Slain in the spirit

[FollowingHim2]

I grew up in an Assembly of God church in Orlando, the very church where Benny Hinn met his wife. The first time I saw being "slain in the Spirit" was when he came and preached for the first time at that church. There was no clucking like chickens or barking like dogs. I personnally can't imaging anyone thinking that stuff like that would be spirit breathed. My experience was people just falling back like a great wind had pushed them down. I know that many would say that it was all fake and that Benny Hinn is a fraud but I didn't feel anything but peace and awe during those services. I have never experienced it myself. I did have someone pray for me in a service many years ago where it was happening. The pastor's wife who was praying for me said she felt like I didn't have anything to "work out" with the Lord at that time and that he didn't need to "slay" me to work on/reveal something to me. Again, I didn't feel that anyone was acting or that the leadership had prepped people to fake it in this medium sized church. Many who were "slain in the spirit" that day said that God revealed things to them thru visions that were encouraging and challenging.

I may have never experienced this "act" of the Spirit but I have experienced thae healing power of God when I was in 6th grade. I had been born with a disfigured right foot. The Doctors tried to fix it but my foot was never really the way it should be. It bothered me more as I grew up and I ended up having to wear a plastic foot support in my shoe that helped my foot walk correctly. The summer after 6th grade my family went to an Assembly of God summer camp and there they had a healing service for the kids. I thought "what the heck, I can at least ask the Lord to fix my foot. If he decides not to that is okay but it would be great to wear sandels more than a few hours! (Hey, I lived in Florida where people lived in sandels year round and I was a fashion concience teenager!) So, I went forward and asked for prayer. The minister sat me down in a chair and had me hold out both my legs together and he held my ankles and prayed. He prayed and held my ankles for at least 5 mins, I think, it has been along time since then, and then told me to stay there until I felt that God was done. He then let go of my ankles and walked away to minister to someone else. The crazy thing was that I could still feel hands on my ankles holding them up and my legs never got tired as I sat there for at least another few minutes. I was listening to the music being played and praying. Then all of a sudden it was like I woke up and remembered that my Mom would be wondering where I was and that I should go. The feeling of the hands left me and I got up and met up with my Mom. I excitedly told her everything that had happened and then asked her if I should remove my insert? I had heard that people should show an act of faith when they recieved healing. She wisely said it was up to me. I smiled and removed it from my shoe and never wore it again, nor ever needed to wear it again.

That's my story and I'm sticking to it.

Thank you for this Julie. This is an absolutely beautiful example of God's healing ability, power, and love.

 

[FollowingHim]

I'll add my own experience now.

When I was ten years old, my parents invited a female travelling preacher to have a prayer meeting at our home. At the time, I had various concerns of my own, and she prayed for me - and then blew on me. When she blew on me, I fell over completely involuntarily. But more than that - I could see myself lying on the floor, I was looking down on myself from the ceiling. I felt his love and care all around me - I did not feel like I was lying on a floor, but like I was floating or supported in His arms. I did not stay down for long, it was an unusual experience and I got up fairly quickly.

For me, this was a pivotal moment in my faith. It was the time that God moved from being head-knowledge, to me knowing that He was truly real, as I had felt His power (however unusually). From that day on my faith in Him was immovable - I could change my opinion on details, but could never have any doubt that He was actually real, and actually interacting with the lives of people today.

Going by the fruit of that event in my life, I have no doubt that this was truly the Holy Spirit.

Following that event though, I went to various other services and prayer meetings where this was occurring (it was quite widespread for a time). I was prayed for on one or two more occasions, and felt this less strongly each time. Increasingly it felt like people were trying to push for this outcome, and it was less real and more forced as time went on.

I feel that God has truly used this method to reveal His power and presence to people, when it makes sense for them individually, as He did for me. It is a mode of revealing Himself that probably resonates more strongly with women and children (which explains the number of women at such meetings). It is an emotive and pleasurable experience. But this means that it is something that people want to experience again. Because feeling God's presence that closely is awesome, who wouldn't want to feel close to Him? So people seek it again, and again, and try to recreate it. They use worship music to create the right "mood", to work everyone into the correct emotional state, to try and make this happen. And it becomes artificial.

When this happened to me at the age of 10, I was in a small meeting in a house. No worship band to set the mood and manipulate people's emotions to achieve an outcome. Just God's Spirit moving among His people who were seeking Him. This experience was real. But later times when I witnessed it in more churchy settings, and even sought it again myself (don't criticise - I was 10 years old!), it was less real or not real at all. Because it is not our business to try and manipulate God into giving us an experience. That's His decision.

So I think this can be anything from completely 100% God, to completely 100% emotional fakery with no spiritual component at all. At times there could be demonic influence, however I feel this is not a demonic experience, as everyone involved is trying to seek God and He knows how to give good gifts to His children when asked. I do not believe somebody who is genuinely seeking God and His Holy Spirit will receive a demon instead, just as a child who asks for a fish will not receive a snake. However, a demon may encourage them to keep seeking God in a way that the demon knows God does not desire, and will distract from finding the true path that God has for their life. And this is a distraction that holds more appeal to women and children than to men, so they can more readily be emotionally influenced to chase it, hence why so many women end up at such events.

At the meeting we were at a few days ago, this was very much pushed by people not a movement of God. I believe that what Sarah experienced was God, but a mild "ok, since you're all bothering me about it, here you go, but that's not really what you should be focussed on" sort of experience. Or something like that. The people there were not really focussed on the needs of the people they were praying for, they had an idea of what a "revival meeting" should be like - people falling down all over the place - and just focussed on trying to achieve that. I'm not worried about her experience myself, but it's bothering her, hence why she's asked the question here. I'm glad she's asking that question and trying to get it all clear in her head.

 

[steve]

The problem is that The Gifts are merely gifts, they were never intended to be protocol. We are tempted to treat them as an obligation of the Almighty. They aren’t, they are just reminders of how life should be if we were to actually walk in the way that we were intended to walk.
It’s not a matter of whether or not they exist and are for today. History is replete with people receiving a gift and then building a ministry out of it. But gifts are temporary in their very nature.

Lifestyle is what we are called to, not gifting.
Think about buying a house. You give the seller an “earnest money” check to show that you are serious. But the house does not become yours until you have completed the rest of the transaction. Gifts are just the earnest money in anticipation of the lifestyle.

Soo...., do you want to know what the lifestyle is?
Me too.
But I am committed to learning what it is.
We will either get past the glass ceiling of what we perceive as the low expectations that Yah has for us, or we will continue to repeat everyone else’s experiences.

 

[steve]

Soo...., do you want to know what the lifestyle is?
Me too.
But I am committed to learning what it is.

I will say this, proper patriarchy with responsible ownership of the family is part of the foundation. Please notice the modifiers in bold, without them it is just a system for abuse.

 

[Keith Martin]

I will say this, proper patriarchy with responsible ownership of the family is part of the foundation. Please notice the modifiers in bold, without them it is just a system for abuse.

Amen, brother.

 

[steve]

Guys, for us to take our families to “Healing Ministries” is just as much of an anomaly as Deborah being a Judge in Isreal. It shows failure on the part of those who are to be responsible.

But steve:
14 Is any sick among you? let him call for the elders of the church; and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord:

But of course, THAT’S WHAT THE HEAD OF THE HOUSE IS TO DO BECAUSE THERE IS NO ONE ABOVE HIM IN THE HOUSEHOLD!
No one has the authority over him to command healing in his body, so he takes it to the elders.

 

[Daniel DeLuca]

For some reason, my balderdash detector goes on high alert whenever I hear commercials on the radio, where they are scheduling the Holy Spirit to show up at some event. I can attest that the Spirit does in fact move, when we worship, and I have seen dynamic worship, where it is evident that God's Spirit is in fact moving. We know that when King Saul was attacked by an evil spirit, David could play the harp so well, that the evil spirit would leave him. Too many times though, the Christian radio will be advertising for some venue, some church in town, and of course the miraculous things that are supposed to transpire, can only transpire because of a particular guest they have flown in, who is supposed to have this gift. I think I would rather have the prayers of my wife, or the prayers of two or three fellow BF members, than the laying on of hands from someone who has managed to build up a name for themselves.

 

[FollowingHim]

Guys, for us to take our families to “Healing Ministries” is just as much of an anomaly as Deborah being a Judge in Isreal. It shows failure on the part of those who are to be responsible.

But steve:
14 Is any sick among you? let him call for the elders of the church; and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord:

But of course, THAT’S WHAT THE HEAD OF THE HOUSE IS TO DO BECAUSE THERE IS NO ONE ABOVE HIM IN THE HOUSEHOLD!
No one has the authority over him to command healing in his body, so he takes it to the elders.

I take your point, but I think you're speaking too theoretically and are not tempering this with how we all actually interact in real life.

I well recall myself praying alongside you @steve and several others for one of your close family members at the last retreat I attended, for a particular issue. Was it right for you to take a family member to others for prayer, or allow her to seek that, or accept the offer of it (whichever way it happened)? Or should you have simply prayed for her yourself as head of the household and left it at that? In the same way, I'm happy to seek communal prayer for my own family members - and would be one of the prayer team in that case just as you were central to the communal prayer in the instance I am recalling.

A direct application of the verse you have quoted would be to take the sick person to the local church elders - but when you have no local church elders who would be the sort of people to pray for healing with faith and anoint the sick with oil, it's entirely reasonable to seek such prayer in other settings where believers of faith are gathered, be it a local "revival" meeting or a retreat for polygamists. I wouldn't go to a "healing meeting" expecting it's somehow magically different to anywhere else - but I am willing to go there as a likely place to meet other Christians with firm faith in these matters, possibly (temporary) giftings in this area, but more importantly a willingness to pray communally for healing.

 

[steve]

I well recall myself praying alongside you @steve and several others for one of your close family members at the last retreat I attended, for a particular issue.

I am growing and learning.
I’m not saying that it is a bad thing to pray for each other, but I am finding that the patriarch has much more responsibility than I had ever been taught. That’s why I am sharing this, nobody else seems to have been taught either.

but when you have no local church elders who would be the sort of people to pray for healing with faith and anoint the sick with oil, it's entirely reasonable to seek such prayer in other settings where believers of faith are gathered

There ya go with that “c” word. The church is the body of Yeshua, and only some of the body are in churches.
Who is the arbiter of what qualifies an elder? Choose some spiritually strong men that believe what you believe. I daresay that Yah would consider them to be elder to the rest of the pack.

 

[Daniel DeLuca]

@24:23

and yet Christian leaders all over the world, are promoting these ministries.

Meanwhile the woman sounds like she is possessed by something other then the Holy Spirit, and the words "She is on fire" appear on the screen,

and then we wonder we we are not seeing real revival in the church.

 

[FollowingHim2]

Thanks, Daniel. I'm aware of the kundalini spirit. I've spent some time researching this. I was watching out for it on Friday, just in case. Nothing of that kind happened.

 

[Daniel DeLuca]

Thanks, Daniel. I'm aware of the kundalini spirit. I've spent some time researching this. I was watching out for it on Friday, just in case. Nothing of that kind happened.

I found this from one of the suggestions in the comments section:

 

[FollowingHim]

I am growing and learning.
I’m not saying that it is a bad thing to pray for each other, but I am finding that the patriarch has much more responsibility than I had ever been taught. That’s why I am sharing this, nobody else seems to have been taught either.

I hope, by the time I am as old as you, to have also grown and learnt as much. Seriously, I'm listening.

There ya go with that “c” word. The church is the body of Yeshua, and only some of the body are in churches.
Who is the arbiter of what qualifies an elder? Choose some spiritually strong men that believe what you believe. I daresay that Yah would consider them to be elder to the rest of the pack.

I agree with you. We currently attend a Baptist congregation, and I don't even remember who the official elected "elders" are - but I know who the relatively strong men are who are the true elders. It is those men whom I was referring to. Unfortunately, in this case I'd be more comfortable and confident approaching someone like yourself to act in that capacity. Given our location that is not an option, and I am on the lookout for local Christians of similar levels of faith and conviction. Hence my willingness to meet with Christians in different settings in the hope of meeting them.

 

[Daniel DeLuca]

We could always have another Zoom meeting.

 

[steve]

Given our location that is not an option, and I am on the lookout for local Christians of similar levels of faith and conviction.

Look for men that you can help raise up, you may very well be the “eldest” in your area.
I am adding my prayers to yours, my brother.

 

[steve]

We could always have another Zoom meeting.

That’s always a possibility, but I think that there is an actual transference of something in the spirit when touching is involved. Remember when kerchiefs and aprons that Paul had touched were carried to sick and even demon afflicted people who were healed and delivered.
Ok, I’m seeing that this needs to be a thing. We are on it, Samuel, it’s just going to take some time as I never get home.

 

[steve]

Just an update from the home front.
Today a technician at the clinic told Karin that the X-rays in her chart couldn’t possibly be of her knees, because she was walking on them, that no one with knees that bad could walk. The dr told him to feel her knees and compare them to the chart. He did, then asked her about the pain. She said that she used to have a lot, but then steve prayed for her. At that point he totally blew it off because she believed in faith healing.
Dude, where is your scientific objectivity? You’re the one that claimed that she shouldn’t be able to walk.

 

[FollowingHim]

That’s always a possibility, but I think that there is an actual transference of something in the spirit when touching is involved. Remember when kerchiefs and aprons that Paul had touched were carried to sick and even demon afflicted people who were healed and delivered.
Ok, I’m seeing that this needs to be a thing. We are on it, Samuel, it’s just going to take some time as I never get home.

Thanks Steve.

I was going through St Augustine's "City of God" a while ago, and he spent some time explaining that miraculous healings are real and giving various examples. What was very interesting though was that the majority of his examples were related to relics of saints, or their shrines. That seems weird and idolatrous to a Protestant mind, but really is just the same as the cloth that Paul touched and then was passed on. There is something in physical touch, even second-hand physical touch. Even if it makes no sense to us.

Most of Jesus' healings were carried out using physical touch, with obvious exceptions.

A particularly obscure and probably entirely fictitious example of this, but one that if it is based on any truth at all is very interesting, is the apocryphal Gospel of the Infancy. This is packed full of with stories of people being healed or delivered from demons from contact with the cloths that the infant Jesus was wrapped in, or the water He was bathed in. One very brief example being 6:16-17: "On the morrow the same woman brought perfumed water to wash the Lord Jesus; and when she had washed him, she preserved the water. And there was a girl there, whose body was white with a leprosy, who being sprinkled with this water, and washed, was instantly cleansed from her leprosy". And another, that will appeal to this audience, 10:1-3 "There were in the same city two wives of one man, who had each a son sick. One of them was called Mary, and her son's name was Caleb. She arose, and taking her son, went to the Lady St Mary, the mother of Jesus, and offered her a very handsome carpet, saying 'O my Lady Mary, accept this carpet of me, and instead of it give me a small swaddling cloth.'. To this Mary agreed, and when the mother of Caleb was gone, she made a coat for her son of the swaddling cloth, put it on him, and his disease was cured; but the son of the other wife died." Note that I am not at all claiming that these specific tales are real - there is a reason this 'Gospel' is not considered canonical. It's got some rather wacky content as well as obvious errors. I consider it most likely a work of fiction - but based on principles that were held as factual and important. The fact the tales exist simply illustrates the general emphasis placed on physical touch in matters of healing by the early church.

 

[Daniel DeLuca]

... and of course, we all know that quite a few times, healings occurred by the spoken word. It is true that faith is a key ingredient,


BUT.....

God is not obligated to answer our prayers in the way that today's faith healers would have you believe. The fact that it occurs at all, as evidenced by the incidences that @steve and @julieb have mentioned, is incredible in and of itself. The most abhorrent doctrine of the Faith Healing and Prosperity gospel preachers, is this notion that we ourselves, are little gods. When the Psalmist spoke of being gods, which Jesus Himself quoted, it was speaking to corrupt judges, who were in a position to rule and were making perverted decisions. It was not at all claiming that they had the power to perform miraculous deeds or "Declare" things to be that are not. That is just one area I find that the Charismatic movement is gravely lacking in discernment.

 

[steve]

@Daniel DeLuca, we get it that there are abuses on the far end of the charismatic spectrum.
Can we please just leave them out of the conversation about what is real? It doesn’t add any intelligence to the question of what Yah would have us do.