General The Solomon discussion

[steve]

Actually, the 700 wives were the political gifts, the 300 concubines were not. This is stated very clearly in 1 Kings 11:3 - the 700 wives are described as "princesses" or "daughters of nobility" - in other words, they were the ones given as gifts by kings and noblemen in order to seal alliances with Solomon. The Hebrew word does not refer only to the daughters of kings, but the daughters of any nobility, even "lesser rulers". Even these were wives, not concubines. And the verse specifically states that the "wives" turned away his heart - but not the concubines. The concubines were different.

I take the concubines to be the girls he took on because he actually liked them personally, or because he wanted them as domestic servants to take care of practical matters around the palace. Remember that when David fled his palace, he left concubines to run it - they were his domestic servants, and presumably served the same role for Solomon. So they were selected based on their personal traits - their attractiveness to Solomon or their qualifications for a particular job. They were probably mostly local Israelite girls who had been spotted by Solomon or his officials, though obviously he may have purchased some as slaves from elsewhere. But probably most were local, which is why they were not the ones who led him astray.

It’s all possible, but it’s all assumptions
Assumptions that condemn a man without proof.

 

[Asforme&myhouse]

Obviously the link is flawed as Deuteronomy and Leviticus indubitably state that the sacrifice to Molech was a mans seed (children) passing thru the fires 4-500 years prior to Solomon.

To think that Solomon was not at the least a passive participant is to ignore 1 King’s 11:4-8

For it came to pass, when Solomon was old, that his wives turned away his heart after other gods: and his heart was not perfect with the LORD his God, as was the heart of David his father.
For Solomon went after Ashtoreth the goddess of the Zidonians, and after Milcom [another name for Molech] the abomination of the Ammonites.
And Solomon did evil in the sight of the LORD, and went not fully after the LORD, as did David his father.
Then did Solomon build an high place for Chemosh, the abomination of Moab, in the hill that is before Jerusalem, and for Molech, the abomination of the children of Ammon.
And likewise did he for all his strange wives, which burnt incense and sacrificed unto their gods

Solomon went after these strange gods and goddesses that demanded child/baby sacrifices. And provided opportunity and locations to facilitate his foreign wives to “worship” these foreign gods publicly.

I get that you’d rather not believe that Solomon or any man would do something like this either as an active or passive participant. But you are preferring a fallible assumption over multiple scriptures to the contrary

Solomon may have sacrificed children, but I think something that is being overlooked here is that Solomon’s heart was turned away “when Solomon was old”. Unless he only started having children in his old age, Solomon’s children would have been adults by that time.

 

[Cap]

Solomon may have sacrificed children, but I think something that is being overlooked here is that Solomon’s heart was turned away “when Solomon was old”. Unless he only started having children in his old age, Solomon’s children would have been adults by that time.

You assume old as being, well old, Solomon was 12 years old when he became King so old to a teenager is 30 God forbid.

 

[Cap]

I agree it is possible that Solomon sacrificed children to Moloch - but find it difficult to believe that he could do that and still be chosen by God to author three books of the Bible. So I find it unlikely, but possible.

But even if he did sacrifice children to Moloch, he would not sacrifice all children to Moloch. People sacrificed to gods wanting to get some benefit from it - and an infant sacrifice is essentially a fertility offering, giving up one child in the expectation of receiving many more (or receiving some other benefit). If people sacrificed all their children, then the entire civilisation would die. So even the most ardent idol-worshipper would only sacrifice a portion of their children.

This means that this cannot be the reason for Solomon not having children mentioned in scripture. The idea that he sacrificed all of them, so none of them survived, is not realistic as nobody would do that. A very large number would not have been sacrificed. So either way, whether he was involved in infant sacrifice or not, the only logical explanations for him having few children mentioned are either:
1) He had very few children (e.g. due to personal infertility), or
2) His children just aren't mentioned.

The lack of children's names provides no evidence for infant sacrifice, because infant sacrifice would not have resulted in a complete lack of children's names. So it's circular reasoning.

These verses (below) certainly do seriously imply that something happened to at least some of his children and could further be implied that the reason Solomon's children aren't included is because he was eventually rejected, just as Saul was.

1 kings 11 Then did Solomon build a high place for Chemosh the detestation of Moab, in the mount that is before Jerusalem, and for Molech the detestation of the children of Ammon. 8 And so did he for all his foreign wives, who offered and sacrificed unto their gods. 9 And the Lord was angry with Solomon, because his heart was turned away from the Lord, the God of Israel, who had appeared unto him twice, 10 and had commanded him concerning this thing, that he should not go after other gods; but he kept not that which the Lord commanded.

So think about it, God appears to you twice to tell you your wrong, you don't change, what's a god to do?

And another thing, I think something went on with the woman that kept David warm in his old age, between Solomon and Adonijah, after David's death. Could she be the same woman in the song of songs!

 

[Asforme&myhouse]

You assume old as being, well old, Solomon was 12 years old when he became King so old to a teenager is 30 God forbid.

It would appear that Solomon’s son Rehoboam was one year old when Solomon began to reign. If Solomon was 12 years old when he became king then he would have been around 10 years old when he knocked up Naamah. Not impossible, I guess, but seems rather unlikely. If he was siring children at the age of ten, they would be in their mid teens and presumably having their own kids by the time Solomon hit 30.

Rehoboam was was 41 when he began to reign so I doubt that the text is calling 30 years old, “old”.

 

[Cap]

It would appear that Solomon’s son Rehoboam was one year old when Solomon began to reign.

Can you show were this is? All I can find is that Solomon's age when He became king is basically unknown, and looking further the age of 12 is from a traditional understanding. Not to be accepted as fact of course, but still no one seems to be able to set an exact age.

 

[FollowingHim]

It’s all possible, but it’s all assumptions
Assumptions that condemn a man without proof.

My assumptions don't condemn him. On the contrary, I am showing that the assumptions others are making, that condemn a man without proof, are invalid as other assumptions are at least equally likely and would imply no such condemnation. I agree with your perspective.

 

[steve]

My assumptions don't condemn him.

Your assumptions describe a condemnable man.
By my calculations he married something like 17 wives per year over his 40 year reign.
On top of that you want me to believe that he was picking up 300 local girls that caught his eye? Not to mention the virgins without number?
My friend, you describe a despicably selfish male.

We just don’t have the full story, but he is innocent until proven guilty.

 

[Cap]

My friend, you describe a despicably selfish male.
.

I think the story of Solomon is not what we have been lead to believe. I believe Solomon had some issues. Everything seems odd about his life. Even his temple dedication. His life does seem like a self obsorbed individual.

 

[Asforme&myhouse]

Can you show were this is? All I can find is that Solomon's age when He became king is basically unknown, and looking further the age of 12 is from a traditional understanding. Not to be accepted as fact of course, but still no one seems to be able to set an exact age.

This is the info i got

1 Kings 11:42 KJV
[42] And the time that Solomon reigned in Jerusalem over all Israel was forty years.


1 Kings 14:21 KJV
[21] And Rehoboam the son of Solomon reigned in Judah. Rehoboam was forty and one years old when he began to reign, and he reigned seventeen years in Jerusalem, the city which the Lord did choose out of all the tribes of Israel, to put his name there. And his mother's name was Naamah an Ammonitess.

 

[steve]

Would you believe that King Solomon mined copper on the north shore of one of the Great Lakes, iron in South America?
Brazil is Hebrew for iron.
Not to mention that he built a Bessemer smelter thousands of years before Henry figured it out.

 

[Verifyveritas76]

There’s also a stone with the Decalogue on it in Los Lunas New Mexico that dates to the time of Solomon.

 

[Cap]

This is the info i got

1 Kings 11:42 KJV
[42] And the time that Solomon reigned in Jerusalem over all Israel was forty years.


1 Kings 14:21 KJV
[21] And Rehoboam the son of Solomon reigned in Judah. Rehoboam was forty and one years old when he began to reign, and he reigned seventeen years in Jerusalem, the city which the Lord did choose out of all the tribes of Israel, to put his name there. And his mother's name was Naamah an Ammonitess.

It could be taken that rehoboam was 41.

In any event, still doesn't really say how old Solomon was even he was born.

 

[Asforme&myhouse]

It could be taken that rehoboam was 41.

In any event, still doesn't really say how old Solomon was even he was born.

No, you are right, it doesn’t give Solomon’s age when Rehoboam was born, but it does make it unlikely that Solomon was 12 when he began his reign. It is possible that he could have become king at 12, but is there any precedent for royal Hebrew boys to be married and fathering children at 10 years old? Not saying it couldn’t be, just that it seems unlikely.

 

[Cap]

No, you are right, it doesn’t give Solomon’s age when Rehoboam was born, but it does make it unlikely that Solomon was 12 when he began his reign. It is possible that he could have become king at 12, but is there any precedent for royal Hebrew boys to be married and fathering children at 10 years old? Not saying it couldn’t be, just that it seems unlikely.

I'm not sure at all. There are many strange things about Solomon. But I am starting to believe he is not the saint he is made out to be.

 

[FollowingHim]

Your assumptions describe a condemnable man.
By my calculations he married something like 17 wives per year over his 40 year reign.
On top of that you want me to believe that he was picking up 300 local girls that caught his eye? Not to mention the virgins without number?
My friend, you describe a despicably selfish male.

We just don’t have the full story, but he is innocent until proven guilty.

I don't see the 300 concubines as condemnable in any way. You're describing a rich king with multiple palaces and estates, needing a lot of staff. Several hundred female staff is not at all unreasonable. Now, we all know how wealthy men are prone to end up sleeping with their secretaries - when you've got a woman working for you who is attractive, obedient, and you spend a lot of time with, things are very tempting. Personally, I think Solomon just decided to avoid any risk of sexual impropriety by simply making every single one of his female domestic staff a concubine. That way it really didn't matter what he was tempted to do with them, it was all ok... Probably there were many of them he never slept with at all, but they were still concubines, so that he had the freedom to choose from any of them.

So some would have been chosen because they were good cooks, others because they were good cleaners, and so forth, while a few (likely the minority, but a few) would have been chosen simply because Solomon liked the look of them. Which is also completely ok. But I highly doubt he personally chose 300 hot women as his concubines, I expect the majority were recruited by his staff as servants, with the job description being "cook & concubine". He probably met them first when he saw them doing their job, after they'd already been hired.

But this is all assumption. As is whatever you think about him. Because neither of us really know.

I think that you are comfortable with a story about Solomon that you've imagined in your head, and I'm comfortable with a story I've imagined in mine, but you're not comfortable with the story in my head... It's all assumptions in both of our heads. Relax.

In this debate it seems that you and I are the only members of the pro-Solomon team, let's not argue with each other also!

 

[PeteR]

Solomon was an enigma, but for a particular reason, I believe. Primarily, I think he is a picture of the antimessiah.. Spiritually, he clearly demonstrates that even the wisest (human) man cannot save us. Further, he demonstrates that like the true Messiah, he can have a ton of wives (using the picture of us betrothed to Messiah), some of Judah, some of Israel (the northern kingdom that he actually exploited, justifying their departure from Rehoboam) and some 'grafted in' (concubines). He did not lead them to Yah, rather they led him... away from Yah.

Physically, even in all his wisdom, he was a terrible tyrant and task master reducing the northern tribes almost to slavery. Do the math and consider the incredible burden placed on the people. I have studied and spoken on this topic... it is the seed of the wound between Ephraim and Judah and led to the rebellion of the house of Israel against the house of David. 1 Kings 12 is THE hinge upon which all of history swings... redemption, prophecy, Messiah ( Matthew 15:24!).

Today, Judah is expecting a messiah of the lineage of Solomon. He'll look like.... Solomon!

The lineage of Yeshua traces NOT through Solomon, but his younger brother, Nathan.

Considering Solomon is of utmost importance because of his connection with the antimessiah.

 

[Cap]

Solomon was an enigma, but for a particular reason, I believe. Primarily, I think he is a picture of the antimessiah.. Spiritually, he clearly demonstrates that even the wisest (human) man cannot save us. Further, he demonstrates that like the true Messiah, he can have a ton of wive (using the picture of us betrothed to Messiah), some of Judah, some of Israel (the northern kingdom that he actually exploited, justifying their departure from Rehoboam) and some 'grafted in (concubines). He did not lead them, rather they led him... away from Yah.

Physically, even in all his wisdom, he was a terrible tyrant and task master reducing the northern tribes almost to slavery. Do the math and consider the incredible burden placed on the people. I have studied and spoken on this... it is the seed of the wound between Ephraim and Judah and led to the rebellion of the house of Israel against the house of David. 1 Kings 12 is THE hinge upon which all of history swings... redemption, prophecy, Messiah ( Matthew 15:24!).

Today, Judah is expecting a messiah of the lineage of Solomon. He'll look like.... Solomon!

The lineage of Yeshua traces NOT through Solomon, but his younger brother, Nathan.

Considering Solomon is of utmost importance because of his connection with the antimessiah.

This makes sense to me.

 

[PeteR]

An additional thought... If David is a type of Messiah, then Absalom, or AvShalom (meaning my father is peace) is an antimessiah type... but, as demonstrated above, so is Solomon. His name is actually Shlomo, also meaning 'Peace' (or some derivative.) Both come in peace, but attempt to destroy the kingdom.

 

[rockfox]

I’m not really sure that anyone wins with this. I’m still having to wrap my mind around this new perspective on Solomon. I was vaguely unaware until I started looking into it

The next part of this is the warning that the man who does this will be cut off from Israel. I’m unaware of Solomon repenting before his death. I’m almost afraid to chase this thought down for someone that was highly regarded and even blessed by God himself at some point in history

What get's me is how someone so wise could fall into this.

I agree it is possible that Solomon sacrificed children to Moloch - but find it difficult to believe that he could do that and still be chosen by God to author three books of the Bible. So I find it unlikely, but possible.

Well he was wise above all men; it would be surprising if he didn't. And yet...

For Solomon went after Ashtoreth the goddess of the Zidonians, and after Milcom [another name for Molech] the abomination of the Ammonites.
And Solomon did evil in the sight of the LORD

"Solomon did evil"

So ya, apparently things changed for Solomon.

We don't know for sure that Solomon did sacrifice children; but it is strongly implied that his wive's did. But he must have been ok with it at some level or he would not have built a place of worship for such a god.