1 Timothy 4 "some shall depart from the faith" "Forbidding to marry" Blasphemy!

[steve]

By chance have you slept with or married a woman who "used" to be another mans wife?

Yes I have.
Because a woman belongs under headship and to reject she who has been divorced properly is unBiblical.

What you are teaching is unBiblical.
The-God-who-never-changes allowed for divorce. He never changed his mind.
It is true that divorce has been abused and used improperly, but it is still at times necessary.
Even if the circumstances are wrong/unrighteous, if done correctly, divorce still exists and the woman is without a husband.

 

[frederick]

From the beginning it was not so.
Romans 7
2 For the woman who has a husband is bound by the law to her husband as long as he lives. But if the husband dies, she is released from the law of her husband.
3 So then if, while her husband lives, she marries another man, she will be called an adulteress; but if her husband dies, she is free from that law, so that she is no adulteress, though she has married another man.

Matthew 19
3 The Pharisees also came to Him, testing Him, and saying to Him, “Is it lawful for a man to divorce his wife for just any reason?”
4 And He answered and said to them, “Have you not read that He who [a]made them at the beginning ‘made them male and female,’
5 and said, ‘For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh’?
6 So then, they are no longer two but one flesh. Therefore what God has joined together, let not man separate.”
7 They said to Him, “Why then did Moses command to give a certificate of divorce, and to put her away?”
8 He said to them, “Moses, because of the hardness of your hearts, permitted you to divorce your wives, but from the beginning it was not so. 9 And I say to you, whoever divorces his wife, except for sexual immorality, and marries another, commits adultery; and whoever marries her who is divorced commits adultery.”
10 His disciples said to Him, “If such is the case of the man with his wife, it is better not to marry.”

I gather from reading your posts that follow this one above you believe God has changed His instructions regarding divorce which He gave in Deut. 24:1-4. Perhaps you have come to that conclusion, at least in part, by mis-reading Romans 7:2-3(?) Brother, have a look at Romans 7:1; Or do you not know, brethren (for I speak to those who know the law), that the law has dominion over a man as long as he lives?

Please note that Paul is writing to the saints at Rome regarding the power of the law over a person; he is not primarily writing about marriage and divorce. He begins by saying, Or do you not know, brethren... . To help the reader understand what he is saying he follows by drawing upon an aspect of marriage as an analogy, something the readers should understand about this aspect of marriage. The analogy he uses is the power and authority of a husband over his wife as long as the husband lives. Notice that Paul applies this analogy in v:4; Therefore, my brethren, you also have become dead to the law through the body of Christ, that you may be married to another—to Him who was raised from the dead, that we should bear fruit to God. We see that Paul is not writing about marriage and divorce to teach us some new doctrine - a change to the divorce law. This is an analogy for teaching on a different topic and there is nothing in the analogy Paul has used which suggests there is a change to the God's law regarding divorce.

I hope this helps clarify this matter. Cheers

 

[OttoM]

That is a Leap! You are claiming that you can read the minds of the disciples. You are claiming to know their thoughts. That is not a credible claim.



Verse 2 says that she CAN be released from the law of her husband. The first part of the verse sets it up so that we understand that death is one way that she can be released.

Romans 7 has nothing to do with changing the everlasting and perfect righteousness of the Creator.

There is a statement of fact in that analogy to illustrate what Paul is trying to explain.

What if Paul said - “don’t you know that if a man has sexual relations with another married woman (that’s not his wife), he has committed adultery.”

Does this mean a man can have sexual relations with an engaged woman - and not commit adultery? No of course not - that also is adultery and carries the same punishment.

Paul was stating a fact - and there are other ways a married woman can be free to re marry besides her husband dying.

 

[Mark C]

By chance have you slept with or married a woman who "used" to be another mans wife?

Honestly, it's a stupid question. IF it was true that a woman who had MET the conditions specified by YHVH Himself (and reiterated by Him 'in the flesh') is "still married" - then it is IMPOSSIBLE for anyone to marry her!

YHVH says our wives were free to BECOME our wives - so who the #&^%#@! are you to contradict Him?

Which, as Steve noted, makes those who (see the title of this thread?) claim otherwise ("forbidding to marry") thus liars, hypocrites, and "giving heed to deceiving spirits" and, oh, yeah, spreading "doctrines of demons."

Yahushua Himself said He would not change so much as one "yod or tiddle" of His Own Instruction in that very same speech where He reiterated His Instruction about marriage - and you have Him lying about that and DOING so before He even finished making His initial points!

He holds people to their vows, and then advises in this SAME speech that it's better not to make them at all. And just what is making a vow, and then breaking it by "divorcing" that woman, or sending her away unless she ALREADY broke it herself?

And read I Corinthians 7:11, fer cryin' out loud! A woman is "not to depart" from her husband. SO, why oh why, does Paul say that 'if she does so ANYWAY...' she can't remarry? (OK, too easy - rhetorical question only. The answer was already given - "she has a living husband!") And note: That verse, too, suffers from the "divorce" mistranslation fallacy in too many poor examples; the word he wrote there is that the husband is not to "put away his wife." At least the KJV got that one right.

It turns out that there are MANY examples in Scripture of His having made provisions for our failures - including His death itself. Numbers 30, men can nullify their wives' bad vows. There are "sacrifices" specified for "unintentional sin." And He specifies a process for separation of a union that was SUPPOSED to be forever.

I wonder why that guy who wrote the letter to Timothy also said that there are a lot of things that just might be "permissible' - even forgiveable! - but that "are not profitable"?

 

[Joleneakamama]

It turns out that there are MANY examples in Scripture of His having made provisions for our failures - including His death itself. Numbers 30, men can nullify their wives' bad vows. There are "sacrifices" specified for "unintentional sin." And He specifies a process for separation of a union that was SUPPOSED to be forever.

The real practical problem with forbidding divorced women from remarriage is that they then can become TWICE VICTIMS of unjust treatment. I think it is seriously wrong to claim (as some have) that an unjustly divorced woman is still bound to her former husband. If she has a paper. ..OR HE FILED.. she is FREE!

If he can disallow her vows (and he can) and the sin if any is ON HIM, why would someone then make the consequence of HIS SIN in unjustly divorcing her HER PROBLEM?!?

What I love about Biblical law is that is is JUST and holds people responsible for their choices in relationships. A man sleeps with an available woman? He is to go talk to her dad after the FIRST TIME they are intimate.....NOT think about marriage after a couple years of living together. It is the acting out in relationships of "let your yes be yes and your no be no" and is vitally important so that others can avoid trespassing into adultery.....even of the heart.

The justice gets lost when a former wife gets punnished and judged for being divorced.

Men need to look at who innitiated the divorce. That is important. ....but EVEN IF IT WAS THE WOMAN....if the husband granted it....she is free to remarry. (Men may be wise to be cautious.....as she may not like her next husband any better.....but it's not adultery)

 

[Joleneakamama]

Now - why wouldn’t a man get a certificate? Probably the same reason a man would avoid it today! It’s expensive getting a certificate. There may of been some financial cost to getting the certificate; just like there is today. Way cheaper verbally telling her, and sending her out of your house.

Getting a legal divorce may cost, thanks to the corrupt legal profession and courts....but biblically all that was required was for the man to write it and give it to her. This can be accomplished with a notary, or far better, TWO witnesses to his signature on a document. Make 2 copies so he has one too.
Make three and file one at the County Recorders office. Now it is public record.

Then he can no longer charge her with adultery for being an a new relationship....and legal status be damned (as it someday will be when the courts of baal go away)

Trouble is too many believers hold that man made system in higher regard then they do His word.

According to the book the WHOLE DUTY OF MAN is to FEAR YHWH and guard His commands.

 

[Man_in_the_Middle]

The real practical problem with forbidding divorced women from remarriage is that they then can become TWICE VICTIMS of unjust treatment. I think it is seriously wrong to claim (as some have) that an unjustly divorced woman is still bound to her former husband. If she has a paper. ..OR HE FILED.. she is FREE!
....

Men need to look at who innitiated the divorce. That is important. ....but EVEN IF IT WAS THE WOMAN....if the husband granted it....she is free to remarry.

This point needs to be restated! Joleneakamama is EXACTLY right. If a woman asks for a divorce and the man grants it to her it is every bit as valid as when she does not ask for it and he gives it to her.

Her request for a divorce may be verbally given directly to him OR just as valid, she can file for a divorce and serve him with papers.
If he signs those papers, HE IS GRANTING her a divorce.

If he refuses to sign the papers, she should withdraw her request because even though the court of law would in time grant her a state divorce without his signature, it is meaningless in the eyes of God.

 

[Man_in_the_Middle]

Getting a legal divorce may cost, thanks to the corrupt legal profession and courts....but biblically all that was required was for the man to write it and give it to her. This can be accomplished with a notary, or far better, TWO witnesses to his signature on a document. Make 2 copies so he has one too.
Make three and file one at the County Recorders office. Now it is public record.

Then he can no longer charge her with adultery for being an a new relationship....and legal status be damned (as it someday will be when the courts of baal go away)

Trouble is too many believers hold that man made system in higher regard then they do His word.

According to the book the WHOLE DUTY OF MAN is to FEAR YHWH and guard His commands.

I agree with you regarding the requirement of God does not include the state BUT, for clarity, if the STATE was involved in documenting the marriage, the state should be involved in documenting the dissolution of it as well. Not that God honors it MORE in that case but that it is only fair to the woman that everything that referenced her marriage should be clearly reflecting the reality of the situation as it now is.

 

[Mr.M]

Suffice it to say, the simplest proof of the radical error is the Word of the Savior Yahushua Himself: He said He was not changing so much as "one yod or tiddle" (not the tiniest bit) of His Instruction, and so, since He is not a liar, He did NOT. (And Matthew 5:32 is only a dozen verses later besides!)

^ This is not true. We don't stone people to death for picking up sticks on the sabbath anymore as commanded in Numbers 15 32-36 because New Testament changed that, your cherry picking what has changed and denying MANY verses to believe in the fable that divorce is still allowed because otherwise.... Its Adultery.

Have you seen the "sisterwives" show? Kody the polygynist man in the show had 3 wives and many kids for 2 decades and they were a happy family who lived together and were very bountiful. Then... after 20 years of happy marriages he marries "robin" who just divorced her husband for slapping her. Kody marries her and goes into her and over the next few seasons kody's wives all become miserable, want there own houses, then divorces him. Nothing changed besides Kody marrying a woman with a living husband, commiting adultery. His whole life fell apart on TV for the whole world to see as an example of why NOT to commit adultery by marrying other mens wives. Because Kody did not love the truth, he was sent a strong delusion by the Yahuah so he may believe the lie, because Kody took pleasure in unrighteousness.

2 Thessalonians 2
10 and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11 And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie,
12 that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

2 Timothy 4
3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine, but according to their own desires, because they have itching ears, they will heap up for themselves teachers;
4 and they will turn their ears away from the truth, and be turned aside to fables.

 

[Mr.M]

Romans 7 has nothing to do with changing the everlasting and perfect righteousness of the Creator.

There is a statement of fact in that analogy to illustrate what Paul is trying to explain.

What if Paul said - “don’t you know that if a man has sexual relations with another married woman (that’s not his wife), he has committed adultery.”

Does this mean a man can have sexual relations with an engaged woman - and not commit adultery? No of course not - that also is adultery and carries the same punishment.

Paul was stating a fact - and there are other ways a married woman can be free to re marry besides her husband dying.

If her husband is an unbeliever and wont live with her then she can divorce him according to scripture. But remarriage after divorce for other reasons is Adultery. That's why the disciples say "it is better not to marry."

Matthew 19
3 The Pharisees also came to Him, testing Him, and saying to Him, “Is it lawful for a man to divorce his wife for just any reason?”
4 And He answered and said to them, “Have you not read that He who [a]made them at the beginning ‘made them male and female,’
5 and said, ‘For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh’?
6 So then, they are no longer two but one flesh. Therefore what God has joined together, let not man separate.”
7 They said to Him, “Why then did Moses command to give a certificate of divorce, and to put her away?”
8 He said to them, “Moses, because of the hardness of your hearts, permitted you to divorce your wives, but from the beginning it was not so. 9 And I say to you, whoever divorces his wife, except for sexual immorality, and marries another, commits adultery; and whoever marries her who is divorced commits adultery.”
10 His disciples said to Him, “If such is the case of the man with his wife, it is better not to marry.”

 

[Mr.M]

I gather from reading your posts that follow this one above you believe God has changed His instructions regarding divorce which He gave in Deut. 24:1-4. Perhaps you have come to that conclusion, at least in part, by mis-reading Romans 7:2-3(?) Brother, have a look at Romans 7:1; Or do you not know, brethren (for I speak to those who know the law), that the law has dominion over a man as long as he lives?

Please note that Paul is writing to the saints at Rome regarding the power of the law over a person; he is not primarily writing about marriage and divorce. He begins by saying, Or do you not know, brethren... . To help the reader understand what he is saying he follows by drawing upon an aspect of marriage as an analogy, something the readers should understand about this aspect of marriage. The analogy he uses is the power and authority of a husband over his wife as long as the husband lives. Notice that Paul applies this analogy in v:4; Therefore, my brethren, you also have become dead to the law through the body of Christ, that you may be married to another—to Him who was raised from the dead, that we should bear fruit to God. We see that Paul is not writing about marriage and divorce to teach us some new doctrine - a change to the divorce law. This is an analogy for teaching on a different topic and there is nothing in the analogy Paul has used which suggests there is a change to the God's law regarding divorce.

I hope this helps clarify this matter. Cheers

Paul did not change it, Yahushua changed it. If you think it can not be changed then explain to me why we don't stone people to death for working on the sabbath anymore as commanded in Numbers 15 32-36?

Also why do the disciples say "If such is the case of the man with his wife, it is better not to marry.”? IF divorce was still allowed. That doesnt make sense, think about it.

Matthew 19
3 The Pharisees also came to Him, testing Him, and saying to Him, “Is it lawful for a man to divorce his wife for just any reason?”
4 And He answered and said to them, “Have you not read that He who made them at the beginning ‘made them male and female,’
5 and said, ‘For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh’?
6 So then, they are no longer two but one flesh. Therefore what God has joined together, let not man separate.”
7 They said to Him, “Why then did Moses command to give a certificate of divorce, and to put her away?”
8 He said to them, “Moses, because of the hardness of your hearts, permitted you to divorce your wives, but from the beginning it was not so. 9 And I say to you, whoever divorces his wife, except for sexual immorality, and marries another, commits adultery; and whoever marries her who is divorced commits adultery.”
10 His disciples said to Him, “If such is the case of the man with his wife, it is better not to marry.”

2 Thessalonians 2
10 and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
11 And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie,
12 that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

 

[Man_in_the_Middle]

Paul did not change it, Yahushua changed it. If you think it can not be changed then explain to me why we don't stone people to death for working on the sabbath anymore as commanded in Numbers 15 32-36?

Also why do the disciples say "If such is the case of the man with his wife, it is better not to marry.”? IF divorce was still allowed. That doesnt make sense, think about it.

Matthew 19
3 The Pharisees also came to Him, testing Him, and saying to Him, “Is it lawful for a man to divorce his wife for just any reason?”
4 And He answered and said to them, “Have you not read that He who made them at the beginning ‘made them male and female,’
5 and said, ‘For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh’?
6 So then, they are no longer two but one flesh. Therefore what God has joined together, let not man separate.”
7 They said to Him, “Why then did Moses command to give a certificate of divorce, and to put her away?”
8 He said to them, “Moses, because of the hardness of your hearts, permitted you to divorce your wives, but from the beginning it was not so. 9 And I say to you, whoever divorces his wife, except for sexual immorality, and marries another, commits adultery; and whoever marries her who is divorced commits adultery.”
10 His disciples said to Him, “If such is the case of the man with his wife, it is better not to marry.”

2 Thessalonians 2
10 and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
11 And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie,
12 that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

A Challenge for you if you are mature enough to take it...

Go look up the definition in the GREEK for every instance of the word, "divorce" in the passage that you are repeatedly quoting.

Ask your self why those words are used the way they are...

Then, be honest with yourself and contemplate the new understanding that you have been given....

 

[steve]

Getting a legal divorce may cost, thanks to the corrupt legal profession and courts....but biblically all that was required was for the man to write it and give it to her. This can be accomplished with a notary, or far better, TWO witnesses to his signature on a document. Make 2 copies so he has one too.
Make three and file one at the County Recorders office. Now it is public record.

Then he can no longer charge her with adultery for being an a new relationship....and legal status be damned (as it someday will be when the courts of baal go away)

Trouble is too many believers hold that man made system in higher regard then they do His word.

According to the book the WHOLE DUTY OF MAN is to FEAR YHWH and guard His commands.

As far as the cost of a divorce back in the day, a bride-price or dowry may have complicated the situation.

 

[steve]

This is not true. We don't stone people to death for picking up sticks on the sabbath anymore as commanded in Numbers 15 32-36 because New Testament changed that,

Please provide proof.

Hint: it didn’t happen.

 

[steve]

Have you seen the "sisterwives" show? Kody the polygynist man in the show had 3 wives and many kids for 2 decades and they were a happy family who lived together and were very bountiful. Then... after 20 years of happy marriages he marries "robin" who just divorced her husband for slapping her. Kody marries her and goes into her and over the next few seasons kody's wives all become miserable, want their own houses, then divorces him. Nothing changed besides Kody marrying a woman with a living husband, commiting adultery. His whole life fell apart on TV for the whole world to see as an example of why NOT to commit adultery by marrying other mens wives. Because Kody did not love the truth, he was sent a strong delusion by the Yahuah so he may believe the lie, because Kody took pleasure in unrighteousness.

Interesting assumptions.
I’m not saying that the divorce was justified, but if her ex signed the documents he was no longer her husband.
Biblically, though, a woman did not divorce her husband. There was no provision for it.

 

[steve]

f her husband is an unbeliever and wont live with her then she can divorce him according to scripture.

I don’t think this is true.

 

[Mr.M]

Yes I have.
Because a woman belongs under headship and to reject she who has been divorced properly is unBiblical.

What you are teaching is unBiblical.
The-God-who-never-changes allowed for divorce. He never changed his mind.
It is true that divorce has been abused and used improperly, but it is still at times necessary.
Even if the circumstances are wrong/unrighteous, if done correctly, divorce still exists and the woman is without a husband.

Not so. Do we stone people to death for working on the sabbath like was commanded in Numbers 15 32-36? No. Why? Because a change was made and told to us by Paul. We don't question that change because it makes our lives easier. But the changes that make things harder (like Yahushua calling remarriage after divorce adultery) you say cannot be changed! Its cherry picking.

Because divorce is not allowed anymore is why the disciples say "It is better not to marry."
Matthew 19
3 The Pharisees also came to Him, testing Him, and saying to Him, “Is it lawful for a man to divorce his wife for just any reason?”
4 And He answered and said to them, “Have you not read that He who made them at the beginning ‘made them male and female,’
5 and said, ‘For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh’?
6 So then, they are no longer two but one flesh. Therefore what God has joined together, let not man separate.”
7 They said to Him, “Why then did Moses command to give a certificate of divorce, and to put her away?”
8 He said to them, “Moses, because of the hardness of your hearts, permitted you to divorce your wives, but from the beginning it was not so. 9 And I say to you, whoever divorces his wife, except for sexual immorality, and marries another, commits adultery; and whoever marries her who is divorced commits adultery.”
10 His disciples said to Him, “If such is the case of the man with his wife, it is better not to marry.”

2 Thessalonians 2
10 and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11 And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie, 12 that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

 

[Mr.M]

I don’t think this is true.

Really? What does this verse mean if not that?

1 Corinthians 7
12 But to the rest I, not the Lord, say: If any brother has a wife who does not believe, and she is willing to live with him, let him not divorce her.
13 And a woman who has a husband who does not believe, if he is willing to live with her, let her not divorce him.
14 For the unbelieving husband is sanctified by the wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified by the husband; otherwise your children would be unclean, but now they are holy.
15 But if the unbeliever departs, let him depart; a brother or a sister is not under bondage in such cases. But God has called us to peace.
16 For how do you know, O wife, whether you will save your husband? Or how do you know, O husband, whether you will save your wife?

 

[Mr.M]

Interesting assumptions.
I’m not saying that the divorce was justified, but if her ex signed the documents he was no longer her husband.
Biblically, though, a woman did not divorce her husband. There was no provision for it.

I'm not assuming, I believe and love the truth.

2 Thessalonians 2
10 and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11 And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie,
12 that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

Luke 16
18 “Whoever divorces his wife and marries another commits adultery; and whoever marries her who is divorced from her husband commits adultery.

Matthew 5
32 But I say to you that whoever divorces his wife for any reason except sexual immorality causes her to commit adultery; and whoever marries a woman who is divorced commits adultery.

Matthew 19
4 And He answered and said to them, “Have you not read that He who made them at the beginning ‘made them male and female,’
5 and said, ‘For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh’?
6 So then, they are no longer two but one flesh. Therefore what God has joined together, let not man separate.”
7 They said to Him, “Why then did Moses command to give a certificate of divorce, and to put her away?”
8 He said to them, “Moses, because of the hardness of your hearts, permitted you to divorce your wives, but from the beginning it was not so. 9 And I say to you, whoever divorces his wife, except for sexual immorality, and marries another, commits adultery; and whoever marries her who is divorced commits adultery.”
10 His disciples said to Him, “If such is the case of the man with his wife, it is better not to marry.”

^ better not to marry since divorce is not allowed.

Mark 10
4 They said, “Moses permitted a man to write a certificate of divorce and send her away.”
5 “It was because your hearts were hard that Moses wrote you this law,” Jesus replied.
6 “But at the beginning of creation God ‘made them male and female.’
7 ‘For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife,
8 and the two will become one flesh.’ So they are no longer two, but one flesh.
9 Therefore what God has joined together, let no one separate.”
10 When they were in the house again, the disciples asked Jesus about this.
11 He answered, “Anyone who divorces his wife and marries another woman commits adultery against her.
12 And if she divorces her husband and marries another man, she commits adultery.”

^ verse 11
He answered, “Anyone who divorces his wife and marries another woman commits adultery against her.

^ you think it means "put away" so lets pretend to prove you wrong
(“Anyone who "PUTS AWAY his wife and marries another woman commits adultery against her.)

Why does the man commit adultery if he marries another woman after "PUTTING AWAY" his wife?
^doesn't make any sense

Why do the disciples say its better not to marry if we can still divorce?
^doesn't make any sense

However if you believe and love the truth, these verses make perfect sense. They say its better not to marry because you cant divorce and remarry or marry a divorced woman without commiting adultery.

 

[The Revolting Man]

Just a quick reminder that we do not debate Torah keeping nor do we allow anyone to either advocate for or against it.

No one has done so yet but this conversation is touching on some issues that could lead there. Suffice it to say @Mr.M that some of your sparring partners feel like they’re fighting with one arm tied behind their back. I’ve been very impressed by their restraint.

Also, I have to admit that I’m flummoxed by this whole conversation. I thought Christ was clear, a certificate of divorce can only be issued for porneia. A man who divorces by either method for any other reason is in sin.