Meat Times of the End?

[tps26]

I just don’t get the point of living a lifestyle that is anything short of Hedonism if everything is already written in stone.
I might as well drink to excess if it’s already been decreed.
I have no right to get upset if someone rapes a wife or two of mine because Yah already decided it was going to happen, so it’s not that that guy is really all that responsible.
In fact, why does He condemn me for lusting after a married woman if He already chose that path for me?

Those are great questions, in fact, you are exactly on track because your theology just came to the same intersection as Paul's:
"What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin that grace may abound?"
Romans 6:1

The answer:
"By no means! How can we who died to sin still live in it?"
Romans 6:2

The answer to the rhetorical question in Romans 6:2 is that you can't live in sin if you are dead to it.

It's not that you might as well drink in excess if it’s already been decreed, but that you will drink in excess if it has been decreed.
"For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh. For I have the desire to do what is right, but not the ability to carry it out. For I do not do the good I want, but the evil I do not want is what I keep on doing. Now if I do what I do not want, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells within me.
...Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, I myself serve the law of God with my mind, but with my flesh I serve the law of sin."
Romans 7:18‭-‬20‭, ‬25

Here is the whole point of the knowledge of good and evil. This life is a lesson in contrast so that we can know what good is. Without evil we would never truly know good. God doesn't make the evil last forever, because once the lesson is learned, its purpose is complete. Therefore sin results in mortality. God has the power to justify all, because all comes from Him. Justification is simply God declaring that when you "messed up" such-and-such His purpose for it was really this or that. If your miss is declared a hit, how can there be condemnation against you? Putting Jesus on a cross looks like a huge failure, but it's not. If God declares Jesus a success in dieing, he will do so for you too.

In fact, why does He condemn me for lusting after a married woman if He already chose that path for me?

Does he condemn you? No. "There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus."
Romans 8:1

I have no right to get upset if someone rapes a wife or two of mine because Yah already decided it was going to happen, so it’s not that that guy is really all that responsible.

You would be right to be upset. Just because God creates evil does not make it good. Calling evil good is to miss the lesson of contrast. This hypothetical man is responsible in the relative, God is responsible in the absolute. The consequences he then faces in the relative (the law of the land, and possibly vengeance from you) will differ than the consequences he faces in the absolute (justification (yeah, grace seems unfair, be glad it is)). Both consequences, absolutely speaking, come from God. It's only confusing when we attempt to mix the things from the human perspective with the things absolute at the level of the Creator. The only reason it comes up is because God has allowed us to share his top-down view in several passages in the Bible.

When it comes to times of the end, partitioning what is revealed and from what perspective (ours vs. God's) will yield clarity.

 

[steve]

Those are great questions, in fact, you are exactly on track because your theology just came to the same intersection as Paul's:
"What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin that grace may abound?"
Romans 6:1

The answer:
"By no means! How can we who died to sin still live in it?"
Romans 6:2

The answer to the rhetorical question in Romans 6:2 is that you can't live in sin if you are dead to it.

It's not that you might as well drink in excess if it’s already been decreed, but that you will drink in excess if it has been decreed.
"For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh. For I have the desire to do what is right, but not the ability to carry it out. For I do not do the good I want, but the evil I do not want is what I keep on doing. Now if I do what I do not want, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells within me.
...Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, I myself serve the law of God with my mind, but with my flesh I serve the law of sin."
Romans 7:18‭-‬20‭, ‬25

Here is the whole point of the knowledge of good and evil. This life is a lesson in contrast so that we can know what good is. Without evil we would never truly know good. God doesn't make the evil last forever, because once the lesson is learned, its purpose is complete. Therefore sin results in mortality. God has the power to justify all, because all comes from Him. Justification is simply God declaring that when you "messed up" such-and-such His purpose for it was really this or that. If your miss is declared a hit, how can there be condemnation against you? Putting Jesus on a cross looks like a huge failure, but it's not. If God declares Jesus a success in dieing, he will do so for you too.



Does he condemn you? No. "There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus."
Romans 8:1



You would be right to be upset. Just because God creates evil does not make it good. Calling evil good is to miss the lesson of contrast. This hypothetical man is responsible in the relative, God is responsible in the absolute. The consequences he then faces in the relative (the law of the land, and possibly vengeance from you) will differ than the consequences he faces in the absolute (justification (yeah, grace seems unfair, be glad it is)). Both consequences, absolutely speaking, come from God. It's only confusing when we attempt to mix the things from the human perspective with the things absolute at the level of the Creator. The only reason it comes up is because God has allowed us to share his top-down view in several passages in the Bible.

When it comes to times of the end, partitioning what is revealed and from what perspective (ours vs. God's) will yield clarity.

I am a simple man and you are way over my head.
To me your explanation is overly complicated and oversimplified at the same time, but that’s just me.
Please forgive me if I choose to muddle on with my present understanding.

 

[Cap]

Those are great questions, in fact, you are exactly on track because your theology just came to the same intersection as Paul's:
"What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin that grace may abound?"
Romans 6:1

The answer:
"By no means! How can we who died to sin still live in it?"
Romans 6:2

The answer to the rhetorical question in Romans 6:2 is that you can't live in sin if you are dead to it.

It's not that you might as well drink in excess if it’s already been decreed, but that you will drink in excess if it has been decreed.
"For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh. For I have the desire to do what is right, but not the ability to carry it out. For I do not do the good I want, but the evil I do not want is what I keep on doing. Now if I do what I do not want, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells within me.
...Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, I myself serve the law of God with my mind, but with my flesh I serve the law of sin."
Romans 7:18‭-‬20‭, ‬25

Here is the whole point of the knowledge of good and evil. This life is a lesson in contrast so that we can know what good is. Without evil we would never truly know good. God doesn't make the evil last forever, because once the lesson is learned, its purpose is complete. Therefore sin results in mortality. God has the power to justify all, because all comes from Him. Justification is simply God declaring that when you "messed up" such-and-such His purpose for it was really this or that. If your miss is declared a hit, how can there be condemnation against you? Putting Jesus on a cross looks like a huge failure, but it's not. If God declares Jesus a success in dieing, he will do so for you too.



Does he condemn you? No. "There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus."
Romans 8:1



You would be right to be upset. Just because God creates evil does not make it good. Calling evil good is to miss the lesson of contrast. This hypothetical man is responsible in the relative, God is responsible in the absolute. The consequences he then faces in the relative (the law of the land, and possibly vengeance from you) will differ than the consequences he faces in the absolute (justification (yeah, grace seems unfair, be glad it is)). Both consequences, absolutely speaking, come from God. It's only confusing when we attempt to mix the things from the human perspective with the things absolute at the level of the Creator. The only reason it comes up is because God has allowed us to share his top-down view in several passages in the Bible.

When it comes to times of the end, partitioning what is revealed and from what perspective (ours vs. God's) will yield clarity.

I like you. And some of us understand what you are saying, even though it's complicated.

 

[tps26]

Sorry, sometimes my thoughts jump quickly across concepts and I don't lay a foundation to tie it together.

I tend to think it appears complicated because religious people have made it so, and uncomplicating complicated things is more difficult than learning them without the interwoven man-made traditions, sentiments, and extra-biblical catch phrases that we drown in.

 

[steve]

Matthew 7:22-24 (KJV) 22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. 24 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:

 

[FollowingHim]

Just for grins and giggles, what would be the minimum standards to qualify here?
Does asking Jesus to save you qualify as loving Yah and being called?
Or is more required?

That's all I believe is required. Nothing more.

What if someone says the "sinners prayer", but immediately goes back to a life of depravity, never speaks of Christianity, never meets with other Christians, never reads scripture. Just repeated a few words once. Do you believe they are saved?

 

[FollowingHim]

I believe that everything has already been determined by God to the smallest and finest detail. We get to live an adventure because we don't know how each day goes until it is over. But the future is just as set in stone as the past, and this should be a comfort to you.

I think the best way to understand all this is to look at it from two different perspectives.

From God's perspective, much is predetermined. I won't claim "everything" as absolute statements are risky, but certainly enough is predestined for Him to have chosen who will follow him, hence why His people are called the "elect". He chooses us, we don't choose Him. He created everything, and the way He set it all up, everything will move to a predetermined and expected outcome. Yes, we have free will - but He knows precisely what circumstances we will be facing, He made our will, and He knows what we will decide. He is so knowledgable that even our freedom is entirely predictable to Him.

From our perspective though, we do not know the future. We do not know who is chosen. Every temptation, every decision we face is completely real. We truly have free will to choose one way or the other, and will be judged for our choices (unless forgiven). The fact that God already knows what we will choose doesn't have any relevance to us in the moment.

I liken this to how we raise children. If you put a child into a tempting situation (e.g. "your birthday present is in that cupboard, don't look"), the temptation is completely real. They have free will whether to obey or disobey.
On the other hand, if you helped to raise the children, you have raised them in a way that predetermines the outcome. You are likely to be able to predict with a high level of certainty whether they will resist the temptation or not. You might know that your children would resist but your neighbour's kids would give in, for instance. That knowledge does not however affect the child's in-the-moment decision.
God knows us perfectly, so He doesn't just "predict with a high level of certainty" what we will choose. He knows it with 100% certainty. And he has "raised us" through the circumstances He placed us in in order to achieve that result.

The only way I think this knowledge is really relevant to us is that it clarifies evangelism. It is not our role to persuade people to follow God through our human logic. Rather, there are people who God is calling - sometimes the most unlikely people. We are to find and help those people, who WILL be saved through the ministry we and others do with them, because God has predetermined that they will. This is why it is not pointless to talk to the least Godly people in society about God, however hopeless the situation may seem to us logically. They may be the very ones He has chosen.

 

[Cap]

What if someone says the "sinners prayer", but immediately goes back to a life of depravity, never speaks of Christianity, never meets with other Christians, never reads scripture. Just repeated a few words once. Do you believe they are saved?

The question did not specify the sincerity level.

 

[Cap]

I think the best way to understand all this is to look at it from two different perspectives.

From God's perspective, much is predetermined. I won't claim "everything" as absolute statements are risky, but certainly enough is predestined for Him to have chosen who will follow him, hence why His people are called the "elect". He chooses us, we don't choose Him. He created everything, and the way He set it all up, everything will move to a predetermined and expected outcome. Yes, we have free will - but He knows precisely what circumstances we will be facing, He made our will, and He knows what we will decide. He is so knowledgable that even our freedom is entirely predictable to Him.

From our perspective though, we do not know the future. We do not know who is chosen. Every temptation, every decision we face is completely real. We truly have free will to choose one way or the other, and will be judged for our choices (unless forgiven). The fact that God already knows what we will choose doesn't have any relevance to us in the moment.

I liken this to how we raise children. If you put a child into a tempting situation (e.g. "your birthday present is in that cupboard, don't look"), the temptation is completely real. They have free will whether to obey or disobey.
On the other hand, if you helped to raise the children, you have raised them in a way that predetermines the outcome. You are likely to be able to predict with a high level of certainty whether they will resist the temptation or not. You might know that your children would resist but your neighbour's kids would give in, for instance. That knowledge does not however affect the child's in-the-moment decision.
God knows us perfectly, so He doesn't just "predict with a high level of certainty" what we will choose. He knows it with 100% certainty. And he has "raised us" through the circumstances He placed us in in order to achieve that result.

The only way I think this knowledge is really relevant to us is that it clarifies evangelism. It is not our role to persuade people to follow God through our human logic. Rather, there are people who God is calling - sometimes the most unlikely people. We are to find and help those people, who WILL be saved through the ministry we and others do with them, because God has predetermined that they will. This is why it is not pointless to talk to the least Godly people in society about God, however hopeless the situation may seem to us logically. They may be the very ones He has chosen.

I agree. I think I said this some other place.

 

[FollowingHim]

The question did not specify the sincerity level.

True, I added a new element there that complicated the question. I'll rephrase.

What if someone in all seriousness says the "sinners prayer", truly intending to follow God, but immediately goes back to a life of depravity, never speaks of Christianity, never meets with other Christians, never reads scripture. Just said the words. Do you believe they are saved?

The question is whether a simple affirmation of belief is all that is required, or whether someone needs to actually repent, ie honestly attempt to change their ways, to be saved. Is salvation by grace alone and granted to the person who sincerely professes belief, or by grace alone but granted to the person who sincerely repents of their sins and professes belief. It is about the role of repentance in salvation.

 

[coupleinaz]

"He made our will, and He knows what we will decide." If that were true then why worry about it? If the "Saved" are predetermined then why Minister to anyone? If He has decided who is already Saved then where is He saving any new Souls? It`s more likely that He has setup a system for us to use our free will to be Saved. The Events may be predetermined but where we finish our time here is up to us.

 

[Cap]

True, I added a new element there that complicated the question. I'll rephrase.

What if someone in all seriousness says the "sinners prayer", truly intending to follow God, but immediately goes back to a life of depravity, never speaks of Christianity, never meets with other Christians, never reads scripture. Just said the words. Do you believe they are saved?

The question is whether a simple affirmation of belief is all that is required, or whether someone needs to actually repent, ie honestly attempt to change their ways, to be saved. Is salvation by grace alone and granted to the person who sincerely professes belief, or by grace alone but granted to the person who sincerely repents of their sins and professes belief. It is about the role of repentance in salvation.

Romans 10:9
If you declare with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

Doesn't say anything about repentance. But, logical thinking would suggest that once a soul comes to a true belief, the Holy Spirit takes over and leads an individual to the required repentance God requires for that individual.

 

[FollowingHim]

Romans 10:9
If you declare with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

Doesn't say anything about repentance. But, logical thinking would suggest that once a soul comes to a true belief, the Holy Spirit takes over and leads an individual to the required repentance God requires for that individual.

Agreed.

Logical thinking would then go a step further and say that if there was no repentance, then the original profession of Jesus as "Lord" cannot have been truly sincere. Because if He is Lord / Master, we will obey Him and at least attempt to turn from our sins. So if we do not, then He is not our Lord.

The sincerity of the confession is later evidenced in a changed life.

 

[FollowingHim]

"He made our will, and He knows what we will decide." If that were true then why worry about it? If the "Saved" are predetermined then why Minister to anyone? If He has decided who is already Saved then where is He saving any new Souls? It`s more likely that He has setup a system for us to use our free will to be Saved. The Events may be predetermined but where we finish our time here is up to us.

Because we are commanded to minister to them. It's that simple.

And God does work through us to implement His will. Yes they are chosen to follow Him - but He may have also chosen you to be the tool He will use to bring them to Him. And it is our duty to obey.

Esther 4:13-14
"Then Mordecai commanded to answer Esther, Think not with thyself that thou shalt escape in the king's house, more than all the Jews.
For if thou altogether holdest thy peace at this time, then shall there enlargement and deliverance arise to the Jews from another place; but thou and thy father's house shall be destroyed: and who knoweth whether thou art come to the kingdom for such a time as this?"

God's will for them will be achieved one way or another, but we will be judged for our obedience to our Lord.

 

[steve]

.Yah’s will is that none should perish, but so many do.

Some theology just doesn’t match reality.

 

[tps26]

Since we've centered on this subject, think for a moment about your will and God's will. Which will is stronger? A will is only as free as the power to execute it. Who is more powerful, you or God? If your wills are in opposition, God's will happens. If your wills are in alignment, God's will happens. God's will always happens. This is another way of saying that you don't have a free will. It only appears "free" when it aligns exactly with His. Otherwise what you intend does not occur, ever.

In order to realize this, you will need to come to grips with the fact that sometimes God's will is for things to be broken and destroyed. He mars His clay in the process of making usuable vessels.
God does all this without sinning, because sinning is missing the mark, and when God creates evil it is a bullseye – it always accomplishes its intended purpose.

There is no grey area where God's will is not operating that we have freedom to manuever in. God is operating ALL in accord with the council of His will.

God makes each sparrow fall to the ground at its designated time. Are not two sparrows sold for a penny? And not one of them will fall to the ground apart from your Father.
Matthew 10:29

Every percentage of free will you assert you have is a percentage you assert God does not have.

 

[tps26]

.Yah’s will is that none should perish, but so many do.

Some theology just doesn’t match reality.

Consider,

For to this end we toil and strive, because we have our hope set on the living God, who is the Savior of all people, especially (note: not exclusively) of those who believe.
1 Timothy 4:10

That's theology and reality.
If His will is that none should perish, then it will be so.

 

[steve]

Consider,

For to this end we toil and strive, because we have our hope set on the living God, who is the Savior of all people, especially (note: not exclusively) of those who believe.
1 Timothy 4:10

That's theology and reality.
If His will is that none should perish, then it will be so.

Neither of us is going to convince the other with our cherry-picked verses.

To any who have an open mind, the Millennium is when Yah’s will actually starts being asserted.
Look around you at what is going on, could you possibly insult Yah more than by claiming that His will reigns?

 

[tps26]

.Yah’s will is that none should perish, but so many do.

Some theology just doesn’t match reality.

You may have an underlying assumption that the wages of sin is something other than death.
I can assure you with confidence that the question we should be asking is the one asked by Job: "If a man dies, shall he live again? (Job 14:14)

What do we need saving from? It has to be something real. If it's not real, then we don't need saving from it. What is real in your life that you need saving from, that you can't escape? Sin and death. What did Christ become for us and take away like the goat in Leviticus 16? Sin. That takes care of the first problem for everyone. What did God do to Jesus when he died alongside us? He raised him from the dead. Christ is our guarantee of ressurrection because God raised him. So all die in Adam, and in Christ all are made alive. It's the exact same all. The question is not who is saved from sin and death, but when? Well, there are different times in God's plan, and that's where the "especially of believers" part of 1 Timothy 4:10 fits in. There is the millennium, the new heavens and new earth, and the consummation of all. Depending on when you are ressurrected is when you are saved from death. We are saved through faith now (i.e. it's an assurance of things hoped for) because our faith makes it real to us now even though we still face death in our future; in faith we see that our ressurrection following death is as good as done.

Eventually death itself will be abolished at the consummation of all things, "The last enemy to be destroyed is death." 1 Corinthians 15:26
What happens to dead people when there is no more death?
In Adam all die, in Christ all are made alive.

 

[tps26]

Neither of us is going to convince the other with our cherry-picked verses.

To any who have an open mind, the Millennium is when Yah’s will actually starts being asserted.
Look around you at what is going on, could you possibly insult Yah more than by claiming that His will reigns?

You're good with me brother, I'm not out to convince anyone. I just enjoy sharing what I know.
And I love finding out when I am wrong about something.

I am willing to risk insulting God by asserting his sovereignty. His grace is sufficient for me. I won't wear out God's grace.