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Pre Trib., Mid Trib. Or Post Trib.

I don't have a lot of band width due to storms in our area so I'll be brief and try to comment more later. I'll agree with @Scarecrow on pretty much everything except the seventh trump. The passage in 1 Thess 5 dealing with the last trump is a specific reference to a mow'ed (a divinely appointed day) and is a Jewish idiom for feast of trumpets and the 100th blast as is the reference to no man knows the day nor the hour. It is coincidental only regarding the 7th trumpet judgement.

Additional info to think about. If the two witnesses killed in Rev 11 are part of the 144000, they are sealed and commissioned in Rev 7 (6th seal), preach for 3 1/2 years before being killed by Apollyon Rev 11 (who first appears as part of the 5th trumpet Rev 9 ) then the false prophet and dragon try to exterminate the Jews for another 3 1/2 years (Rev 12:6) ending at Armageddon.

To check my math, count back from Armageddon. "A" Day -- 3 1/2 yrs = Anti C in temple & death of 2 Witnesses. -- 2 Guys preaching for 3 1/2 yrs from commission = 6th seal thus 7 years between 6th Seal and Armageddon. If true, everything pre 6th Seal is tribulation, 6th Seal is Great Tribulation just as Matt 24 states, including the "episynagoge" after great T. And everything else is 7 years of wrath/great wrath till Armageddon beginning with the 1st mention of Judgement occurring which is the 1st Trumpet Judgement. (The actual first mention is in the 5th Seal but it states that judgement is being held in check and hasn't started yet)

Also compare the angels holding back the four winds Rev 7 from hurting the earth, sea and trees, with the first 4 Trumpet Judgements. Trumpets can't begin till the seals are done, unlike the first 5 bowls which begin after the 5th T Judgement and the 6th and 7th Bowls and Trumpets are interdependent.

When we have wifi back I'll try to post a chart I've been working on showing this timeline
 
Scarecrow said:
The resurrection/rapture event does not take place until the last (seventh) trumpet sounds.
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I considered the idea for a while that Paul's "last trumpet" was Revelation's 7th trumpet, but I couldn't get the timing to match up with Matt. 24, in light of the gathering following the 6th seal. This coincides with the sealing (not necessarily the immediate saving) of the 144K Israelites. The way I see it, the Church is raptured after the sixth seal, and Israel is fully redeemed at the seventh trumpet (fulfilling the mystery of God: that both Jews and Gentiles will be saved).

Other than that, I agree about Revelation 12, 13, and 14 as being sort of a parenthetical flashback. But I'm a bit confused about your equating of Revelations 8 (first four trumpets) and 16 (the seven bowls). I know some people do equate the trumpets and the bowls (because they have similarities), but you earlier indicated the rapture came between the trumpets and the bowls, so I don't see how you can also equate the two.

@Verifyveritas76, thanks for clarifying your timeline. Main thing I'm having trouble understanding is the antichrist being in the temple 3 1/2 years after the 6th seal (which immediately follows the Great Tribulation), when Matt 24 says that the Abomination of Desolation precedes the Great Tribulation.

As for the two witnesses... my current understanding is that the beginning of the vision of their ministry (starting with John eating the open scroll at the end of Ch 10, then measuring the temple in Ch 11) is another temporary flashback in the chronological account, back to the Abomination of Desolation, then running forward to the end of their ministry (and the end of the 6th trumpet = 2nd woe = fulfillment of the mystery of God) which probably marks the end of the 70th week. This section is then followed by another flashback (chapters 12-14) and the narrative resumes in ch. 15 with the bowls, which occur after the end of the 70th week. I've tried placing the witnesses in the first half of the 70th week, so that they are killed at the Abomination of Desolation, but that also messes up the timeline, since the AoD occurs before the 5th seal, but the witnesses aren't killed until the 6th trumpet...

Anyway... here's an interesting thought. The book of Daniel is said to be sealed up until the time of the end. That implies it won't be fully understood until then. In Revelations, we see an end time vision of a scroll being unsealed. Could that scroll represent the understanding of Daniel's prophecies? In other words, once the events of the seven seals occur, perhaps it will cause the interpretation of Daniel to become revealed?
 
Shibboleth said:
@Verifyveritas76, thanks for clarifying your timeline. Main thing I'm having trouble understanding is the antichrist being in the temple 3 1/2 years after the 6th seal (which immediately follows the Great Tribulation), when Matt 24 says that the Abomination of Desolation precedes the Great Tribulation.
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There is a distinct difference IMHO between the Revealing of the Antichrist when he takes away the daily sacrifice (Dan 11:31, Dan 12:11 & Dan 8:13,14) and when he sits in the Temple as God. Dan 12:11 indicates that there are 1290 days between these events. I believe that the Revealing will happen on or around the 9th of Av which would place the AC sitting in the Temple as god around Passover 3 1/2 years in.
 
Shibboleth said:
I've tried placing the witnesses in the first half of the 70th week, so that they are killed at the Abomination of Desolation, but that also messes up the timeline, since the AoD occurs before the 5th seal, but the witnesses aren't killed until the 6th trumpet...
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The passages (listed above) in Daniel 11:31, 12:11 and 8:12-14 are the key to the timeline of the 7 years. The link that Christ refers to in Matt 24:15 takes you to Dan 11:31 which is the only passage in Daniel that has a man, standing in the temple and the A o D. The additional connection between these other 3 passages is the removal of the daily sacrifice. It doesnt seem like much until you begin studying it, but this sacrifice is a huge clue and definitively ties the 3 passages together.

If the revealing of the Antichrist is truly at the Mid Point, where he is (1)standing in the temple, (2)takes away the daily sacrifice and (3)places the abomination that maketh desolate, when you get to Dan 12:11 the verse could be read only 2 ways.
The first would be that the taking away of the DS and setting up the A o D is both the revealing and the sitting. The two events would occur simultaneously and there would be 1290 days to ? Maybe Armageddon? This reading is a possibility only if you ignore the other passage in Daniel dealing with this same sacrifice, Dan 8.
In Dan. 8 it is characterized as a transgression of desolation, but with that very slight caveat, the rest of the pieces match the other passages. You have the little horn who is a prince, who magnifies himself to the prince of the host, he takes away the daily sacrifice, an army or host is given to him (matching the description in Dan 11:31), and the sanctuary and hosts are trodden under foot. The key here is that he is in possession of the temple for 2300 days and then the sanctuary is cleansed. (This passage is often attributed to Antiochus Epiphanes. However a little bit of study will show that he came nowhere near the 2300 days of occupancy. Though there are many similarities, his occupancy was at best around 1100 days, about a 47% match)
IF the revealing of the AC is the same event as the A o D (where he sits in the Temple at the Mid point) Daniel 8 states clearly that the AC is in charge of the Temple for a period of 6 Years and 3 Months. This takes you to 2 Years and 9+ Months past Armageddon!!! This would clearly be a bust in light of Rev. 19:20

The other way to read Dan 12:11 is that there are two events involving the same man and they are 1290 days apart. I.e.
And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, till the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.
IF it is understood this way, and the revealing happens around the 9th of Av, (50 days before the 7 years start with a Feast of Trumpets) the A o D would happen around the middle of Nisan (Passover) at Mid Point, and the cleansing of the sanctuary 2300 days later would fall around the Festival of Lights in the 6th year of Jacobs Week of Troubles, approximately 9-10 months before the Final Feast of Trumpets and Armageddon. (The Festival of Lights originated at the end of Antiochus Epiphanes occupancy, the forerunner and type of the AC)
This scenario would give the perfect background for the prophecy of Joel 2 &3 to be fulfilled. Somehow the AC is evicted from the temple and the Jews cleanse and sanctify it for the Messiah to once again come through the eastern gate (Ez 46). Obviously this would give the AC an actual reason to send the frog like spirits to gather the armies together to assault Jerusalem and wipe the Jews from the map once and for all. (It makes no sense for the AC to gather the armies to assault Jerusalem if the AC is still in control of Jerusalem) They are intercepted at Megiddo for the Battle of Armageddon and the 7 years are finished. The 9-10 months would be adequate time to move a 200,000,000 man army on horseback down the dried up riverbed of the Euphrates.
This scenario also provides a perfect timeline for the Revealing between Tribulation and Great Tribulation, then the Rapture or episynogoge (super gathering) before 3 1/2 years of Wrath, then the A o D @ the Mid Point followed by 3 1/2 yrs of Great Wrath.

Additional reading relating to the start of the 7 years can be found in Ezekiel 7-9. Pay close attention to the Angel with the seal of God. The only other place I've found this Angel is in Rev. 7, the 6th Seal. This also explains the well known phrase, "Judgment Must begin at the House of God" found in 1 Peter4:17.

The biggest problem IMHO with the standard 7 year model is that it tries to cram too much into the 7 years, there is no buildup to it, tribulation is not the same thing as wrath, we generally don't understand the role that the Feasts play in these years, and nobody wants to be tried and afflicted or to suffer for the cause of Christ.
 
Shibboleth said:
As for the two witnesses... my current understanding is that the beginning of the vision of their ministry (starting with John eating the open scroll at the end of Ch 10, then measuring the temple in Ch 11) is another temporary flashback in the chronological account, back to the Abomination of Desolation, then running forward to the end of their ministry (and the end of the 6th trumpet = 2nd woe = fulfillment of the mystery of God) which probably marks the end of the 70th week. This section is then followed by another flashback (chapters 12-14) and the narrative resumes in ch. 15 with the bowls, which occur after the end of the 70th week. I've tried placing the witnesses in the first half of the 70th week, so that they are killed at the Abomination of Desolation, but that also messes up the timeline, since the AoD occurs before the 5th seal, but the witnesses aren't killed until the 6th trumpet...
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I feel your pain!:mad::mad::mad: The only answer that I have come up with is that the A o D is a person who is highlighted in 2 separate events. The revealing when he removes the daily sacrifice (Matt. 24:15/Dan 11:31) and the event where he magnifies himself as god in the temple and fulfills the A o D.

I would say that the Revealing happens before the 5th Seal, and the A o D cannot happen before the 5th Trumpet Judgement. Though the AC has power and authority on earth as a king or prince before the 5th Trumpet Judgement, he must wait for the dragon that comes out of the pit to kill the 2 witnesses and give him the power to create the image and enforce the mark and do all the miracles etc.
 
I’m not studied enough on this to give an answer but I always thought pre trib. From what I’m reading here I have a lot of studying to do...
 
Rolling rapture? hmm

I’m mid trib, after seal six, before seal 7. Seal seven should be a nasty time period. But, I don’t have a crystal ball and unlike others, I haven’t been given any first hand info from heaven. So, I am willing to listen and hear what’s being said. I haven’t studied it since 2007-2008, so I’m a little rusty on the subject.
 
I haven't a settled opinion on the interpretation of Revelations. But I have been forced to reckon with a few of the more dangerous false teachings on it.

Stay far away from preterism; i.e. it was all fulfilled in ad 70 and it's all (or almost all) in the past.

The post AD 70 historical interpretation approach, especially the everything has occurred already except the final judgment, is also both foolish optimism and dangerous in that it puts the Mark in the past.

ANY viewpoint which puts the mark of the beast as having happened in the past and something we don't need to worry about is dangerous. For the sake of not having to emotionally contend with the horror of such a time, they'll put at risk peoples souls who now have excuse to ignore God's deadly warnings.

Christian's will face the mark and the consequences of not taking it, that's the whole point of God providing the warning.
 
rockfox said:
ANY viewpoint which puts the mark of the beast as having happened in the past and something we don't need to worry about is dangerous.
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I read, somewhere in my past, the “mark of the beast” was a phrase, not a physical alteration of some type. Mark on the forehead means that you worship the anti-christ because you want to worship him. You fully accept him as a god or something. Mark of the beast on the hand/forearm was “I will bow down and go thru the motions but I’m only doing so I don’t have to suffer the consequences”.

But I can’t remember where I read that.
 
Phillip said:
I read, somewhere in my past, the “mark of the beast” was a phrase, not a physical alteration of some type. Mark on the forehead means that you worship the anti-christ because you want to worship him. You fully accept him as a god or something. Mark of the beast on the hand/forearm was “I will bow down and go thru the motions but I’m only doing so I don’t have to suffer the consequences”.

But I can’t remember where I read that.
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Ya I don't buy that for a second. It's not some philosophical or abstract thing. It's very literal. We can know that because a) idolatry is wrong on its own anyway b) the beast is forcing it c) you have to have it to buy or sell, very literal and d) the powers that be are establishing the legal and technical foundations to establish a literal mark.

Obviously, don't accept the beast as god or worship anyone but God. But don't think that because you ostensibly worship God that you can take a physical mark; God wouldn't have provided such dire warnings to His followers if that were the case. Those warnings are otherwise true for those who worship Satan.
 
The technology is now available to track all buying and selling. The Beast financial system will most likely be a blockchain-based electronic money system - blockchain is the technology behind Bitcoin, and means that every transaction ever is all recorded and searchable, so there is no way to hide anything, the government can know everything you do with money. This is coming very fast, and will likely be kicked off by a new financial crisis that destabilises the present economic system and causes people to move to a single global monetary system that is run in such a fashion as a solution. The "mark" will most likely be some sort of ID system for this - could be a physical mark or implanted microchip in the head or hand, or could refer to biometrics using your existing unique identifiers of the head and hand (facial recognition and fingerprints). We can't know for sure at this stage, you never know what prophecy truly means until after it's happened. But this I believe is highly probable.
 
FollowingHim said:
The technology is now available to track all buying and selling. The Beast financial system will most likely be a blockchain-based electronic money system - blockchain is the technology behind Bitcoin, and means that every transaction ever is all recorded and searchable, so there is no way to hide anything, the government can know everything you do with money. This is coming very fast, and will likely be kicked off by a new financial crisis that destabilises the present economic system and causes people to move to a single global monetary system that is run in such a fashion as a solution. The "mark" will most likely be some sort of ID system for this - could be a physical mark or implanted microchip in the head or hand, or could refer to biometrics using your existing unique identifiers of the head and hand (facial recognition and fingerprints). We can't know for sure at this stage, you never know what prophecy truly means until after it's happened. But this I believe is highly probable.
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Gotta love technology.
A bank account without a social security number is not possible as far as I can tell here. This will probably be next.
https://trendingposts.net/trending-technology-news/swedes-are-inserting-microchips-in-their-hands/
It is hard to accept payment for anything when banks impose unlawful policies like this, but with a chip it would be impossible, not just hard.
 
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