• Biblical Families is not a dating website. It is a forum to discuss issues relating to marriage and the Bible, and to offer guidance and support, not to find a wife. Click here for more information.

Statement of Focus for Biblical Families

NVIII said:
My biggest problem with all of this is that it censors people like @Mark C, @JudahYAHites, @StudentofHim, and so on. Even @PeteR, although I guess he has done a good enough job of behaving.
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I appreciate your concern and I would remind all that there is a forum section specifically for Torah discussion. We should have the ability for healthy respectful debate, though often this place gets way to invested in winning, vs honest discovery or discussion.

As to me being domesticated? 😂😂😂 I just take my heaviest artillery elsewhere.. (see my YiuTube channel ). This is a haven with the common objective of patriarchy and support of polygyny. I'm of the personal, largely unspoken opinion, that polygyny of necessity leads to increasing wrestling with the whole of Yah's Word... Torah.

I'm willing to trust that Yah leads each heart in His time and we may place a stone in someone's shoe, but we won't forcibly move anyone into keeping Torah. ..

ALL of us need to be doing OUTreach and building internal strength as a unique body that embraces truths cast aside by both Judaism and Christianity.
 
I appreciate everybody's contribution to maintain this forum over the years. I just wisht that I would have discovered you guys earlier, perhaps I would have switched over to eating meat by now instead of consuming milk. I appreciate your decisions regarding this forum because as a consumer of milk, it is hard to hear someone calling the Church a whore. It is people within the Church who introduced me to my Savior and taught me inerrancy of the Scripture. If possible in your zealousness for truth exert fruit of love. When I hear that love hopes all things what comes to mind is to give the benefit of doubt that the Church, or a person with opposing view genuinely and benevolently hold a certain view (not that I am an expert in practicing it). Being winsome in your cause is always great first step. (wow, I just preached to myself). Shalom.
 
I planned to read this thread and not respond but since my name was mentioned here I am.

I am very new to this platform so hopefully a fresh perspective from a newbie, may, I hope, be of value to this conversation.

What may be surprising to many is that I actually agree with much of what @nathan has written in the statement of focus.
The ongoing success of any type of organisation needs focus direction and order...

HOWEVER...

The manner in which that is implemented is of utmost importance.

The fact of the matter is that no one can control who joins this platform, unless one implements a vetting system (which would be untenable), or, where they are in their walk with Christ, and it is a certainty that conversations that some do not like will come up as a simple part of PM dialogue whoever likes it or not.

Again as a newbie on this platform, I joined hoping that I would find somewhere that was indeed focused with like minded people regarding polygyny, I have enjoyed many conversation interactions, on here, however, my experience so far has been mainly one of disappointment marred by egos, narrow mindedness and pettiness.

I am in London UK with no one who even teaches what I teach regarding biblical marriage (let alone anything else) anywhere around, not even to have a coffee and chat with, so this platform is a place I can engage with men who I believe have a desire like I do, to lead their homes as the image and glory of YAH God that we are created to be.

I am not going to name names but there are some on here who just by reading what and how they write I would enjoy sitting and having a conversation with, not because we agree, but because I respect what they say, simply from a man's point of view, and they are not necessarily torah keepers in fact I know for a fact some doctrinal beliefs are opposed to mine, BUT, I know they have a desire to please our father in heaven, that's enough for me to break bread and fellowship, not whether they keep torah or not or have the same doctrinal viewpoint.

For the record I knew about and lived polygyny before Torah.

I do not know how you guys set things up, and I have no idea who is who really, but, seeming there is a non torah and torah division of some sort, is there Torah keeping representation within the admin etc team that would help provide some sort of balance with regards to PM discussions and keeping balance whether non torah admins agree on Torah or not ? Maybe there is I have no idea.

Some Torah keepers may think of me as being flaky because of what I have just written and not taking a harder stance, but I just know where YaHushuWaH / Jesus has brought me from, to where I am now, and I understand some are on milk while some are eating strong meat while there are also some enjoying soup at the moment.

This prayer has helped me from day one and will continue to help me, hopefully it will help all who read it gain a more balanced perspective on our reliance on him as our conversations, dialogues and interactions continue.

Psalm 86:11-13 KJV — Teach me thy way, O LORD; I will walk in thy truth: unite my heart to fear thy name. I will praise thee, O Lord my God, with all my heart: and I will glorify thy name for evermore. For great is thy mercy toward me: and thou hast delivered my soul from the lowest hell.

Shalom Love and Blessings
 
StudentofHim said:
I appreciate this ministry, and more so the people who have interacted here to share their wisdom and experiences. This forum is not a local church and - as part of its intended purpose - is too committed to neutrality. This forum, while prioritizing things other than the whole truth, is still profitable - for now. Primarily as a way to meet fellow brothers in the faith, which I hope to do in person as soon as I can attend a retreat.

I would recommend that if the forum is to begin shutting down conversations outside of the specific topic of marriage, that it NOT shut down conversations about aspects of said topic that some members find unpalatable.

But begin to censor what you will. And if that includes some of my posts, I will not be the one to worry. For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth.
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Oh no one is suppressing the truth. We are focusing on those aspects of the truth that we specifically feel called to promulgate. Peter and Paul had different ministry focuses from each other. And BibFam has its own ministry focus.

And it’s not like there isn’t a metric boat load of information on Torah keeping on the forum. We’re just done hacking at each other over it anymore.
 
I know that it is not a complete parallel in any way, but some similarities between where we are at and the position of the apostles in Acts 15.
19Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles are turned to God: 20But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood. 21For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day.

To the non-Torah folks, I apologize for using this situation as it probably comes across as a Torah argument. My aim is to show the Torah folk a Scriptural example of dialing it back, since they are the ones who seem the most disturbed at the present stance of the leadership here.
 
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nathan said:
Statement of Focus for Biblical Families

Every so often in any organization it becomes necessary to consider where you are, how you got there, and if a course correction of any magnitude is necessary. That’s where Biblical Families is right now. After prayer and deliberation, we think some changes are needed, and that the result will better serve the core mission God has given us: the support of Biblical Patriarchal families, including those families with more than one wife. Note the emphasis on “patriarchal” – while we believe that God may call a man to zero, one, or more wives, we feel certain that all His earthly sons are called to live as Men who lead and love following His own example – and this is patriarchy. We think the biggest battle we face is not over plural marriage but over the near-complete destruction of Biblical patriarchy, both in Western culture, and in the vast majority of the church. We are aware this focus is likely to make us even more of a target than plural marriage does.

We also want to point out what our focus is NOT: it is not on any particular theological position beyond the Gospel, including debate thereof. While we respect, and even enjoy, that we have folks who participate at Biblical Families from many backgrounds and traditions, it’s important that these differences do not become divisive to the core purpose God has given us: Patriarchal Biblical families and marriage. Lately, it’s become more evident that debate of these differences has become a distraction to our online forum. We have heard from more than a few folks who have left the forum (over the years and recently) over ongoing debates, particularly debates between those brothers who feel led to some form of Torah Observance / Hebrew Roots and those who do not. This is a distraction from our purpose, and when people are leaving over this, it’s time to make a correction. It is now our intention to put an end to these debates. Personal attacks and ridicule are out-of-bounds as well. This means a change in moderation goals, and some new moderators joining the team, as Samuel cannot be expected to keep an eye on everything that is posted. We would ask that those who participate regularly help in this regard: if you see anything that you think is potentially problematic, use the Report button on a post, just to highlight it (this is only visible to moderators, and they will have the final decision on what happens). Moderation is not a strict set of rules, and will necessarily evolve in practice. If not having this outlet for debate at Biblical Families is disappointing to you, we can point you to other online forums where you can discuss/debate any particular theological issue. We can’t keep our focus and be all things to all people.

We restate that our bond at Biblical Families is the bond of brotherhood in the saving grace of the Gospel of Jesus/Yeshua. We want to be clear that all those who consider themselves brothers and sisters in the Gospel are welcome to participate at Biblical Families, both online and at retreats, and in any community discussion. We’d ask you to understand the major purpose for the online forums: to be a place of learning and growth for those who God is calling to live patriarchally or to plural marriage. It is not for anyone to promote their specific theological distinctives.

Finding the line between what is OK and what is not, is something the moderators will have to do, and will need some grace for – thank you for extending it to them, just as the Father has extended it to all of us.

------------------------------

Not coincidently, we are happy to announce that 2 new moderators are joining the team to help in this mission. The first is not ‘new’ at all, and we are happy to have Zec (@The Revolting Man) joining to help out, as well Lance (@ABlessedMan). Both gentlemen will bring their unique point-of-view to the team, and we believe the forum will benefit from this. We want to take this opportunity to also thank our chief moderator of many years, Samuel (@FollowingHim), for his often single-handed effort in keeping the BF forum on-track. The forum as a community would be a much less valuable place without his ongoing time and attention.

Biblical Families Board and Staff
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Thank you very much @nathan for this clarification. Much needed and much appreciated. Its necessary for ministry organisations to avoid getting sidetracked from their specific core mission. For those who want to pursue a different direction they can join a group or ministry that caters to that interest. For me and my wives I'm delighted you are keeping the ministry focused on Biblical Families, and with that, biblical marriage. We are super grateful for the wisdom and support we've received here and from the likes of Samuel personally. Blessings and Shalom to you all.
 
I hesitate to write, but I believe that one thing should be made clear. While much of the "ink spilt" in this discussion regards Torah Observant believers, Nathan's statement on moderation and keeping fellowship also pertains to those who have strong feelings that oppose Torah Observance. What Nathan is striving for (correct me if I'm wrong, please) is for order and decency (on both sides).
I don't believe that the moderation team will censor serious discussions of difficult passages. . . but discussion of difficult passages does not mean that anyone (Torah or non-Torah) should be a jerk about it. Civility and respect should be rooted in our common love for the LORD.

To Torah Observant folk . . . to be as clear as I can . . . If someone belittles or disparages you because of Torah Observance, this should not be so. . . and it will be addressed. If we don't catch it on our own, don't hesitate to contact anyone in leadership. There have been breaches on both sides of the community, this is an opportunity to get us back toward order and a beneficial witness.
 
steve said:
I know that it is not a complete parallel in any way, but some similarities between where we are at and the position of the apostles in Acts 15.
19Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles are turned to God: 20But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood. 21For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day.

To the non-Torah folks, I apologize for using this situation as it probably comes across as a Torah argument. My aim is to show the Torah folk a Scriptural example of dialing it back, since they are the ones who seem the most disturbed at the present stance of the leadership here.
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Dear lord you’re brilliant. I never saw that. Score.
 
I believe that all of the arguments have been made from each side. There is nothing new under the sun.
I am reminded of an old joke:
A man has just been installed at his new residence in a prison when someone calls out “47!”, upon which much laughter ensues. A bit later another calls out “27!”, with another round of laughter following it.
So he asks his cell mate what is up with the numbers?
The guy tells him that all of the jokes had gone around so many times that they had just given them numbers. Hollering out a number reminded everyone of that specific joke, and they continued to enjoy them.
So the new guy hauls off and hollers “56!”, total silence. He figures that there maybe isn’t that many jokes, so he hollers out “12!”, still nothing.
He asks his cell mate what was the problem.
The answer? “Some guys know how to tell a joke, and some guys can’t”.

All that to say, maybe when questions come up we just refer back to the place in “the stacks” where that point was debated.
This way we would “15……and be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear:”
Teaching without refighting the debate multiple times per week. The teachable would look into it and decide on their own.
 
I would like to point out that I am Torah observant and I would also like to point out that I probably adamently disagree with maybe 50% of the people here and that includes Nathan on certain doctrinal issues. But when I came to this forum, I came to this forum knowing that there would be people here that I would adamently disagree with, because it's not a Torah observant forum, I came here to learn about polygyny and Biblical marriage, that is the ministry of this forum and it is made clear on the Home Page. I do appreciate that there is now a Torah observant section for us to hash issues out in. And I thank Nathan and others for allowing a small little page, I concider it a privilage to have that because it isn't the focus for this ministry. I know Steve pointed this out, but I am going to point it out again,
Acts 15:19 Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles are turned to God:
Acts 15:20 But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood.
Acts 15:21 For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day.

I personally believe that if people... II Timothy 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
They will sooner or later come to the Truth.
Nathan I would personally like to thank you for starting this ministry so that we have an oportunity to learn about Biblical Marriage. I honestly believe that if it hadn't been for the ladies ministry of this forum @Proverbs3.5 would not be where she is today, Julie and a lot of the ladies are part of her growth, so Hats off to you ladies :)
 
steve said:
I know that it is not a complete parallel in any way, but some similarities between where we are at and the position of the apostles in Acts 15.
19Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles are turned to God: 20But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood. 21For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day.

To the non-Torah folks, I apologize for using this situation as it probably comes across as a Torah argument. My aim is to show the Torah folk a Scriptural example of dialing it back, since they are the ones who seem the most disturbed at the present stance of the leadership here.
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A very good point, although I worry about the fact that verse 21 is no longer true. Torah is no longer taught in most churches, and is seen by most Christians as no longer necessary. But this is not a church, and perhaps the care that would pertain to fellow members of a local church going forward in all truth does not pertain between all of the members of this forum.

I will repeat myself and say that I look forward to the day I can meet many of these men in person.
 
To re-iterate something that @The Revolting Man pointed out early on: This decision was made by the BF Board as well as @FollowingHim and @The Revolting Man.

It wasn’t made lightly; it’s been a couple months in the offing. There are probably more tweaks to the format that need to be made down the road too.

The word censorship is inflammatory, and it simply doesn’t apply. We’ve stated our purpose: to keep the forum focused on the mission we’ve been given. We’ve stated what the result with less focus and more noise has been: people that we could otherwise help, leave. We are going to work to improve this, and that absolutely involves moderation and we don’t apologize for this. This is not a public street corner, where anyone can say anything. Privately run forums (which we are) of all types moderate for content appropriate to them all the time, and our main mistake here was not keeping our focus earlier. If you don’t care about the people that leave, some at a critical time in their lives, then the BF forum may not be the place for you.

Also, being put on “post approval” status (where moderators see each post before it goes public) does not constitute “banning” or “exiling”. You last had that status 11 years ago, @Mark C. (The BF forum went online in early 2008, for anyone wondering.)
 
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It seems like the jousting here has reached distraction level, and like most other online debates it’s not going to change anything - so anybody who wants to ask anything or debate further, can take it private: pick whatever group of staff/moderators you want to start a private Conversation with. Thanks for understanding.
 
So just to be clear. Jokes like this are out now:

babylonbee.com

Circumcised Galatians Really Wishing That Letter From Paul Had Come Sooner

GALATIA — A local follower of the new religious sect known as "Christians" expressed frustration after a letter from the Apostle Paul arrived notifying the group of believers that circumcision is not a requirement to be a member of the church.
babylonbee.com babylonbee.com
 
cnystrom said:
So just to be clear. Jokes like this are out now:

babylonbee.com

Circumcised Galatians Really Wishing That Letter From Paul Had Come Sooner

GALATIA — A local follower of the new religious sect known as "Christians" expressed frustration after a letter from the Apostle Paul arrived notifying the group of believers that circumcision is not a requirement to be a member of the church.
babylonbee.com babylonbee.com
Click to expand...
Jokes like this are a grey area, if everyone laughs then it’s funny. If people start debating it then it and the debates get removed.
 
I've had some private, and respectful, exchanges with a number of those involved in the changes reflected in this thread, for which I am thankful. And praying that, this time, "things really will be different."

But I would be remiss, if - having offered a LOT of criticism - I didn't offer a bit more as well. That is in the form of this thread, and some background to go with it:

What is 'Midrash'?

This topic came up in another thread, one that I found highly controversial, based both on personal conviction and experience; including here on this forum, as it turns out. In the process, a good question was asked, "What is midrash?" I concluded that the answer didn't fit directly in that...
www.biblicalfamilies.org www.biblicalfamilies.org
 
nathan said:
Statement of Focus for Biblical Families

Every so often in any organization it becomes necessary to consider where you are, how you got there, and if a course correction of any magnitude is necessary. That’s where Biblical Families is right now. After prayer and deliberation, we think some changes are needed, and that the result will better serve the core mission God has given us: the support of Biblical Patriarchal families, including those families with more than one wife. Note the emphasis on “patriarchal” – while we believe that God may call a man to zero, one, or more wives, we feel certain that all His earthly sons are called to live as Men who lead and love following His own example – and this is patriarchy. We think the biggest battle we face is not over plural marriage but over the near-complete destruction of Biblical patriarchy, both in Western culture, and in the vast majority of the church. We are aware this focus is likely to make us even more of a target than plural marriage does.

We also want to point out what our focus is NOT: it is not on any particular theological position beyond the Gospel, including debate thereof. While we respect, and even enjoy, that we have folks who participate at Biblical Families from many backgrounds and traditions, it’s important that these differences do not become divisive to the core purpose God has given us: Patriarchal Biblical families and marriage. Lately, it’s become more evident that debate of these differences has become a distraction to our online forum. We have heard from more than a few folks who have left the forum (over the years and recently) over ongoing debates, particularly debates between those brothers who feel led to some form of Torah Observance / Hebrew Roots and those who do not. This is a distraction from our purpose, and when people are leaving over this, it’s time to make a correction. It is now our intention to put an end to these debates. Personal attacks and ridicule are out-of-bounds as well. This means a change in moderation goals, and some new moderators joining the team, as Samuel cannot be expected to keep an eye on everything that is posted. We would ask that those who participate regularly help in this regard: if you see anything that you think is potentially problematic, use the Report button on a post, just to highlight it (this is only visible to moderators, and they will have the final decision on what happens). Moderation is not a strict set of rules, and will necessarily evolve in practice. If not having this outlet for debate at Biblical Families is disappointing to you, we can point you to other online forums where you can discuss/debate any particular theological issue. We can’t keep our focus and be all things to all people.

We restate that our bond at Biblical Families is the bond of brotherhood in the saving grace of the Gospel of Jesus/Yeshua. We want to be clear that all those who consider themselves brothers and sisters in the Gospel are welcome to participate at Biblical Families, both online and at retreats, and in any community discussion. We’d ask you to understand the major purpose for the online forums: to be a place of learning and growth for those who God is calling to live patriarchally or to plural marriage. It is not for anyone to promote their specific theological distinctives.

Finding the line between what is OK and what is not, is something the moderators will have to do, and will need some grace for – thank you for extending it to them, just as the Father has extended it to all of us.

------------------------------

Not coincidently, we are happy to announce that 2 new moderators are joining the team to help in this mission. The first is not ‘new’ at all, and we are happy to have Zec (@The Revolting Man) joining to help out, as well Lance (@ABlessedMan). Both gentlemen will bring their unique point-of-view to the team, and we believe the forum will benefit from this. We want to take this opportunity to also thank our chief moderator of many years, Samuel (@FollowingHim), for his often single-handed effort in keeping the BF forum on-track. The forum as a community would be a much less valuable place without his ongoing time and attention.

Biblical Families Board and Staff
Click to expand...

More than one loyal friend or associate alerted me to this thread, and it has inspired me to re-engage to some degree on these forums.

I left a year ago for reasons explained elsewhere that have absolutely nothing to do with what, after reading every post in this thread, appears to have been the inspiration for @nathan's Statement of Focus for Biblical Families post. Technically, it's probably unsurprising to note that, in any Torah-Keeper/non-Torah-Keeper dialectic, I certainly started out in this organization as a non-Torah-Keeper, but, very early on, the repeated skirmishes between the two camps dismayed me enough that I devoted a significant amount of my energy here to focusing on diminishing such riffs. Especially since my departure and subsequent spiritually-profitable shift over to Truth Social, X, Rumble and Substack, I have come to the perspective of interpreting our relationship to God/Yah and Jesus/Yeshua/Christ to indicate that any man who truly embraces patriarchy, much less any man who likewise embraces scriptural polygyny, is inescapably and to a significant degree a Torah Keeper -- not necessarily in the intellectual framework typically insisted upon during Hatfield & McCoys TKvNTK debates, but certainly to the extent that every aspect of the foundational underpinnings of both patriarchy and polygyny is sourced from the Pentateuch in general and from Torah in particular. I can't, for example, cite one instance in which Jesus or Paul addresses the general subject of marriage without referring back to the Tanakh to one degree or another -- and most frequently to Torah. So, I've come to refer to myself as an Isaiah 1 Torah Keeper rather than feeling compelled to slot myself into one side or the other of the Law/Grace Kerfuffel.

I respect the dual intentions of (a) decreasing unnecessary, misplaced vitriol between Torah Keepers and Grace Only factions, and (b) returning focus to P&P: Patriarchy and Polygyny.

Before I post elsewhere, though, it's only fair to address a couple potential elephants in the room:
  1. For those keeping score, yes, this is not completely congruent with my statements in the 'Exit Interview' about what it would take to inspire me to return to biblicalfamilies.org. However, in the months immediately following my departure from these forums, I learned a great many things about this organization, and one salient dynamic is that Samuel is not the problem and only has delegated authority, so I'm not here to put any further effort into challenging his role here.
  2. Nor am I returning to challenge the fact that I'm no longer permitted to attend in-person gatherings. Just as with any privately-owned organization, the owners have no obligation to welcome anyone in particular into their midst.
I'm here instead because some people near and dear to my heart alerted me to Biblical Families' published intention to reinvigorate the primacy of promoting patriarchy and polygyny, because among those who asked me to return was one in particular to whom I owe great debts of gratitude, and because I'm taking @nathan and whomever helped him draw up this most recent Statement of Focus for Biblical Families at his/their word.

Period.

By the time I post this, I will have caught up on all posts in this thread and will then move on to do so with a select handful of others. Patriarchy and polygyny are important to me -- enough to take them incredibly seriously -- so I am grateful for this platform, but P&P aren't all that drives me in life, so I will probably be more discriminating about what I share here this time around, saving my other content for more free-spirited venues that worry less about imaginary potential threats than the real ones already literally staring us down. In private, you may ask me anything, but you're also welcome to engage with me on other topics by seeking me out on X (@nuclearheart169) or on Truth Social (@169KevinSamuelsOldHippieGodson).

And I'll close this post with a few comments related to the posts contained in these five pages:
  • This has never been and never will be a 'free speech' platform, nor is it required to be. As such, being restricted from saying whatever one wants is simply not censorship, because censorship directly implies governmental restriction of freedom of expression. As members of this organization, each of us 'serves' at the pleasure of the owners. We can want what we want, but that doesn't translate into meaning we're entitled to get what we want. Furthermore, in the realm of speech restrictions, I applaud putting a governor on the throttle when it comes to divisive theological/denominational rhetoric, because such conflict will only distract us from confronting truly destructive organizational insufficiencies.
  • I always love the Pauline 'milk' and 'meat' distinctions and remain available to help craft further implementation of those distinctions in a way that would foster 'meat' debates while providing material elsewhere that won't scare away the skittish. I must confess I remain puzzled about the 'BibFam' nickname that began to emerge and replace 'BF' just about the time I was leaving last year; it makes me cringe a bit when I hear it, but perhaps it could be put to good use as a moniker for the Milk Zone, given that one who's still drinking milk instead of eating meat would be the most likely to actually be wearing a bib. I know a guy who knows a girl who knows a guy who could design a really rad logo for a BibFam Milk Zone . . .
  • Steve's 'old joke' about prison jokes was perfectly placed in this thread. And, by the way, the joke itself goes by '13'. I anticipate, though, that I'm about to learn that I'm in that Can't-Tell-a-Good-One category . . .
I look forward to resuming relationships.
 
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