Speaking in tongues; actual languages or prayer language?

[FollowingHim]

Do all speak in tongues?

No. 1 Co 12:29-30 makes that very clear.
Tongues are real - but when a church says everyone can do it if they have the Spirit, that's when you know they've strayed off into dangerous heresy.

Is it a spiritual language or the ability to speak human languages that one has not studied, in order to share the wonders of God?

Definitely the second. Probably the first also - but if so, the first is intended for private edification and I can't see any place for it in public worship, certainly not the prominent place many churches give it.

 

[rustywest4]

@Slumberfreeze nailed it... 1 Corinthians 14... I've been mumbling jibberish to myself for many years...

For he who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men but to God, for no one understands him; however, in the spirit he speaks mysteries.

He who speaks in a tongue edifies himself, but he who prophesies edifies the church. (‭I Corinthians‬ ‭14‬:‭2, 4‬ NKJV)

Likewise the Spirit also helps in our weaknesses. For we do not know what we should pray for as we ought, but the Spirit Himself makes intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered. (‭Romans‬ ‭8‬:‭26‬ NKJV)

I will always defend the fact that there is something to the whole "praying in tongues" thing that is edifying to oneself and is a unique and slightly mysterious way of connecting with the Holy Spirit during personal prayer time... it's real and can be very intimate and powerful (in my personal experience)... However, I've never had the privilege of "giving a message in tongues" where the Lord by His Spirit moved me to speak in tongues in a congregation setting (where Scripture is clear that there must be an interpretation)... In fact, when I was pastoring I use to pray prior to service that the Lord would prevent any "massages in tongues" (unless divinely truly from Him), because so often it was simply someone praying in their own "prayer language", then someone making up an "interpretation"....

I'm not trying to make fun or make light of this special and scriptural gift... but from my experience unless it's real and from the Lord, than it can actually be bad for the body during times of worship, rather than edifying like it's supposed to be. Faking moves of the Spirit isn't something I want anything to do with. Sadly I've seen it countless times.

 

[rockfox]

@rustywest4 Can you explain, how is praying in tongues edifying to yourself?

 

[rustywest4]

@rockfox ... that's a great question brother... and I wish I could defer the question to the one who I quote in saying so (The Apostle Paul 1Cor.14:4) ... I can simply speak from my own experience, in that while "praying in tongues" during my private times of worship and meditation with the Lord, it seems to "strengthen my inner man" aka my spirit...

"that He would grant you, according to the riches of His glory, to be strengthened with might through His Spirit in the inner man" (‭Ephesians‬ ‭3‬:‭16‬ NKJV)

I wish I had a better and more logical explanation to give on this matter... but I am not too sure some things of the spirit are to be raitionally explained.

And before I get labeled a crazy or a mystic or some such, I'd like to state that I'll gladly receive such titles as I feel I'd be in good company with many of our beloved brothers in Scripture that had an intimate walk with the Spirit of the Living God.

 

[Slumberfreeze]

@rockfox

A great deal of how the gibberish tongue is edifying to one's self @rustywest4 pretty much already stated when he said:

it's real and can be very intimate and powerful (in my personal experience)

I'll quantify and list some ways that this is true, but Rusty basically already summed it up.

• Tongues is a personal sign. The man who speaks in a tongue, knowing that he is not faking it, knows that the Holy Spirit is moving his tongue to form words. It is a confirmation that the Holy Spirit is inside him, and that he is a Temple of the Holy Spirit.
• Tongues is a small but real act of faith. The man who speaks in tongues does not plan what syllables he will speak, and yet must make the decision to breathe out and trust that the Spirit will move his lips and tongue.
• The man might have once tested the degree to which this was true, and attempted to insert a syllable on purpose. The man found that the attempt caused the flow of the tongue to sharply shift to a repetition of a word or phrase that he did not understand but was clearly something in the ballpark of an error code. Among the things the man learned was the fact that the man may speak or not speak but may not attempt to change the sounds that were given. This taught the man that the words a man is given may be nonsensical to the man, but were nevertheless God-breathed and God would not suffer one analog of a jot or tittle to be changed.
• Tongues is the act of speaking actual words conveying actual messages whether or not the man understands them, and since God has chosen and curated those words, the man who speaks them can know that the words He spoke were the absolute right words to be spoken.

Bonus Round:

• The gibberish tongues may very well be, in context, languages that Angels use.
• Therefore the fact that a man must be alone when speaking in tongues does not mean that he may not have an audience that understands his speech.
• Which does not necessarily edify the body, except for the man speaking
• But might make a difference to the Angel that happens to hear him, and who because of what he heard, decides to stand with Michael in a certain soon-coming war.

 

[rustywest4]

Yea ... what Sir Slumber said...

Boom-shock-a-lock-a!!

P.S. Stoked for when Michael puts the final smack down! Yup!

 

[rockfox]

Somehow, I don't think the Angel's lack understanding of English. But thank you both, very enlightening answers.

Tongues is the act of speaking actual words conveying actual messages whether or not the man understands them, and since God has chosen and curated those words, the man who speaks them can know that the words He spoke were the absolute right words to be spoken

This part doesn't sound quite right. If God is choosing the words, then man is little more than a biological audio box, seems sort of redundant for God to talk to himself via your body. Did God choose those words or is it the spirit in you doing it? How do we know?

 

[Aussies]

1 Corinthians 14:22-23 +28

 

[Slumberfreeze]

Somehow, I don't think the Angel's lack understanding of English.

Well, what I was getting at was that angels hear people speak all the time, but if they hear us speak us speaking in their own tongue... then it is a sign for them that what is spoken is authentic.

If God is choosing the words, then man is little more than a biological audio box, seems sort of redundant for God to talk to himself via your body.

Haha! For Him it is redundant, but for us it is safe! But being little more than a biological audio box has it's comforts. And they are indeed very personal comforts that cannot be shared. And if God speaks to Himself so that I cannot understand at one instance, or if I pray in the Spirit and pray how He moves me in a language that I do understand, what is the essential difference? They both require my assent and effort, and both have their genesis with God and both flow to God. My hand serves Him, which He created from clay, which He created from nothing, which is to say Himself, for He Is the only thing that Is. The elders continually surround Him and bow down and speak to Him the words that He has commanded them to say forever and ever. It all starts with God, it all ends with God. The only miracle is that I have some agency can actually be relevant!

Did God choose those words or is it the spirit in you doing it?

Too.. fine a distinction for me. My spirit was dead before Christ. Now the Holy Spirit is in me. I did see a thread about something something binatarian, but I didn't read it at all. I have no official opinion about the nature of the godhead. But if you're asking are my lips moved by my own unregenerate nature, or the Holy Spirit, then the answer is simple. The Holy Spirit.

How do we know?

It's going to boil down to faith that if you have asked for an egg, God will not give you a serpent. When I asked for the gift of tongues and found myself gibbering incoherently, I needed to have the faith to know that this was what I asked for, not a sneaky substitution.

It would be a very poor spiritual gift if what the gift was, was the thoughts and intents of my own heart, expressed in words I could not understand. I would HIDE from an interpreter, rather than have the selfish desires of my 'old man' translated. If I have any spiritual goodness in me to be expressed, it would be Christ in me, or the indwelling of the Holy Spirit (another distinction too fine for me) but either way, the words chosen by God.

Or if it's really my spirit speaking as tutored or moved by the Holy Spirit.... once again, a level of detail that I cannot differentiate. The hand moves consciously and the heart beats unconsciously but they both respond to the head because they are all one.

 

[rockfox]

Too.. fine a distinction for me. My spirit was dead before Christ. Now the Holy Spirit is in me. I did see a thread about something something binatarian, but I didn't read it at all. I have no official opinion about the nature of the godhead. But if you're asking are my lips moved by my own unregenerate nature, or the Holy Spirit, then the answer is simple. The Holy Spirit.

No I'm not trying to get into the Godhead. I'm just trying to understand the mechanics of prayer here. Do you see this as actual novel communication from you to God; you telling God something that has its source in you, your spirit, your feelings, your mind, whatever. Or is this words that come from God and speak through you.

It sounds like you're saying the later; but not based on interpolation from your understanding of regeneration and not on specific statements about prayer/praying in toungues. Is that correct?

 

[Slumberfreeze]

It sounds like you're saying the later; but not based on interpolation from your understanding of regeneration and not on specific statements about prayer/praying in toungues. Is that correct?

Is there a way you could dumb-down that question and re-state it? I'm sitting here trying to formulate a response but am totally locked in place by the fact that I feel like a deer caught in headlights.

I don't comprehend what is happening. I should run but it's so bright and strange. Is this the end?

 

[Nikud]

Is there a way you could dumb-down that question and re-state it? I'm sitting here trying to formulate a response but am totally locked in place by the fact that I feel like a deer caught in headlights.

You dont understand the language of the question he must be speaking in tongues.

One way it's been explained to me is the prayer originates from the person but the language comes from G-d through the Holy spirit. As the prayer is spoken the Holy Spirit channels the language and does a translation of your prayer.

 

[Cap]

You dont understand the language of the question he must be speaking in tongues.

One way it's been explained to me is the prayer originates from the person but the language comes from G-d through the Holy spirit. As the prayer is spoken the Holy Spirit channels the language and does a translation of your prayer.

If this is true, then you sir have the gift of interpretation of tongue's.

 

[Cap]

One thing that seems interesting to me is that speaking in your natural language it seems you have to think about what you are saying, so when you pray in that language your mind controls the prayer. However, speaking in tongues your mind wanders and while speaking this way and trying to understand what you are thinking at the same time you can sort of get an idea of what you are praying. Not sure if that's really real, it just seems interesting.

 

[IshChayil]

The closest scriptural description I’ve found to what is seen today is vain and profane babbling. It’s vain because it only edifies the actor and profane because it claims divine origin. The babbling part is pretty self evident

2 Tim 2:16. But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness.

1 Tim 6:20. O Timothy, keep that which is committed to thy trust, avoiding profane and vain babblings, and oppositions of science falsely so called:

In Modern English, babbling doesn't seem to be a fair translation here.

[BDAG] & [Lidell-Scott] entries bellow both address both verses you quote directly brother:
κενοφωνία, ας, ἡ (s. κενός, φωνέω; Diosc., Mat. Med. Praef. 2 W.; Porphyr., Adv. Christ. 58, 15 Harnack; Hesychius and Suda=ματαιολογία) talk that has no value, chatter, empty talk βέβηλοι κενοφωνίαι profane chatter i.e. devoid of Christian content 1 Ti 6:20; 2 Ti 2:16 (as v.l. in both pass. καινοφωνίαι contemporary jargon, unless this is simply a phonetic variant or itacism, since in this period αι was pronounced as ε).—M-M. TW.
Arndt, W., Danker, F. W., Bauer, W., & Gingrich, F. W. (2000). A Greek-English lexicon of the New Testament and other early Christian literature (3rd ed., p. 539). Chicago: University of Chicago Press.

[Lidel-Scott entry]
κενοφωνία, ἡ, vain talking, Dsc.Praef.2: in pl., 1Ep.Ti.6.20, 2Ep.Ti.2.16, Porph.Chr.58; ἄγραφοι κ. Just.Nov.146.1.2.
Liddell, H. G., Scott, R., Jones, H. S., & McKenzie, R. (1996). A Greek-English lexicon (p. 938). Oxford: Clarendon Press.

Neither of these 2 premier scholarly lexicons list babbling as an option.

The devoid of Christian content definition also matches Jewish halachah that any conversation which does not mention G-d or something from the bible is an "evil conversation".
To translate it babbling provides quite an anti-charasmatic bias since the forefront meaning in most modern folks minds of babbling is what infants do when they can't speak.
Granted it means other things too, but in the context of tongues, it certainly takes on this meaning.

"All translation is commentary" - Rabbi Rashi
peace

 

[rockfox]

I guess what I'm getting at is this:

Is the content of the prayer from you (directly or indirectly via the Spirit) or direct from God Himself?

And what are you basing this view on? Personal experience? Scripture that directly talks about prayer / toungues? Or scripture on other subjects (i.e. unregenerate nature)?

I ask that because there is a whole lot of theological bunk wrapped up in those other subjects which may jade my evaluation of the answer. Especially when we have to use human logic to get from that subject to this.

 

[Slumberfreeze]

Is the content of the prayer from you (directly or indirectly via the Spirit) or direct from God Himself?

I would say direct from God Himself.

And what are you basing this view on? Personal experience? Scripture that directly talks about prayer / toungues? Or scripture on other subjects (i.e. unregenerate nature)?

My personal testimony is valid, for my spirit knows the things that pertain to me (1Cor 2:11) and my spirit knows that neither gibberish nor angelic languages reside within me.

If my spirit somehow has it's own language... that would be brand new information!

Therefore since these words that I do not understand did not originate with me, they must have come from somewhere. I have been told that God would not give me a counterfeit gift (eggs/serpent), so I have the evidence of things not seen that no other spirit is forming these words, but the Holy Spirit.

 

[andrew]

Coupla things....

I don't pray in tongues but have no beef with those who do.

I can testify of one time (a Vineyard church in the mid-90s) an older woman stood up and spoke in tongues during a Sunday morning service (caught everyone off guard - not typical of that fellowship), followed immediately by someone else's standing up right after that and speaking in English what everyone present immediately grokked as the interpretation of what we had just heard. As far as I could tell, we were all a little surprised by 'what just happened', but couldn't deny the validity of the experience.

OTOH, I've seen much tomfoolery around the issue of tongues private and public, so went through a bit of a jaded phase. Got through it, though.

There's a grey area, IMO, with ministry prayers as part of a worship service. People should pray the way they feel led to pray, and I think the intentions of the heart are going to matter more than the all-too-human execution. I don't judge other people's prayers.

That said, if you're going to interrupt a service of worship with a public demonstration of speaking in tongues, I hope somebody gets up right behind you with a convincing interpretation, or I'll probably ask you to 'keep that on the inside' next time....

 

[steve]

About 22 years ago we were down in the bowels of Mexico attending a service and there was a time in which it was offered that us gringos would pray for whoever desired it.
I was asked to pray for an older gentleman and 1) I don’t speak Spanish, 2) I had no clue in my head as to what to pray for. So I hauled off and let fly with my prayer tongue.
Afterward another local man came up to me and asked me if I had known what I had prayed. I told him that I didn’t know and he proceeded to tell me that I had prayed for this man’s life and walk with the Lord in Italian.
Cool. I was just the conduit.

 

[andrew]

Great testimony.

If the people who have had 'legit' tongues experiences without turning it into a spiritual litmus test could dialogue freely with those who haven't had such experiences but are open-minded, and vice-versa, we could just ignore the closed-minded and dogmatic on both sides.

I think that probably covers a lot of Christian experience....

One of the better things about BF is when we get this right, as we seem to be doing here!