders authority, that is. Not leaving church.

http://www.truthmagazine.com/archives/volume28/GOT028079.html
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I think this passage is translated best in the Geneva Bible.

“Obey them that haue the ouersight of you, and submit your selues: for they watche for your soules, as they that must giue accountes, that they may doe it with ioy, and not with griefe: for that is vnprofitable for you.”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭13:17‬ ‭GNV‬‬
 
yoderfamily said:
So recently I was outed to a local pastor about my polygany beliefs. And thru out the discussion :eek: biblical headship came up. He asserted as a pastor he falls under the Christ section of the head, right above man. (Church of the Nazarene) The following week he proceeded to get me kicked out of the local ministerial alliance.:rolleyes:
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What exactly does "kicked out of the local ministerial alliance" mean?

I am always shocked that you can get kicked out for what you believe. I mean church is filled with a whole bunch of people who believe a whole bunch of bad things are OK.
 
David D said:
I think this passage is translated best in the Geneva Bible.

“Obey them that haue the ouersight of you, and submit your selues: for they watche for your soules, as they that must giue accountes, that they may doe it with ioy, and not with griefe: for that is vnprofitable for you.”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭13:17‬ ‭GNV‬‬
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Three things to recognise in this passage.
1) One man does not have the oversight in the assembly. It’s written in the plural. Thats why God gave the assembly apostles, prophets, teachers preachers and evangelist.
2) For those who are on overwatch of the assembly, I’d submit that there is a natural boundary that cannot be overstepped.
3) they must give account and be willing to be examined by those they are stewarding.

And I’d really like to find the pastor that actually thinks that he will give account for everyones soul in the assembly.

Now a father on the other hand . . . .
 
Babies start on milk and need parents whom they must obey. They get older, eat meat, and require less supervision. They eventually leave home and start their own families without being under the supervision of parents, becoming the elders themselves.

So also should be the life of the Christian, but it messes with the plans of the commercial church.
 
One of the main points of Lysander Spooner in "No Treason" was that the federal government is not accountable to the people they are supposed to represent/serve.
It is painfully obvious when one looks at the corruption and abuses of power in any man made organization that true "public servants " must be humble and God fearing.....trouble is the people drawn to those "jobs" are usually after power and authority.
The other problem is that as soon as you pay a public servant....out of public funds especially, you create a conflict of interest. The one being paid is now motivated to please .....the people? NO! He is motivated to stay on good terms with his co workers so they don't rat on him, or fire him. Then, when the inevitable corruption starts, there is really nothing to stop it.

Too many "Good old boy" clubs out there in government, the judiciary/legal practice, law enforcement... and churches......the illusion is that they benefit the people at all.

Respect for God and the boundaries established in His law would make everyone more respectful of his neighbor....and not giving tyrants respectability by pretending God has authorized what they do would be good too.
 
Before I served the assembly as shepherd-teacher I was given a good piece of advice. I was told I could preach to please the people or I could preach to please God, but I wouldn't be able to do both at the same time. However the eternal reward for doing either should be motivation enough to have me do only the right one! And btw, you'll never be popular for long if you do the right one.
 
steve said:
They eventually leave home and start their own families without being under the supervision of parents, becoming the elders themselves. So also should be the life of the Christian, but it messes with the plans of the commercial church.
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Not just the Christian, but the Church as well. The church I attend was setting up its first church plant even before it had become independent of the church that planted us.

But most churches aren't as interested in spreading new churches as they are in growing themselves, working toward the coveted megachurch label.
 
“Obey those who have the oversight of you, and submit yourselves.”

This overseer position is different from the type of authority a husband has in his own household. Wives are told to submit to their own husband in everything. Wives are even told to submit to unbelieving husbands. An overseer’s authority is limited to sound doctrine. We are to obey them because what they are teaching us is the word of God. If they are not teaching the word of God, we are not to obey them.

Yeshua, when teaching during His earthly ministry, told his hearers to obey their rulers because they sat in the seat of Moses. However, when the those rulers told the apostles to stop preaching in the name of Yeshua, the apostles said, “We ought to obey God rather than men.”
 
This discussion/refresher proved helpful in the 'after Shabbat' discussion as the men (7) stood in a circle bantering....

Thanks!
 
It may also be germane to make a comparison with the overseers of the assembly and the elders in a Jewish town.

An elder “ruled” by his opinion or influence or advise unless it was a matter of crime or Torah breaking. At which point he was just one of many in the assembly to lift the hand against the offender. If he happened to be part of the local beit din, then he’d be one of at least 3 men to Judge the offense. But again, there had to be a crime and due public process
 
PeteR said:
This discussion/refresher proved helpful in the 'after Shabbat' discussion as the men (7) stood in a circle bantering....

Thanks!
Click to expand...

We touched on this last evening in our Shabbat fellowship as well.
 
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