Why is it adultery for a man to divorce his wife AND marry

[Mark C]

Re: Why is it adultery for a man to divorce his wife AND mar

your argument goes somethng like this. there is no word for "adultery" in scripture. there is only na'aph in hebrew and moichao in greek. these words mean woman who breaks wedlock, which is different than our idea of adultery. therefore there is no word in scripture for the english concept of adultery. yet somehow we must invent a distinction between adultery #1 and adultery #2 even though it there is only one word for adultery in scripture. any extra-biblical ideas must not be allowed to define or influence what the bible text actually says.

Which makes the point, but you don't see it. When the English concept associated with a word is just plain WRONG* (as that for "adultery" is) more explanation is usually required in order to account for flaws in the language!

I have been polite, staylor, but your stubborn refusal to read for comprehension wears thin.

There is only one word in the Hebrew (isha) which is used for both "woman" and "wife". Are you so obtuse as to say that there is NO DIFFERENCE between those concepts, and to CONTINUE to ignore the fact that Scripture makes an important distinction BY CONTEXT?

To have discernment is not "poppycock". It is the difference between sucking milk and learning to eat meat.

Others here on BF have had differences of opinion concerning what the words He uses mean. That is not the same as ignoring that those words are THERE, however!

Mark C wrote:there is a difference between "putting away" a wife and performing the entire process described in Deuteronomy 24:1, reiterated in verse 3, and referenced repeatedly by the Savior.

poppycock. you want there to be a difference so you create it out of thin air. show me the exact hebrew or greek words that distinguish between these two terms.

Read Deuteronomy 24:1-3!!!!! Read it with a Hebrew concordance! Ask yourself ONE question:

Why does YHVH bother to specify a process if the mere act of "sending away" (shalach) was all there was to it?

Which will lead to the obvious follow-ups...


What is the purpose of the written witness (bill of divorcement) ?
h5612 ספר cepher ספר
h3748 כריתות kĕriythuwth כריתות

What if someone was to treacherously "put away" a wife WITHOUT DOING what YHVH specified!!!!!


Is it POSSIBLE for a man to "put away" a wife WITHOUT doing it right? How does a subsequent "husband" know whether or not a non-virgin isha is a true divorcee', a woman who was treacherously abandoned by her husband, or an adulteress who was "put away" for cause?!!!

jesus used ONE word nd he used it each time he spoke of marital separation. that's why i specifically asked for chapter and verse. you cannot provide it because it does not exist. deut. 24 says "shalach" which you admit means "put away". there is no word in hebrew or greek for ANOTHER kind of "put away". there is only "put away" (or "divorce" in some translations).

Because there's MARRIED (wife who "has a living husband") and NOT married!

A wife who is "put away" but who has not been properly given a "certificate of divorce" by her husband is STILL A WIFE!!!! Yahushua explained the vital difference!

Mark C wrote:To claim that two things which are NOT identical (like "putting away" and "divorce", for example) somehow are the same comes closer to being "a serious offense indeed" than trying to explain the differences between different concepts in differing languages.

excapt [sic] you have not been able to find a single word anywhere in hebrew or greek to support your distinction.

You confuse your inability to READ those words IN CONTEXT with thinking they are not there.



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* So is the concept of "marriage" - of course. The concepts of "mono-" and "poly-" forms of marriage ("-gamy") DO NOT EXIST in the Hebrew. It requires a Greek set of root words to even formulate a concept that YHVH does NOT MAKE.

Just as a woman who is "put away" improperly is STILL MARRIED. The key distinction is who He holds RESPONSIBLE for the adultery that follows!

 

[staylor]

Re: Why is it adultery for a man to divorce his wife AND mar

poppycock. you want there to be a difference so you create it out of thin air. show me the exact hebrew or greek words that distinguish between these two terms.

Read Deuteronomy 24:1-3!!!!! Read it with a Hebrew concordance! Ask yourself ONE question:

Why does YHVH bother to specify a process if the mere act of "sending away" (shalach) was all there was to it?

first, i notice you did not find a hebrew or greek word to support this illusion of "good putting away" vs "bad putting away".

second, sending away IS ALL THERE IS to sending away. there are several things being described in that passage, including MARRYING, FINDING, WRITING, HANDING, SENDING. i'm talking about the sending away, not everything else leading up to the sending away. look at each of these passages:

deut. 22:19 - and she shall be his wife; he may not "shalach" her all his days
deut. 22:29 - because he hath humbled her, he may not "shalah" her all his days
deut. 24:1 - give it in her hand, and "shalach" her out of his house
deut. 24:3 - and giveth it in her hand, and "shalach" her out of his house
deut 24:4 - her former husband, which "shalach" her, may not take her again to be his wife
isa. 50:1 - where is the bill of your mother's divorcement, whom i have "shalach"
isa. 50:1 - and for your transgressions was your mother "shalach"
jer. 3:8 - i had "shalach" her, and given her a bill of divorce
mal. 2:16 - the god of isreal, saith that he hateth "shalach", for one covereth violence with his garment

same word every verse. same meaning every verse. you say that the problem is one of language, yet we can read the original languages and see for ourselves that there is no problem in the hebrew text, only in your english interpretation.

what you seem to be trying to do is making up a new word to identify the "process" of marrying, finding, writing, handing and sending. then you want to call this "process" - DIVORCE. that's poppycock. if anything, the writing is the "divorce", never the sending. and there is no scriptural support for this "process" word you're insisting on.

you're making this much harder than it needs to be. jesus says if a man PUTS AWAY and remarries, he commits adultery. if a woman PUTS AWAY and remarries, she commits adultery. if another man marries a PUT AWAY woman, he commits adultery. never does jesus speak of a "process" by which "putting away" becomes something different. there is only ONE "putting away" and it is always the same word, the same term, the same meaning, the same consequences. otherwise you ARE adding to his word by trying to create a distinction where none exists in the original text.

 

[Sirena]

Re: Why is it adultery for a man to divorce his wife AND mar

Hi Everyone,
I was reading this and just had to say that though I am not as well studied as Mark C and staylor I think that the argument is a little silly due to the fact that culture, time era and common sense is partly being forgotten. In those days people did not have a piece of paper saying they were married, no requirement for it. They did however have a paper to prove divorce that was considered a part of the putting away. The reason for the putting away could have been anything just as it is done now. The word says Moses said that if a man put a wife away that he should give her a letter of divorce/putting away. I do not see any difference between divorce and putting away, rather it is the same and he was letting it be know not to leave out the proof of it.
Sometimes when we are upset or angry we forget what is right and wrong and decide our way should be acceptable to both man and God but this is not so and many times we have to be reminded of this. The people he was addressing in those verses had personal opinions based on laws and traditions but were still wrong so were reminded of the truth. The lord said "But I say unto you, That whosoever shall put away his wife, saving for the cause of fornication, causeth her to commit adultery: and whosoever shall marry her that is divorced committeth adultery". I personally think divorce/putting away is very wrong for anything other than fornication.
As for the word in Hebrew and in Greek compared to the English, they are like any other words that try to describe something. They were to describe the entire putting away so there was no need to have another word to describe a part of it separately. Today we have many dictionaries and encyclopedias to tell us the full definition of words but very few people know all of them and almost none can tell you the full definition of any word without something like a dict. or ency. to tell them. Most words can also have different meanings depending on context, language and your location on this planet.
All things being said we should not try to fit Gods word into our box of understanding but fit ours into his by learn his word the best we can and all the things needed to understand it fully.
Hope no one was offended by what I have said, just felt the need to speak my understanding of it.

Matthew 5:31,32 (King James Version)
Matthew 19:7, 8, 9 (King James Version)

 

[staylor]

Re: Why is it adultery for a man to divorce his wife AND mar

What is the purpose of the written witness (bill of divorcement) ?
h5612 ספר cepher ספר
h3748 כריתות kĕriythuwth כריתות

the bill was his declaration to the branch that she has been "cut off" from her vine. it was the written punishment for her betrayal.

What if someone was to treacherously "put away" a wife WITHOUT DOING what YHVH specified!!!!!

she's just as "sent away" in both cases. she doesn't end up MORE sent away and she doesn't end up LESS sent away. she is still cut off and sent away.

Is it POSSIBLE for a man to "put away" a wife WITHOUT doing it right? How does a subsequent "husband" know whether or not a non-virgin isha is a true divorcee', a woman who was treacherously abandoned by her husband, or an adulteress who was "put away" for cause?!!!

without doing it RIGHT? how could anyone do it WRONG? the subsequent adulterer would know if her usband is still alive. that's exactly what paul and jesus
addressed. no bill can change that fact, which is why paul and jesus didn't say "except for a bill of divorcement". i'm not going to shove words into jesus's mouth that he didn't say.

jesus used ONE word nd he used it each time he spoke of marital separation. that's why i specifically asked for chapter and verse. you cannot provide it because it does not exist. deut. 24 says "shalach" which you admit means "put away". there is no word in hebrew or greek for ANOTHER kind of "put away". there is only "put away" (or "divorce" in some translations).

Because there's MARRIED (wife who "has a living husband") and NOT married!

your understanding is opposed to proper exegesis. the only way she doesn't have a living husband is when she is a WIDOW, not a divorcee. didn't you know that the reason it's adultery is because she now has two living husbands? the new second husband is an adulterer because she already has a husband. otherwise all paul needed to say was to obtain a bill of divorcement. instead paul said while he LIVES. jesus said PUT AWAY and never mentions a better form of putting away with a bill first. you're really stretching all credibility.

A wife who is "put away" but who has not been properly given a "certificate of divorce" by her husband is STILL A WIFE!!!! Yahushua explained the vital difference!

fabrication and speculation. new test chapter and verse please.

 

[staylor]

Re: Why is it adultery for a man to divorce his wife AND mar

Hi Everyone,
I was reading this and just had to say that though I am not as well studied as Mark C and staylor I think that the argument is a little silly due to the fact that culture, time era and common sense is partly being forgotten. In those days people did not have a piece of paper saying they were married, no requirement for it. They did however have a paper to prove divorce that was considered a part of the putting away. The reason for the putting away could have been anything just as it is done now. The word says Moses said that if a man put a wife away that he should give her a letter of divorce/putting away. I do not see any difference between divorce and putting away, rather it is the same and he was letting it be know not to leave out the proof of it.

i agree it can get silly reading these kinds of assembled arguments but sometimes others can be helped by showing them what scripture actyually says instead of having it interpreted for them to mean the opposite of what it says. it's not like anyone in ancient israel wouldn't have known to write a bill of divorcement. both camps on divorce knew THAT much. their only question was what JUSTIFIED it, and that is exactly what jesus answered. you are correct that putting away and divorce are exactly the same word (shalach in hebrew, apolou in greek) with the exact same meaning. it's just that our modern idea of "divorce" tends to cloud the issue so i prefer "put away".

 

[Mark C]

Re: Why is it adultery for a man to divorce his wife AND mar

Does the concept of "animal" include the specific concept of the animal called a "horse", staylor?

I note as well that you tend to ignore lots of other words in the text, even that which you quoted. When God uses the conjunction "and" - there is a reason for it.

I'm not making it "harder" than it needs to be. I'm correcting gross error, because you have it WRONG. And the difference affects lives.

...then you want to call this "process" - DIVORCE.

No - I most certainly do NOT. I do not choose to call the perfectly legitimate act of a man taking a second wife in marriage "polygamy", either! Unfortunately, we live in a culture so ignorant of His Word that it is sometimes necessary not only to correct the LANGUAGE used to describe something wrongly, but the thought process behind it as well. You simply refuse to think about the distinction.

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Sirena, thanks for the injection of some sanity. Your points are well-taken.

Ultimately, the key point is to remember that there is a difference as well between what we have done, or suffered, in the past -- rightly or wrongly -- and what we can CHOOSE to do in the future.

The discussion about lawful separation and divorce is important because there are those who try to teach, WRONGLY, that a woman who is "put away" can NEVER remarry, so long as the one who she first became "one flesh" with still lives.

This is just plain WRONG, and results in incredible evil.

But that is not at ALL the same as saying that those of us men who have become husbands should ever, in the future, as Believers in the Elohim of Abraham, Isaac, and Yakov, and followers of our Savior -- EVER 'put away' our wives! We are told we should NOT do so (I Cor. 7:11b, among several).

And it is NOT the same as saying that a woman who HAS been put away cannot remarry while that now FORMER husband "still lives". But any man who does so should confirm that she has a lawful "certificate of divorce", just as Scripture so correctly requires. (See staylor's list above, and note what he does not: YHVH makes a distinction, by ASKING about it.)

In those [Biblical time] days people did not have a piece of paper saying they were married, no requirement for it. They did however have a paper to prove divorce that was considered a part of the putting away.

Correct, although we still don't need a piece of paper saying we're 'married'. YHVH's Word is sufficient still. You are right, both history and the Scripture make it clear that the "get" or certificate was important. It still is, of course.

But please think about the rest this way, Sirena. (And I will try to be delicate, in an open, family-friendly forum. Yes, this is "Mark's interpretation" of what the whole of Scripture says, in context. Be "like the Bereans", and search it out for yourself.)

An unmarried woman ("bethulah", virgin, maiden) generally had proof of her status; no piece of paper or other witness was necessary. (This in fact is a testament to the sealing of the marriage Covenant, like other covenants, "in blood".) But a widow, adulteress, "put away" isha, or even a harlot had no way to verify that she was eligible for remarriage. She alone is only ONE "witness", whereas Scripture says to let everything be confirmed in the mouths of "two" (or three, or 'more') witnesses. Her "certificate of divorce" is the second witness that she MAY be remarried, and may come under the covering of a loving husband.

Don't ever let anyone wrongly tell you otherwise.

Blessings,
Mark

 

[welltan]

Re: Why is it adultery for a man to divorce his wife AND mar

This topic often comes up and is often locked.

Passionately trying to convince someone they are wrong rarely will convince anyone of anything. Attitude is testimony and testimony based in Christ’s love is food for the soul. Plant rather then hammer. Water rather than drown-out. Wait for the harvest rather than dig up the roots to see if they are the correct roots. If Christ can leave the tares (weeds) then so can we for a while.

Define terms. Marriage and divorce do not mean the same thing for those that insist on a legal basis, those that accept only a scripture reference and those that include that God joins together and can part asunder.

If when defining terms you find that someone labels a relationship differently then you, work from there. Conviction from God is better then convincing.