I'm wondering how you square that with e.g. Isaac taking Rebekah in the account in Genesis 24:64-67? The families knew the situation, but I don't read of anything public(?) Same with Abraham taking Hagar... .
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Prostitution vs adultery
- Thread starter FollowingHim
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It would be very easy for this discussion now to become the hundredth thread saying the same things over again. Let's stick to only what is new and inspired by this passage of scripture.
Zec's logical impasse is that he denies the precept of Covenant.
And that is the undeniable difference. When Covenant is confirmed by sexual union both parties know it, and joyfully affirm that fact.
The difference is more than just the fee, as Solomon points out.
I do not believe that there has to be a public ceremony.
I had intended to make that clear... A public ceremony is good to "set" it in the minds of the community but it is not required.
The proverbs introduce the strange woman in chapter 2.
Pro 2:16 To deliver thee from the strange woman, even from the stranger which flattereth with her words;
It then picks it back up in chapter 5 and then delves deeper into the topic of adultery here in chapter 6. It continues on though in chapter 7 and reveals that this strange woman is indeed married. She is seeking to devour him through adultery.
Pro 7:5 That they may keep thee from the strange woman, from the stranger which flattereth with her words.
Pro 7:6 For at the window of my house I looked through my casement,
Pro 7:7 And beheld among the simple ones, I discerned among the youths, a young man void of understanding,
Pro 7:8 Passing through the street near her corner; and he went the way to her house,
Pro 7:9 In the twilight, in the evening, in the black and dark night:
Pro 7:10 And, behold, there met him a woman with the attire of an harlot, and subtil of heart.
Pro 7:11 (She is loud and stubborn; her feet abide not in her house:
Pro 7:12 Now is she without, now in the streets, and lieth in wait at every corner.)
Pro 7:13 So she caught him, and kissed him, and with an impudent face said unto him,
Pro 7:14 I have peace offerings with me; this day have I payed my vows.
Pro 7:15 Therefore came I forth to meet thee, diligently to seek thy face, and I have found thee.
Pro 7:16 I have decked my bed with coverings of tapestry, with carved works, with fine linen of Egypt.
Pro 7:17 I have perfumed my bed with myrrh, aloes, and cinnamon.
Pro 7:18 Come, let us take our fill of love until the morning: let us solace ourselves with loves.
Pro 7:19 For the goodman is not at home, he is gone a long journey:
Pro 7:20 He hath taken a bag of money with him, and will come home at the day appointed.
There is GREAT danger in taking a woman whom you do not know, whose history you do not know, whose current status you do not know.
A Strange woman will tell you all that you want to hear in order to get what she wants from you. You should do your due diligence to find out from those that know her, what her true history and status is or you could be caught in adultery without intending it.
I do not think that it is a sin to be with an unmarried prostitute. But as this passage reveals, a married woman may meet you with the attire of a prostitute and cause you to fall into sin.
The wisdom then is to avoid prostitutes altogether so that you avoid this trap.
We see that instruction in chapter 5.
Pro 5:15 Drink waters out of thine own cistern, and running waters out of thine own well.
Pro 5:16 Let thy fountains be dispersed abroad, and rivers of waters in the streets.
Pro 5:17 Let them be only thine own, and not strangers' with thee.
Pro 5:18 Let thy fountain be blessed: and rejoice with the wife of thy youth.
Pro 5:19 Let her be as the loving hind and pleasant roe; let her breasts satisfy thee at all times; and be thou ravished always with her love.
Pro 5:20 And why wilt thou, my son, be ravished with a strange woman, and embrace the bosom of a stranger?
This is my take away from the beginning of Psalms...
Because intent matters.
Prostitute has immoral job, while adultress doesn't.
Pregnant prostitute has only bastard, while who is father in case of pregnant adultress? Will adultress try to deceive her husband?
There is no deceit with prostitute, just immoral act.
Woman if she fancies another man can always divorce. Divorce itself may be immoral, but it's honest act. She wants another without hiding it as adultress.
And don't forget swingers who exchange wives. Immoral, but honest.
Even in case of dead man intent matters. There is big difference between murder and accident which causes death.
That was my fault for forgetting the difference of opinion. I was writing it late at night. I am leaning that intercourse is binding and therefore one flesh union does equal marriage and marriage equals one flesh union. Those are synonymous phrases for me. But it can be nullified by headship. Same way a vow can be nullified by headship. But understand it is minority view and I am sorry for steering the discussion from intended goal.
I like this line of reasoning. I don’t have the scripture to back it up yet.
That criticism would be easier to take if the other sides in this debate were criticized for having no thesis based in scripture whatsoever. No one else has even the beginnings of an idea of how to form a valid “marriage” in even the best of circumstances, at least not one that has any basis in the Bible.
So for now I remain the subject matter expert. I look forward to someone challenging my supremacy but so far no one will come forward with a scripturally based alternative.
And yes, that was a challenge if anyone is up for a review of the latest research.
Except that a divorce is dissolving a one flesh union, not a “marriage”.
Re: Covenant and marriage
Like it or not, there is a contract when she says "yes," to the offer, and gets on the camel to head to her new home and husband.
You ignore the entire story of the un-named servant, given "power of attorney" to "act in the name of" his mater, Abraham, and contract for a bride for his son, Isaac.
Like it or not, there is a contract when she says "yes," to the offer, and gets on the camel to head to her new home and husband.
How can you manage to ignore the entire chapter of Genesis 24? And not for the first time. This, and the preceding chapter outlining "offer and acceptance" as the basis for contract, and the first recorded land deed in human history, form a large part of the basis for the entirety of English Common Law.
That is the attitude that sadly renders further discussion on "sex = marriage" impossible. As I said above, let's drop that aspect of the discussion and focus only on what is uniquely inspired by the passage in question.
I don’t. You do. Particularly the part of the story at the end where is says he took her to his mother’s tent and then she became his woman. Obviously everything that happened before that not having accomplished that. If you’re going to appeal to the authority of scripture then you need to have read the scripture.
It’s a challenge. Someone needs to offer a Biblically based explanation. We can’t talk about the difference between prostitution and adultery if we can’t explain the difference between a prostitute and a wife.
I will be happy to ignore that though and we can talk prostitutes. That sounds fun.
Fair point.
- A wife is a woman who you sleep with on the understanding that she is committed to you for an indefinite period of time (even if you think divorce is permissible, that's not the plan, your understanding is that the two of you are a thing for as long as possible if not forever).
- A prostitute is a woman who you sleep with on the understanding that you are paying for her time for the next hour and she is giving you no commitment whatsoever beyond that time on the clock.
And this then shows us the difference between sex with another man's wife, and sex with a prostitute. Sex with another man's wife is sex with a woman who is committed to another man. Sex with a prostitute is sex with a woman who is NOT committed to another man. The commitment / intent makes the difference.
What Bible version are you quoting from?
Ignoring the obligatory condescension:
Duh.
That's like saying "He put the eggs, and the flour in the pan, and mixed them, and then put them in his mothers oven and then it became a cake." Obviously everything that happened before having not accomplished that.
As if B did not follow A. Pure flatulence.
This is why you don't have reasoned discussions with someone so hubris filled as to claim:
Back to "Set Ignore = <ON>"
Duh.
That's like saying "He put the eggs, and the flour in the pan, and mixed them, and then put them in his mothers oven and then it became a cake." Obviously everything that happened before having not accomplished that.
As if B did not follow A. Pure flatulence.
How about trying to understand the concept of logical sequence, and necessary but not sufficient conditions? Like the fact that he could not (unless he was Zec-like) manage to consummate with her without her actually having agreed to the marriage and ridden on a camel for days. "Contract," and Covenant.
This is why you don't have reasoned discussions with someone so hubris filled as to claim:
You continue to ignore such. And then make idiotic claims like the above.
Back to "Set Ignore = <ON>"
There were witnesses - Laban (her brother) and mother - knew of the situation. They accepted it - Rebekah also agreed - the brother and mother received “expensive gifts” from Abraham.
Let’s say Issac took Rebekah in secret. Are they married? No - he would have to get permission from her covering. The way Abraham did it for his son - Issac - was righteousness in action.
do you see a requirement that there has to be a witnesse when a man takes a captive woman for himself?
When you go forth to war against your enemies, and the Lord your God has delivered them into your hands, and you have taken them captive, and you see among the captives a beautiful woman, and have a desire for her to have her as your wife, 12 then you are to bring her home to your house, and she is to shave her head and trim her nails. 13 She must also discard the clothing of her captivity and shall remain in your house, and mourn her father and her mother for a full month. After that you may have relations with her, and be her husband, and she will be your wife. (MEV Deuteronomy 21)
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No - not for all situations. The difference with the captive woman (besides that she's a captive woman) is that she has no covering, because the scripture states her father and mother died. She is a servant in the man's household. If the man wishes to have sexual relations with her (at least a month later), her status is upgraded to wife.